what MOA does a saiga 308 shoot?

[napalm113 0]

I'm thinking about getting a dragonov style rifle, what do you think is a better deal the Romanian PSL's or a saiga 308 with 22" barrel?

[Deadeye 325]

get the saiga

[SOPMOD 254]

Saiga S308 is a 2" gun with readily available high quality ammo and has the advantage of being able to utilize very common and inexpensive standard Kalashnikov parts with very minor modifications.It also has the advantage of high capacity magazines.

 

If there was no Saiga 308 I would be lusting after a heavy barreled Yugo,Valmet or Galil 308 not a PSL.

 

[Azrial 1,091]

get the saiga

Because it is cheaper! Because neither is very likely to shoot MOA... On average you are talking 4-6 MOA.

 

I mean you will read all about many MOA and sub-MOA AK on the gun boards, but they are pretty rare in the real world... I have never seen one, despite being a competitive high power shooter for 4 years. (When someone else was paying the cost of my practice! )

 

That said, a lot of serious shooting, and even warfare, has been conducted with rifles that were far from MOA shooters!

 

I would be all over a Saiga .308, if I could get one at the right price and MSA would build one of their neat little adapters to make it take FAL or G3 mags...

[SOPMOD 254]

get the saiga

Because it is cheaper! Because neither is very likely to shoot MOA... On average you are talking 4-6 MOA.

 

I mean you will read all about many MOA and sub-MOA AK on the gun boards, but they are pretty rare in the real world... I have never seen one, despite being a competitive high power shooter for 4 years. (When someone else was paying the cost of my practice! )

 

That said, a lot of serious shooting, and even warfare, has been conducted with rifles that were far from MOA shooters!

 

I would be all over a Saiga .308, if I could get one at the right price and MSA would build one of their neat little adapters to make it take FAL or G3 mags...

 

If your S308 is shooting 4-6 MOA you must have run over it with your car,LOL

[Azrial 1,091]

get the saiga

Because it is cheaper! Because neither is very likely to shoot MOA... On average you are talking 4-6 MOA.

 

I mean you will read all about many MOA and sub-MOA AK on the gun boards, but they are pretty rare in the real world... I have never seen one, despite being a competitive high power shooter for 4 years. (When someone else was paying the cost of my practice! )

 

That said, a lot of serious shooting, and even warfare, has been conducted with rifles that were far from MOA shooters!

 

I would be all over a Saiga .308, if I could get one at the right price and MSA would build one of their neat little adapters to make it take FAL or G3 mags...

 

If your S308 is shooting 4-6 MOA you must have run over it with your car,LOL

Perhaps! Perhaps that is the final reliability test that they must all have to pass at the factory!

Yours must be one of the near mythical ones I always read about... Lucky you!

[SOPMOD 254]

get the saiga

Because it is cheaper! Because neither is very likely to shoot MOA... On average you are talking 4-6 MOA.

 

I mean you will read all about many MOA and sub-MOA AK on the gun boards, but they are pretty rare in the real world... I have never seen one, despite being a competitive high power shooter for 4 years. (When someone else was paying the cost of my practice! )

 

That said, a lot of serious shooting, and even warfare, has been conducted with rifles that were far from MOA shooters!

 

I would be all over a Saiga .308, if I could get one at the right price and MSA would build one of their neat little adapters to make it take FAL or G3 mags...

 

If your S308 is shooting 4-6 MOA you must have run over it with your car,LOL

Perhaps! Perhaps that is the final reliability test that they must all have to pass at the factory!

Yours must be one of the near mythical ones I always read about... Lucky you!

 

Hmm,there are a dozen people on this sight who have never seen bigger than 3" groups out of their Saiga 308s.

 

Even the Russians say it produces 40-45mm groups http://club.guns.ru/eng/sig308.htm Maybe you just spent so much time shooting huggy bear puffball rifles with 2lb triggers that you can't pull it off with something as rough and manly as a Saiga 308 anymore

Edited March 7, 2009 by SOPMOD

[Genocide 0]

Both my 308's are 1.5-3" guns with a 8X POSP. One is an 2001 and the other is a 2007, I must be super lucky to get two

Edited March 6, 2009 by Genocide

[Paladin_Hammer 8]

Something I've noticed on the AK platform is the difference two guns of the same model have when it comes to accuracy. I have two friends who each own a Tantal (5.45x39mm AK made in Poland). They bought them as a part of a group deal at a show two years ago.

