Bvamp 604 Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 what do you think guys? ban him? Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 (edited) That's the Ayn Rand philosophy at work for you. I got the right to build the drum and I going to do it because it makes me happy and too damn bad for you and everyone else. After all, make no sacrifices for anyone else as good old Ayn says. By the way she is dead but some people still think she is a godess. She is but one of many many philosophers out there that men have used to justify their selfish actions. The greatest good for the greatest number should apply here. Looks like Froggie was inspired to press on following the NCS written speech after all. That will surely help us all. Gee, I wonder if they let you keep your Saiga shotguns already in hand after they are unilaterally declared a destructive device. Who couldn't see this coming? PS.....Bvamp, I like your new Avatar. As for your question on banning Froggie or his sales ad I would suggest you run the poll system to get broader viewing and input lest you fall under criticism like some others we know here. Wolverine Edited February 19, 2005 by Wolverine Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 they should let you grandfather them in most states. HOWEVER! the chances of us all HEARING about it in TIME to declare them all is questionable, and those of us with other legal troubles wont be eligible to declare thiers and will have to surrender them. Link to post Share on other sites
pistonring8 1 Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Froggie, What are you doing? I have been paging through the laws, and these guys are right. A drum is not "technically" illegal right now but anything that took a drum in the past has been made a DD. I know they sell them for pump shotguns and all right now, but its a whole different story when you pop one into a semi-auto. Especially an AK shotgun. I am all for the homebuilders and fabricators. I am one myself. But this is bad. very, very, bad. You could have done this a bit more descretely. Hell, I could have helped you do this descretely. I hope this doesent draw too much attention to the whole "drum" issue. Its fine to do it in your backyard (or mine) but announcing it just might bring a shitstorm down on the Saiga-12. I dont think you should ban him Bvamp. There are plenty of guys who will push thier rights to the limit. There is nothing "wrong" with making drums and selling them..... Well not totally. If 30 round mags were not available for purchase, I know I would make one for myself but not advertise it. Or sell it to someone I dont know who might make it very public! I say let it roll and see where it goes from here. Mabey it will not create too much attention. I like you froggie, your creative and smart. I would hate to see some idiot shoot up a bank with a 25 round drum of your design and have the ATF trace it back to you. Or see you get banned from this site for building something that is controversial and makes the Saiga-12 more "evil" than it already is. I have to admit, I would love to see how it looks and works but not openly. Feel free to E-mail me with pics. A shotgun is a force very much like the thunder of God himself. The only weekness the operator has is when he must reload. If you take away the weekness, you have an unstoppable force that could rain down destruction on whatever or whomever it chose. I know, you were just kidding right? AHHH hahaha! you got me good on that one! Link to post Share on other sites
froggiefun45 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 BAN ME IF U MUST... BUT i AM SIMPLY LOOKIN ATA PILE OF FLAT PANNLES... iM JUST ADDRESSING MY FLOODED E-MAIL BOX OF QUESTIONS OF DRUMS. AND THE KEY WORD WAS IF. i HAVE NO COPLETE ANYTHING! Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 if your email is full of members requesting them, use your email to talk to them then. You are going to get saiga shotguns banned making a drum for them and publicly advertising it. let me ask you this. if this forum is here to propogate the saiga firearms, why should i permit someone to use the site in a manner that would have them banned? sorry if you dont see the logic. Link to post Share on other sites
froggiefun45 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 i DONT DISSAGREE ONE BIT. i EXPRESS MY SYMPOTHES Link to post Share on other sites
froggiefun45 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 AND I TO HUMBLY LIKE THE POLL THING! Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 ill tell you something else, what makes everybody think that attaching a drum to a saiga ISNT illegal? it is then a "revolving cylinder type" shotgun when you do so, and the USAS was banned quickly under those guidelines... all we need is the posts you are making come up on a BATF search of the internet, and they will write in our shotguns, and not tell anybody. Link to post Share on other sites
pistonring8 1 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Delete this entie Godamned thread! Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Man I hate people who only care about themselves!! Link to post Share on other sites
