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I know that in a perfect world, a neat little weapon like our Saiga 12's would cycle all ammo like a champ. Outside of the obvious manufacturing shortcomings that must be addressed, we jump through many a hoop trying to make this weapon as reliable as possible, and possibly even feed the lightest of (bird-shot) loads. There are even some among us that have the know-how to manipulate this cold steel in a way to accomplish this lofty goal. Why lofty, I say? Simple; this is not a perfect world, this is a world infatuated with war, and we own a piece of that legacy. Along these lines (in most cases), your shotguns are fine, it is you that have the problem. Least we forget, this weapon was created to destroy a man, not a bird, in the heat of battle. Birdshot has no place in a battle! If you want a plinker, go out and get yourself a 22 rifle. Alas, most, if not all of us here, are not at war. None-the-less, what you have purchased is a one shot, human being destroying, machine of death. Anything less than what your shoulder will curse you for firing, has no place coming out of the business end as far as its designer was concerned. I promise you, if you shoot the heaviest of loads, your shotgun will cycle just fine. Stop being cheap, and stop being panty waste. "Cowboy up" and go grab some hi-vel 00 buck or slugs, and lay waste to your inanimate targets.

 

That is all...

Edited by myndseye
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I agree in that to me a tactical shotgun is designed for CQB and not trap shooting. I understand #00 buck can be expensive to practice with, but that is what the tactical shotgun is designed for IMHO. If I want to hunt birds or trap shoot, I use my 1187 which was designed for these purposes. Bottom line for me, tactical shotguns for tactical purposes, pumps and semi's like an 1187 for all other functions.

 

-Cheers

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The best weapon in the world will due you very little good if you can't afford to train with it.

 

But I also use it on birds, clays, plinking, home defense, etc.

 

By the way, I'm typing this from a base in Iraq right now. And given the chance I'd trade my M4 for my AKS-12 in a heartbeat.

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I am glad someone said this. Being new to the shotty world I had envisioned my S12

as a HD weapon/Sporting Clays/Small or Large game/Pretty much anything gun.

Don't get me wrong. I love this gun. but I have also come to the conclusion that I need

to get an 870 or something similar to do the other more sporting activities.

I will still give it a try with the Saiga but I agree with myndseye about this being a purpose driven weapon.

 

You don't use a sledgehammer to drive tacks.

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Yes, it was designed to fire, and even states in the paperwork that comes with it, 3" magnum and 2 3/4" magnum shells. In the user's guide where it tells you how to use the gas setting knob, it only mentions magnum shells. I've never seen 2 3/4" shells marked as "magnum," (I'm new to shutguns.. donno) but I'm assuming they mean high brass.

 

So they were never intended to fire the low-brass WW specials.

 

However, I can't afford to "play" with it, or "train" with it, very often, with the expensive high-brass loads. At WW, the Winchester Super X is $5 for a box of 5. that's $25 for 25. The low-brass is $25 for 100!!!! Don't get me wrong, I ordered 250 rounds of 2 3/4" Nobel 00 buck, but I can't afford to run through it like that.

 

If RAAC is willing to foot the bill for CGW to "fix" my S12 so that it will cycle the low-brass stuff reliably, it will then become a more enjoyable firearm that I can "play" with to my heart's delight. It will also mean more people will get to see and experience, and potentially create more sales for RAAC. I don't think that is "cheap." I do, however, believe it to be wise.