 

Kasey's shoots from a bench rest nearly 3 inches groups, commonly, with almost every mil-surp ammo out there (Wolf doesn't do so well). But Cody's Tantal is lucky if it hits 3 inches. I mean REALLY lucky. It's only happened five times in these two years, he's got the targets to prove it. Where as Kasey doesn't even need targets, he can go out and shoot a few to prove it.

 

I'm starting to wonder if maybe the year alone could mean a dramatic difference in AK-rifles. Whoever is on the assembly line at the time. Or if just maybe, and this is unlikely, who approved it after testing. I know every Arsenal-made AK goes through a few test fires before they actually sell them. Which is why they tend to be more accurate (other than the obvious Milled receivers), if an Arsenal shoots poorly they take it apart and look for mistakes.

 

Like I said, it's unlikely, but maybe whoever approves the rifles at the factory could be the factor in deciding accuracy. One guy may let go a greater than four inch shooting rifle, while another will disapprove of anything above 3.

 

Don't crucify me over that idea. I'm just saying there must be an explanation for the varying differences we see in these rifles, even when they are of the same make and model.

[komblockid 0]

I'm lucky enough to own a .308 Saiga and a Romak/PSL. I'm still currently working on the Saiga(new furniture scope etc.) but my PSL will shoot 1.5" groups at 100yds. all day if you let the barrel cool between strings. It opens up a bit at 200yds. and at 300yds 4-5 inch groups with an occasional flyer. It's not a Dragunov but it shoots damn well for the price. Spent almost as much for the scope as for the gun. I've been told that all the Romaks were junk but my shoots fine.

[tarzan 0]

I'm lucky enough to own a .308 Saiga and a Romak/PSL. I'm still currently working on the Saiga(new furniture scope etc.) but my PSL will shoot 1.5" groups at 100yds. all day if you let the barrel cool between strings. It opens up a bit at 200yds. and at 300yds 4-5 inch groups with an occasional flyer. It's not a Dragunov but it shoots damn well for the price. Spent almost as much for the scope as for the gun. I've been told that all the Romaks were junk but my shoots fine.

 

What kind of ammo were u shooting ?

[jimdigriz 580]

I'm thinking about getting a dragonov style rifle, what do you think is a better deal the Romanian PSL's or a saiga 308 with 22" barrel?

 

I've been researching this question of late. My conclusion was that the Saiga is superior on account a number of factors:

- higher average quality from the factory

- MUCH thicker barrel (the PSL overheats rapidly with any amount of rapid firing, to the point of melting the laminate on the handguard)

- high capacity magazines

- ability to use most standard AK parts and accessories.

 

The PSL's good points are that it looks wicked cool, handles well, and uses cheaper ammo. But the Saiga is much more versatile.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

With the right brass ammo it will surprise you, sub 2MOA is not uncommon. With just any old steel case you have that was bought because its cheap 3-4 MOA. THis isnt bad considering most other MBRs like HK, FAL, or M1A show much more finicky operation with steel case. We buy these rifles because they do not ever let you down and go bang with anything short of rocks. That cannot be said for the others.

[308SAIGA 55]

Granted after reading some disputes here, I will agree that the 308 is not a sub-MOA rifle, you will be lucky to get a 4" group (out of the box).. Now convert it and put a good 2 stage trigger group (like I did) on her and I would not be surprised if it does not come down to 2" or lower "depending on THE DISTANCE you are shooting"..

 

There is a big difference in a 2" group at 50 yards and a 2" group at 100 yards or even a 2" group at 200 yards.... I hate it when people make the statement "I get a .5" group" but do not tell you at what distance or how they where shooting: Examples:

 

Size - Distance - type of ammo - How - Sights

 

4" - 50 yds - 168 match - benched - iron

 

 

These are key statements to actually see how much of a bad ass you really are...... With the specs above, I would say you suck at shooting and need to find another hobby... Now change the 4" to a .5" and I would say you are doing very well.....

 

To answer the OP's question, I have shot the PSL (factory) at 200 yards open sights, factory ammo benched, it was not a bad rifle but being factory trigger, it was a gritty pull and I did not do that well. Did I hit the target, yes I did around a 6-7" group 5 shots...

 

With my Saiga, hand loaded rounds, 2 stage trigger, scoped, benched I can get a 2" group with 5 shots.....