dodgeturbointerceptor 1 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 I hardly ever agree with you Bvamp. But I suggest if you feel the forum is really threatened by something. Just state your reasons. Make a decision. And shut it down. JI dunno...I'm just a Marine as folks seem to like to point out(as if its bad ) but it IS worse to NOT make a decision than the wrong one. For what its worth. Be Decisive. If you are Protecting. Cool. If you get out of line. People will let you know their opinions. Folks here will rebel for awhile, and get banned. And then when that gets out of control. There wont be any members left. And then I guess you can stop....LOL Good Luck Link to post Share on other sites
Snpr_Matic 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 (edited) Well i kinda look at this subject like this....... SOME people would like to have a drum...BUT, It's not something that you should talk about on a public forum..... I mean lets use a little common sense here, We all know that this is taboo with the BATF, And they are already scouring every damn gun forum on the net, especially since the guy in washington got popped. IMO, i think this thread ought to just be deleted...... Less said, Less mended! Edited February 20, 2005 by Snpr_Matic Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Deleting this thread makes great sense but how do we keep this same problem from happening when more new folks begin posting. And what stops another member from doing what Froggie did? The subject of drums just keeps resurfacing despite airing our dirty laundry and reaching the same conclusion that it is not best not to discuss the topic in the forum, brandish finished product or attempt to sell them to unknown parties who may do god knows what with one. The matter of common sense has been put forth by numerous members. It seems logical and simple but not everyone is willing to comply for the sake of the greater good of all. Maybe if we delete this thread and use the method that anyone who attempts to post drum magazine information or sales will be put on notice that if they persist they will be banned and then actually are will help the forum. But that may not stop that person or another from manufacturing and selling on some other gun forum with similar consequences for all of us. Link to post Share on other sites
Snpr_Matic 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Deleting this thread makes great sense but how do we keep this same problem from happening when more new folks begin posting. And what stops another member from doing what Froggie did? The subject of drums just keeps resurfacing despite airing our dirty laundry and reaching the same conclusion that it is not best not to discuss the topic in the forum, brandish finished product or attempt to sell them to unknown parties who may do god knows what with one. The matter of common sense has been put forth by numerous members. It seems logical and simple but not everyone is willing to comply for the sake of the greater good of all. Maybe if we delete this thread and use the method that anyone who attempts to post drum magazine information or sales will be put on notice that if they persist they will be banned and then actually are will help the forum. But that may not stop that person or another from manufacturing and selling on some other gun forum with similar consequences for all of us. Hence the job of Bvamp....That is the moderators job.... to see that subjects such as this are kept out of the forums..... I know that it is a bad subject, you know that it is a bad subect, Several other people know that this is a bad subject. Some people will get pissed if Bvamp deletes this thread....But ohwell....Let em get pissed, He is the Moderator....Granted, it happens on the other gun boards too, But if he keeps it out of this community, then the others MAY or maynot follow suit, but everybody needs to do their part. Don't get me wrong...I'm no fan of the BATF either, But 99% of us " Gun People" know that if you give the BATF a inch...They will take a mile, Don't give them something else to ban, Once again...LESS SAID, LESS MENDED. For those of you that get pissed, Get over it, Try to think of the other people on this board too, if you want to discuss subjects of this nature, you should do it in private, in person, FTF. Bvamp... Do what you gotta do. Link to post Share on other sites
Grau_Tek 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 considering the fact that this subject has probably been beaten to a bloody pulp before on this forum and many others i think the atf is either already on to your little games or they dont give a shit either way they would have done something by now give the dude a break sorry please dont spank me Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Well now, Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Kill it before it grows!! Link to post Share on other sites
krom32117 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 froggie , why would you want this much personal info on somebody: FIRST AND LAST NAME DRIVERS LICENS NUMBER FULL ADDRESS especially someones drivers license, just curious Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 NARC! Link to post Share on other sites