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I know that in a perfect world, a neat little weapon like our Saiga 12's would cycle all ammo like a champ. Outside of the obvious manufacturing shortcomings that must be addressed, we jump through many a hoop trying to make this weapon as reliable as possible, and possibly even feed the lightest of (bird-shot) loads. There are even some among us that have the know-how to manipulate this cold steel in a way to accomplish this lofty goal. Why lofty, I say? Simple; this is not a perfect world, this is a world infatuated with war, and we own a piece of that legacy. Along these lines (in most cases), your shotguns are fine, it is you that have the problem. Least we forget, this weapon was created to destroy a man, not a bird, in the heat of battle. Birdshot has no place in a battle! If you want a plinker, go out and get yourself a 22 rifle. Alas, most, if not all of us here, are not at war. None-the-less, what you have purchased is a one shot, human being destroying, machine of death. Anything less than what your shoulder will curse you for firing, has no place coming out of the business end as far as its designer was concerned. I promise you, if you shoot the heaviest of loads, your shotgun will cycle just fine. Stop being cheap, and stop being panty waste. "Cowboy up" and go grab some hi-vel 00 buck or slugs, and lay waste to your inanimate targets.

 

That is all...

 

i hear what you're saying, but i bought this gun specifically to waste ammo. when using nothing but buckshot and slugs you go though dollar bills faster than when at the titty bar, sure it gives you a boner, but at the end of the night your wallets empty.

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I bought this weapon for it's versatility. Except for the first outting with 100 rnds of Winchester wally world universal, it has performed flawless with 3" mag, reg 3" 4, 00 buck and , 2.75" slug 4, 00, and bird 7.5 and 8 loads. I even did all mixed up loads in my agp 10 rnds on setting 1 and no problem cycling. So far eats all except the winchester Universal. I am satisfied and maybe one of the lucky ones, by not getting an Ivan(vodka) special.

 

I've heard from Mr. Davidson (20rnd drum dude) that being able to cycle all types on 1 isn't good long term but gunfixrs knob will correct this. I've read in another thread that with gunfixers gas knob it will even help cycle the winchester universal crap.

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Mine has always shot everything I put through it. The only thing I had to kick it down to setting 2 for was cheap S&B 1oz slugs, and #8 bird shot.

 

I still bought a gunfixer adjustment knob just because I like the idea of not having to use a tool to change the setting.

 

The last thing I'm going to point out is that some of these 2 hole guns have been reported to not even reliably shoot 3" shells on setting 2. I don't think that's a matter of what the weapon was designed for, I think that was a manufacturing and quality control mistake.

 

No big deal though, if everybody on the "outside" gets the idea that these things are too finicky and not worth buying, maybe the price will come down and I can buy a few more. :)

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A gun is a tool, its purpose is limited by the mind of the user.

 

Do everything you can with them.

 

Why not have your cake and eat it too?

 

As a note i can say that I honestly don't feel limited by being restricted to federal and remington value packs... But then i have a proper 4 hole gun, not to rub it in the faces of those who need work done.

Edited by Nailbomb
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I agree that it is a tool. The more versatile that tool can be though, the better IMO. I'm not saying that the lightest Wally World stuff is the best choice for combat (it's not), but having a weapon that will function with whatever ammo you can get is a good thing IMO. In a survival situation, you may not get to choose what ammo is available.

 

Having been on both ends of a shotgun in a combat situation (read that as "I have shot and been shot by a 12 ga in combat"), I can tell you that the buck rounds do their job.....BUT.......at CQB range, I can attest to the effectiveness of smaller shot as well. I was hit with #6 shot I think it was. Granted, it was through my palm and it was at point blank range, so the wad and everything went through too. If it had been a slug or 00 buck, the result would have been the same. The heavier shot IS better for deeper penetration at range though. I think we'd all agree on that.

 

For home defense, I've heard some people recommending something with enough power to stop the bad guy, but not too much more, so that the pellets don't continue through a couple walls and hit someone or something you don't want. Personally, #4 buck is about right for me I think. At least for HD.

 

I agree that having been originally designed to be a combat shotgun, it was intended to use heavier rounds. Let's not forget however that they market them to sportsmen too. As such, they must have anticipated that birdshot was going to be used by some people. As I said, the more versatile the tool, the better. As a survival tool, you might use it to kill small game. Birdshot is great for that.

