6500rpm 670 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 The more I read on the different forums, the more it looks like a lot of you are having your Saiga threaded for Rem chokes. Do they pattern that much better than a screw on external fixed chokes, or a PolyChoke? Second part is are all Rem chokes created equally, or does one maker stand out? Last-what seems to be the going rate if I pull the barrel and send it in for modding? (You know is always the last question ). Just curious, other than the shorter barrel length what was at work with the mod............. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 The more I read on the different forums, the more it looks like a lot of you are having your Saiga threaded for Rem chokes. Do they pattern that much better than a screw on external fixed chokes, or a PolyChoke? Second part is are all Rem chokes created equally, or does one maker stand out? Last-what seems to be the going rate if I pull the barrel and send it in for modding? (You know is always the last question ). Just curious, other than the shorter barrel length what was at work with the mod............. I had my barrel cut down from 22 inch to 19 inch and realized that the results were cylinder choke at best. I wanted a tighter pattern, but not as tight as the extra-full of the factory barrel. Having a good gunsmith bore and thread the barrel for a Remchoke seemed logical and wasn't expensive through Colonial Chokes (NOT a recommended company). I believe it was around $80 and included one choke tube which was their equivalent to Remington's tubes. I used a ported Polychoke for sometime and it was worth the money. I just didn't like having to clean the Polychoke's finger-like collets after extended shooting to maintain the proper patterns. A friend gave me a Remchoke kit that had wrench and three choke tubes (he kept one tube) in a neat pouch and I started using it after that. I'll switch modified to full choke or back depending on the type of targets engaged and type of shot used. As far as if certain choke tubes are better, thats probably up to the individual and the choke tube/ shotgun/ load/ target and range parameters. Pulling the Saiga-12 barrel will probably be a mother bear of an operation and there are a few gunsmiths who can bore the barrel while attached to the shotgun. If you use choke tubes be sure to keep a small tube of anti-seize paste handy and lightly coat the tube threads to prevent a stuck tube. Also, check the tube for looseness before and after shooting as I have seen tubes "walk out" a little during some hard shooting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GTOShootr 0 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 (edited) I just wasn't getting a significant result from my Polychoke. It wasn't taking plates down even on X-full like it should have, it was actually hardly noticable. A friend just bought a set of the screw-on Russian chokes and those performed better. We haven't tested them thoroughly on plates but the Mod was smoking clays on the trap field impressively. My next next step might be Rem chokes depending on how the external ones test out on plates. Maybe there are variations from bore to bore, just like there seems to be on every other part of these guns so your gun might respond to a Polychoke better. Edited February 24, 2009 by GTOShootr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigcraig 0 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 For those that have had their S12s modded for Remchokes, who did the work, and how much did it cost? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I like the Poly-Choke for "quick, painless, choke adjustment" That being said, I usually only adjust between Cyl. Bore and X-Full. The ones in the middle I don't screw with! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 While the Poly chokes are good for casual (read: fun) use, they are not consistant enough for heavy duty competition. The point of impact wanders as the constriction changes I've been using Carlson to install tubes in my builds...they include three chokes of your choice with the installation, and can cut barrels back and recrown them at the same time as they do the install. Based on my own experience and the advice of top competitors, I tend to stick with IM for pretty much everything...so I get a Open, a Full, and a IM in my three-packs Alex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigcraig 0 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 While the Poly chokes are good for casual (read: fun) use, they are not consistant enough for heavy duty competition. The point of impact wanders as the constriction changes I've been using Carlson to install tubes in my builds...they include three chokes of your choice with the installation, and can cut barrels back and recrown them at the same time as they do the install. Based on my own experience and the advice of top competitors, I tend to stick with IM for pretty much everything...so I get a Open, a Full, and a IM in my three-packs Alex Info on "Carlson"? Pretty please. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VanKiller 322 Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 I've been installing Rem or Win-choke systems for quite some time now. When done properly on a lathe you get better results than the external thread on systems just because of the bores being slightly off center. Also a much greater range of choke sizes are available with the more common systems. Oh , and the cut and crowning and threading jobs are usually $100............. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigcraig 0 Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 I've been installing Rem or Win-choke systems for quite some time now. When done properly on a lathe you get better results than the external thread on systems just because of the bores being slightly off center. Also a much greater range of choke sizes are available with the more common systems. Oh , and the cut and crowning and threading jobs are usually $100............. You will be hearing from me soon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Tom threaded my S-12 for Win-chokes and did a darn fine job of it. The only thing is I almost always use full choke anyway, it has the punch to deal with stubbern reactive targets. Don't think I would know how to act with a cylinder. Maybe I should put it in for the slug starges? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 www.choketube.com If nothing else, they have some nifty conversion charts if you have an oddball gun and need some chokes Alex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) wraithmaker did mine back in 2007. Cost was $65. I was skeptical and nervous because of Ron's experience with colonial, and tom cole had moved out of NC and hadn't got his new place up yet. But, shoots straight and works great. Rem for me was because I had a bunch of choke tubes around, and I new if I ever needed to buy/sell choke tubes it would be a breeze with rem pattern threads. My only regret was not having the bbl shortened back to 18 inch, or shorter with a perm polychoke install. Wakal, Are you seeing POI changes with birdshot? That would mean it's a pretty large shift, or pretty extensive patterning? Or with slugs? I've got plenty of tubes I could use instead, the poly has just always been easier. But I've never taken the time to pattern mine and haven't noticed a problem (which does NOT mean the POI hasn't changed, only that I haven't noticed anything). I set mine to Mod and rarely change it. Edited February 28, 2009 by kmoore Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted March 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Here's another one to add to the list. I pulled my barrel, cut off the exterior threads, and dressed the end with an endmill. What looked like a well centered barrel when threaded, actually has .020" difference in wall thickness from side to side. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I had a PolyChoke on my first S12, but on the next one I think I'm doing something different. I also noticed that the POI wandered around, especially if you changed the setting. I could change it, and then go back, and it would still sometimes be different. I was thinking of installing an IM tube I had laying around, and just leaving it. With Wakal saying he uses an IM for everything, I'm really thinking on this. My only question for Wakal is this: do you also get good results with slugs through the IM tube? Are they just the hollow based Foster type slugs, or something else? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I had a PolyChoke on my first S12, but on the next one I think I'm doing something different.I also noticed that the POI wandered around, especially if you changed the setting. I could change it, and then go back, and it would still sometimes be different. I was thinking of installing an IM tube I had laying around, and just leaving it. With Wakal saying he uses an IM for everything, I'm really thinking on this. My only question for Wakal is this: do you also get good results with slugs through the IM tube? Are they just the hollow based Foster type slugs, or something else? I've used modified and full choke tubes with Foster slugs (hollow-based soft lead) with good results. I get decent groups with Remington 1 oz. Sluggers even out to 75+ yards. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Fred and I have noticed wandering patterns with the Polychokes (as well as an old Savage Acu-Choke)...zero with slugs, check the pattern, change the constriction, and the pattern shifts. Fred got bored and trued the "petals" of his Acu-Choke to the bore on the lathe, and that made the shift smaller but didn't change it all the way. We have not cut on a Polychoke yet. As noted already, Saiga barrels are not consistantly concentric (nor are the bore diameters consistant). Good thing someone is making Saiga barrels here in the States...I have my checkbook ready for some out of the first batch I run the same chokes in my Huglu hammer double, Winchester SX2 Practical, and my Saigas...all IM. I do admit to changing chokes with my Huglu 104FE, but that is not a run and gun game gun I like Remington Managed Recoil 1 oz slugs best, but picked up a case of Wolf 1 oz slugs recently and they seem to run (and group) fine. Alex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I'd like to add. Have all of you been able to run the standard Rem choke, or have some used the Tru Choke version. The only reason I ask is due to the varriable thickness on the wall of the barrel. I figured if it's bad enough, there may not be sufficient material to install the full sized Rem chokes, but nobody has mentioned it to this point. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Thanks for the info, Ronswin and Wakal. I have the S12 for defensive and 3-gun purposes. I'm going to just install that tube I had laying around, probably permanently(it's not a Remchoke). It's an IM tube from some import gun that I cut the barrel on, I haven't found any others like it, but I'm thinking that for my purposes I won't need any other choke. I have a nice O/U with choke tubes for trap/skeet and/or hunting. I think the POI shift is partly the alignment of the petals, and partly the collar. If the taper bored into the collar doesn't run true with the threads, then as the collar rotates, it will flex the petals around to match, being driven by the threads. For that matter, the outside threads on the base may not be true to the petals. But, based on what I know of production machining practices, more than likely the outside threads are single pointed in a CNC, and therefore true to the OD of the petals, as that would all happen in one operation. The collar is probably tapped, as that is usually a faster process than single point threading, even though single point cutting the threads would be more true. Just my guess, I could be wrong. Nevertheless, the POI moves, and sometimes, you can change settings, and then come back to the same setting, and the POI not be quite where it was the last time you were on that setting. Also, checking the settings with a quality choke guage showed that the collar markings were quite off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Carbon will build up under the fingers (or petals) of the Polychoke during extended firing, especially with shotshells with dirty burning powder. This build up, I believe, also may contribute to the eventual alteration of the shot pattern. I know from experience that it's something of a pain to clean off as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
afroman006 0 Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 How have y'all gone about removing the barrel from the front trunnion in order to chuck it up in a lathe? I assume you just knock the retaining pin out and then press the barrel out like a normal AK? Has anyone built a jig or two to hold everything while pressing apart and together? I am deffinately interested in threading for rem-chokes but am concerned about FUBARing something while pressing apart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GTOShootr 0 Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 How have y'all gone about removing the barrel from the front trunnion in order to chuck it up in a lathe? I assume you just knock the retaining pin out and then press the barrel out like a normal AK? Has anyone built a jig or two to hold everything while pressing apart and together? I am deffinately interested in threading for rem-chokes but am concerned about FUBARing something while pressing apart. I've never worked on an AK. However, pressing the barrel out of my S12 was easier than I thought it would be. I found all the directions I need on this site somewhere thanks to some really good posters, like Tony, Esteban, Cobra, and others. I turned a piece of delrin on my lathe that was the profile of a 12ga shell but extended longer out the chamber by a couple inches. I drifted out the pins and took off the gas block with the gas tube. In a press, I hold the S12 vertically, with a bar behind that piece extending from the chamber while at the same time placing a pipe over the barrel. The bottom of the pipe rests on the front of the receiver. When you press down on the top of the pipe, the receiver gets pressed down, while the bar and the piece in the chamber get pressed up, which move the barrel up. Having an extra set of hands to hold that pile of crap in the press is helpful. Marking the position of the barrel in the receiver before you remove it is needed to make sure it goes back together indexed the same way. Having the barrel out to contour a feed ramp is as good a reason to pop it out as cutting it for chokes. Someone had posted pics of a jig to remove the gas block, I haven't been able to find it again though. I used a block of wood and a mallet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Mostly, I don't bother removing the barrel. My lathe is long enough to chuck up the barreled receiver. It would be easier to do the feed ramp stuff and the extractor notch stuff with the barrel out, but I get it done. Maybe one day, if I can get some more shop room, I'll set up the press equipment to remove barrels. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 We use a half-ton Bridgeport as a base, v-blocks, a brass bar, and a 4-pound hammer to pull barrels. Works great every time! Alex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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