 

For the price I would get a Saiga, convert it and get a real good trigger group for her, you will be happy...

[Disinformant 3]

1 moa with 175gr federal gold medal match. The 168 gr black hills never did better 2 inches. I dont like the 8xPOSP though too heavy. sold the rifle in 08 for a couple hundred dollar profit. Im on the boards trying to determine if I want another one with a 16inch barrel or a .223

 

The accuracy question has brought me full circle though cuz now I reload and could probably do better but sheesh that thing really did a number on my brass.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Disinformant

[308SAIGA 55]

1 moa with 175gr federal gold medal match. The 168 gr black hills never did better 2 inches. I dont like the 8xPOSP though too heavy. sold the rifle in 08 for a couple hundred dollar profit. Im on the boards trying to determine if I want another one with a 16inch barrel or a .223

 

 

The accuracy question has brought me full circle though cuz now I reload and could probably do better but sheesh that thing really did a number on my brass.

 

1st it took me a few seconds to realize that it was a cat with his big head in the way

 

Question at what distance? The thing about the brass, is because the manufacture did not grind down the 3rd lug on the bolt, so every time you fire the weapon the 3rd lug hits the brass and puts a big dent in it.....

[Azrial 1,091]

Ha ha, what a joke!

 

You can not spray down a target and find three rounds in a group and then come here and claim that your Saiga is a MOA rifle.

 

Like I said, funny how you never see these rare 1 MOA Saiga rifles in the real world, just here on the Internet. I like the Saiga and the AK, but if any of you buy into this BS you will be disappointed at the range.

 

Buy an AK for what it is, a ultra reliable rifle that can be had for a comparatively low price.

 

(BTW, I kind of miss old SOPMOD! We used to go round and round on this subject! )

 

 

[regal 2]

Is it more accurate than a 5.45 Saiga in the hands of an average real average shooter and both using surplus ammo ?

[jimdigriz 580]

Is it more accurate than a 5.45 Saiga in the hands of an average real average shooter and both using surplus ammo ?

 

I shot a Saiga 308 and my 5.45 side by side the other day at the range, and fared noticeably better with the 308. (Was using Brown Bear in the 308, and surplus in the 5.45). It may be because the longer barreled 308 gave me a smaller-appearing front post, which did not obscure the target as much. Or it may be because of greater inherent accuracy; I'm not sure.

[308SAIGA 55]

Yeah I guess Tom Knapp is also a phony, shooting an aspirin out of the air with a 22LR......

 

These are the type of answers one can expect from the inabilities of some....... Again to find out if a person is full of him/herself more info is needed.... I can shot my Saiga 308 easily .5" MOA @ 50 yards and scoped....

 

 

[csspecs 1,987]

Is it more accurate than a 5.45 Saiga in the hands of an average real average shooter and both using surplus ammo ?

 

 

I'm around 4-8 MOA with the average field positions (AKA standing or sitting on the ground) and brown bear. Which means I can bounce a 3# coffee can around a hill side at around 100 yards. My 5.45 is around the same

 

I'd bet the gun can do much better with good ammo and a rest.

 

PS: I can shoot well if I have a nice bench and perfect conditions, but I practice the same way I use it. Its a field gun, shooting from a lead sled is not practice unless you bring it with you into the field.

 

EDIT 2:

Yes I know one inch at one hundred yards= 1 MOA which is why I threw that coffee can comment in there. A shooter that can maintain 1 MOA should be able to shoot a quarter at one hundred yards pretty much every time (correct?). I can't see a quarter at 100 yards let alone sight it with irons, so I know I'm out.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Judging from a lot of these posts there is a complete misunderstanding of how to state accuracy and the meaning of MOA.

 

MOA Minutes of Angle works out to approximately one inch per 100 yards. For example a 1MOA rifle gives 1 inch groups at 100 yards and 2 inch groups at 200 yards while it would be 1/2 inch at 50 yards. Distance then becomes completely unneeded in any discussion unless due to ammo ballistics you find the MOA varies not a very common thing.

 

Now the only way to determine a rifles MOA is to use a vice taking yourself out of the equation for the most part. So when we discuss the rifles accuracy we know what it is so any change in results when shooting normally is the shooters accuracy. For military purposes 4MOA shooter accuracy is standard and this is reflected in the qualification targets. 4MOA of course would be the combination of error from rifle, ammo, and shooter. At 300 yards which is considered the far limit of effective aimed fire range would yield 12 inch groups more than enough to be entirely deadly. You will have less accuracy standing than prone so standing is rarely tested beyond 100 yards.