 

So if God forbid I ever have to use mine for HD or personal defense/survival, I hope I have access to heavier rounds. If I don't, I'm glad my Saiga will function with pretty much anything. Otherwise, it's just an expensive club.

 

Just the view from my soapbox. LOL

 

 

Corbin

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I figured that my statements would touch on a few nerves. Don't get me wrong, I whole heartedly agree that a firearm that eats everything reliably, is preferable to one that is ammo selective, but I still refer you back to this weapons original design and purpose. Although they are marketed to the civilian world now, I don't think that marketing trumps design for the true value of a product. Since this forum seems to be a great resource for an aspiring purchaser of a new S-12, I really felt that my statement would bolster the reputation of this fine weapon. It was starting to sound like they were unreliable guns, that were to be sent directly to the gunsmith, immediately upon purchase. As I noted before, there are some manufacturing issues of note, but largely the problems surrounding the gun were from the gun being used out of spec.

Edited by myndseye
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I just don't like limiting something like this to one purpose. it seems very narrow minded to me. Especialy after seeing how well it can function in a sporting environment. I don't know ANYONE who can not benifit from having a reliable, durable, robust, smooth barrel autoloading shotgun.

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I think if many of the recent Saiga 12s were made to specs, many wouldn't be having issues with them not cycling. It's a great design, depite the AK styled safety, which I've never cared for. Now that I'm a lefty, I like it even less. That notwithstanding, the AK design is a robust and very durable setup. Little has changed in over 60 years now. That alone should stand testiment to its durability and reliability.

 

 

Corbin

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i hear what you're saying, and i can't say you're wrong. i've got a 20ga, so ammo is harder to find, but about the same price for defense loads

 

i got a saiga for a few reasons:

 

1. ideal for home defense with buckshot

2. fun for clays

3. c'mon...it's AK. supposed to be as reliable as a glock

3. deer slugger if i decide to tag along on a hunt

 

for it's #1 purpose, its 100% with buckshot.

 

100% with slugs and 3" birdshot

 

it's still fun to shoot clays, even with a fail to feed every mag or two.

 

i still want to shoot alot more heavy loads, but it seems like shooting 100pks of walmart ammo is the holy grail of saigas. cheap birdshot is just the icing on the cake. for it's primary purpose, the saiga is a solid choice. even my 12ga 870 sometimes has trouble with winchester 100pks.

 

for my gun, it seems that light loads are make of plastic that's too soft and it gets hung up on gas setting #2. maybe i just need to shoot a few hundred more rounds...maybe i'm just not meant to drink from the grail...

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I figured that my statements would touch on a few nerves.
my nerves are fine, I simply disagree with you. If not one single Saiga 12 gauge was ever imported with the available functionality of 2-3/4" bird shot then maybe you'd have something. But several, if not most cycle federal 7-1/2 walmart bulk pack just fine right out of the box. Mine did, and my friends recently passed the same test. In fact I would dare to say the majority of the guns imported cycle Fed 7-1/2 walmart bulk just fine. The ones that don't are the fluke, not the true intended design.

 

Don't get me wrong, I whole heartedly agree that a firearm that eats everything reliably, is preferable to one that is ammo selective, but I still refer you back to this weapons original design and purpose. Although they are marketed to the civilian world now, I don't think that marketing trumps design for the true value of a product.
The original weapon design was a completely different caliber. Honestly the S12 is more of a HUGE revision than a ground up design. IMO they did a very good job with it. The variance in 12 gauge ammo is greater than about any other caliber, and when the S12 is manufactured correctly they are able to feed & cycle just about everything.

 

Since this forum seems to be a great resource for an aspiring purchaser of a new S-12, I really felt that my statement would bolster the reputation of this fine weapon. It was starting to sound like they were unreliable guns, that were to be sent directly to the gunsmith, immediately upon purchase. As I noted before, there are some manufacturing issues of note, but largely the problems surrounding the gun were from the gun being used out of spec.