dodgeturbointerceptor 1 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Frog=BATF! or at least...Frog=French........bad enough...LOL wait?....I thought I was BATF? when is it my turn again? Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 how i see it: the ATF does in fact watch this site. I have seen governmetn IP's here from time to time. They CANT ban the saigas YET, as there ARE no drums made for it. you can bet the day they make them, they will order one (they have to prove there is one and that it does in fact even work), and within a day of them recieving it, the saigas will go off of the market. and yeh, the ID # is a bit strange. you dont need to be 18 to buy a firearm magazine. only ammo, recievers and NFA parts. Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Froggie just wants to make sure he has positive ID so when BATF comes with the search warrant they have the right person and address. After all if you want a drum you must have some other very interesting stuff BATF would like to use in the prosecution. What better way to troll in numbers. Order a drum get a visit. Spend your cash and have the list of buyers emailed to BATF. No wonder he doesn't give a hoot about the rest of the Saiga owners. It fits!! BUSTED !! Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 All this is probly a moot point anyway. Check out this link. http://www.stonycreekarmory.com/ I emailed them and let's just say they confirmed my suspicion. Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 froggie isnt ATF, or is on someone's computer that was arrested recently and is here illegally investigating us for some unknown reason. his IP is on comcast, which is a civilian network. all you need to do is ask him flat out of he is employed by the government in a branch of law enforcement. if he isnt and says he is, he is committing a crime. if he is and doesnt admit it when asked, then he is guilty of entrapment. Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 great, drum kits. well, better order up saiga 12s NOW before they sell them to the public. people just got no respect for others do they. there is one problem with this. the russians. what do you think they are going to do when someone single handedly gets thier newest guns banned from the US? that is a lot of money they will be out of. for a company that owns an entire city that makes guns, you cant tell me that they dont have anyone shady out there that will come around and ask questions? I always knew it, but now you all know too now. people suck Link to post Share on other sites
pistonring8 1 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Wolverine! That "sucks" picture is just to funny!!!! Can we all cut froggie just a little tiny bit of slack? The poor guy is not the ATF or a reckless drum salesman knocking on your door with a suitcase full of "revolving cylinder type magazines." Hes a gun lover like the rest of us. And a fabricator. He might of mentioned a few very controversial things about a certain fabrication project of his, and that was bad, but thats all it was really, just a blurb on a thread about his project to make a drum.... yes, a 25 round drum. This reminds me of "Meet The Parents" when Ben Stiller says, "Why cant I say bomb on a plane?" and then goes "Bomb bomb bom- bom-bom-bom Bomb Bomb!" It is the rest of us including me who are making the biggest spectacle out of this whole issue for all to see. I was kind of tough on Froggie at first too. I vote that we just delete this whole topic and speak of the issue as little as possible from now on. And try not to speak of that witch we do not speak of anymore. Hopefully Froggie will not openly discuss it anymore. Or attempt to sell those horrible things of which we do not speak of anymore. Froggiefun45: Why cant I say drum on the Saiga12 forums? .....Drum drum drum drum! Link to post Share on other sites
yurt_boy 0 Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Just an aside here. It's a common misconception that undercover officers/agents have to tell you their true identity if asked. When I was doing "Ecstasy" cases, the going thought in that subculture was that cops were allowed to deny their cophood for only TWO queries. The third time they were asked, they HAD to admit it, or so the urban legend went. Needless to say, a lot of UC drug deals went like this: Are you a cop? No. Are you a cop? No. Are you a cop? No. Okay, let's get this done then! UC work is ALL about lying. There's no law, rule, reg or court decision that says a cop's got to tell you he's a cop when asked. As for entrapment, it's a legal term that means the government forces someone to commit a crime that they're not otherwise predisposed to commit. For example, if a government agent posed as a criminal and then threatened someone if they didn't commit a crime, only to turn around and arrest that person for committing the crime, that would be entrapment. The suspect could (rightly) argue that they never would have committed the crime if they hadn't been afraid of the agent's threat. With any prosecution, the government has to show that the defendant was predisposed to commit the crime. The government can't just go around talking citizens into committing crimes. They have to be a bit more reactionary than that. Not trying to step on any toes here, just recognized that this is an often-misunderstood legal issue and I think everyone should know their rights and the laws that are out there. I'll shut up now. Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 (edited) So Cops are fabricators too huh? Hmmmmm.......... Let that be a lesson to all you guys trying to pick up a curbside Ho!!! Edited February 22, 2005 by Wolverine Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 its kind of like how a cop isnt liable for not arresting someone for a felony, right? that grey area goes two ways. only the rich get off on those reasons, not the poor. Link to post Share on other sites
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