 

Does a sub MOA rifle yield so much greater accuracy? No since the overwhelming majority of shooters add 2MOA or more to any rifle.

[csspecs 1,987]

Well I just shot a couple 5 inch groups with brown bear from 100 yards. And if I had not screwed up the first shot of each mag I would have had a 4.25 and a 4.50

 

So not too bad with brown bear. I bet some good ammo and a decent rest would help a lot.

[gunnysmith 4]

 

 

 

[mpmarty 2]

My old 16" EAA Saiga 308 outshoots my new Savage target rifle. As long as I do my part. I use an 8X40 POSP scope and use a heavy bench rest at our club range.

[308SAIGA 55]

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/gunnysmith/Saiganov/Saigafinal.jpg

 

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/gunnysmith/Saiganov/Saigafinal1.jpg

 

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/gunnysmith/Saiganov/Saigafinal2.jpg

 

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/gunnysmith/Saiganov/Saigafina3.jpg

 

 

This is what I am talking about, gunny at what range? In your pics you point to 2 different distances, 100 yards and the 321 yards. If you shot a 5 round group @ 321 yards and got a 1.25" you are a god, LOL. So I am assuming that you shot the 100 yard target which is an average group for the Saiga.....

[gunnysmith 4]

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/gunnysmith/Saiganov/Saigafinal.jpg

 

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/gunnysmith/Saiganov/Saigafinal1.jpg

 

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/gunnysmith/Saiganov/Saigafinal2.jpg

 

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/gunnysmith/Saiganov/Saigafina3.jpg

 

 

This is what I am talking about, gunny at what range? In your pics you point to 2 different distances, 100 yards and the 321 yards. If you shot a 5 round group @ 321 yards and got a 1.25" you are a god, LOL. So I am assuming that you shot the 100 yard target which is an average group for the Saiga.....

100 yard target

[csspecs 1,987]

Well I did some reading and figured out some things I was doing wrong.

 

What changed:

 

Did a basic trigger job, just smoothing the corners on some 600 grit. Applied moly grease to the trigger hook.

 

Removed scope mount and reinstalled with a little grease to get it locked on the rail better.

 

Shot from prone using two sand bags for front and back rests (I never thought of using a back rest before).

 

Range:

 

I shot a 2.5x3 and a 2x3 group but had the first hand fed rounds go low. Then figured out not to hand fed the first round and, Shot a 2.5" tall by 2" wide five shot group. (all from 100 yards)

 

Using brown bear no less. So I'm thinking I may need to order match ammo just to find out.

[308SAIGA 55]

Well I did some reading and figured out some things I was doing wrong.

 

What changed:

 

Did a basic trigger job, just smoothing the corners on some 600 grit. Applied moly grease to the trigger hook.

 

Removed scope mount and reinstalled with a little grease to get it locked on the rail better.

 

Shot from prone using two sand bags for front and back rests (I never thought of using a back rest before).

 

Range:

 

I shot a 2.5x3 and a 2x3 group but had the first hand fed rounds go low. Then figured out not to hand fed the first round and, Shot a 2.5" tall by 2" wide five shot group. (all from 100 yards)

 

Using brown bear no less. So I'm thinking I may need to order match ammo just to find out.

 

You just cut your accuracy by half, congrats and I'll bet you could do better... First I need to ask, why did you have to polish your trigger group? What trigger group do you have? Do you have the ability to load your own? If not pick up some prvi 168 gr match...

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=329954

 

http://www.targetsportsusa.com/p-88-prvi-partizan-rifle-amunition-308-winchester-168-grain-match-hollow-point-box-of-20-rounds.aspx

 

When I get some extra cash, I am going to flute my barrel...... Nothing real deep, I will have to consult my gunsmith before I do it......

[csspecs 1,987]

I had a few little burs on the trigger contact point, like right before it would break it would hit a little gritty area. FCG is a Tapco G2 single hook. I'm thinking about one of those RSA triggers.

 

Have everything but powder and primers. I make piles of .308 dummy ammo, so I could do it. I just worry it how much time I'd spend on it as it is I spend about 6+ hours a week reloading shotgun shells.