MFG errors occur everywhere. Vehicle recalls and TSB's are a very common occurrence even with the big names that most would refuse to admit (Toyota). There's no need to bolster our opinions on these weapons. There are some classy people here doing everything they can to smooth out this MFG glitch. They should all be commended.

 

Candiz: Thank you for jumping out of the crowd and providing the state-side fix.

Clyde/RAAC: Thank you for importing this fine weapon, and doing everything in your power to smooth out any MFG defects.

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I've got a .22 that cycles everything except subsonic CB Caps. Do I bitch? Nope, I rack the slide.

Face it, the El Cheapo ammo was NEVER designed to cycle the Saiga nor did Saiga design the S-12 to reliably cycle cheap shit ammo.

The fact that SOME S-12 do and the rest can be easily modified to cycle crappy ammo with barely a pinch of powder is a testament to its great design.

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  • 1 month later...
I figured that my statements would touch on a few nerves. Don't get me wrong, I whole heartedly agree that a firearm that eats everything reliably, is preferable to one that is ammo selective, but I still refer you back to this weapons original design and purpose. Although they are marketed to the civilian world now, I don't think that marketing trumps design for the true value of a product. Since this forum seems to be a great resource for an aspiring purchaser of a new S-12, I really felt that my statement would bolster the reputation of this fine weapon. It was starting to sound like they were unreliable guns, that were to be sent directly to the gunsmith, immediately upon purchase. As I noted before, there are some manufacturing issues of note, but largely the problems surrounding the gun were from the gun being used out of spec.

Well I've got to admit, I don't have mine yet, I had to put it on layaway, so I came here to check out how I wanted to build it up while I'm waiting. One thing that drew me to the Saiga-12 was the seemingly endless variety of mods a person can do to personalize it. But then I saw thread after thread of reliability issues, so I'm spending a lot of time to prepare myself to know what to do if I do have problems. In the end, it will be more beneficial though, because I do believe that a person should have an intimate working knowledge of any gun they own. I think it's great that there is a site where you can share with others and get good feedback instead of just chasing your tail trying to identify and fix problems on your own! that could get expensive and time consuming real quick and cause a person to just give up and label it as a POS waste. I'm glad someone finally pointed out that there were some made that work out of the box! lol. I was starting to wonder just what the hell I got myself into! I wish there was a support group like this for USAS-12's, but I'm hoping that I'm learning enough that maybe I can start trouble shooting it a bit. It's been a long time since I've shot it. The manual states at the very front it was designed to work with Winchester Super X 00 Buck. There is a LOT of great advice and tips here! Thanks.

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I disagree whole heartedly with the OP. This shotgun was made to kill. It will kill what ever it is pointed at in almost any condition. That is what makes is such a great hunting weapon. I don't just hunt birds on sunny spring days. Some of my best hunting has come in climates that, dare I say most of you won't even leave the house. The Saiga line of shotguns have always brought home the meat while I have watched the benelli's either freeze up or gum up. It should be noted that before switching to the Saiga I used an old remington 870 police riot 18" barrel to accomplish my hunting task. A well made gun just needs to be shot. It does not matter if I am using light bird shot to enhance my winged animal skills or slugs for larger targets the Saiga line of shotguns just keep working.

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I am glad someone said this. Being new to the shotty world I had envisioned my S12

as a HD weapon/Sporting Clays/Small or Large game/Pretty much anything gun.

Don't get me wrong. I love this gun. but I have also come to the conclusion that I need

to get an 870 or something similar to do the other more sporting activities.

I will still give it a try with the Saiga but I agree with myndseye about this being a purpose driven weapon.

 

You don't use a sledgehammer to drive tacks.

 

I use a 4lb sledge for everything from tacks to rebar to wooden stakes.

 

It's awesome :)

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Oh, And if you practice, you can get 25s with the S-12 in trap. I got up to 24 but thats me, not the gun. But you have to practice. An 870 isn't going to magically lead the birds better. It's all up to you.

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