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Can 7.62X54r be fired in a Saiga .308?


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#1 FrustratedInCali

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 07:23 PM

Just as the title says. Is it possible to use 7.62x54r in a .308? I know that .308 is 7.62x51 but does the extra length, 3mm make it so that the 7.62x54r can't be chambered in a .308? I searched everywhere and they all say that the .308 is the parent cartridge for the 7.62x54r but nothing definite whether it is okay to interchange between the two.

The reason why I ask is that 7.62x54r is much cheaper than .308 so I'm looking at as a source of cheap ammo.

#2 Paladin_Hammer

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 07:35 PM

NO!

DO NOT TRY THAT!

Trust me, it says .308, IT MEANS .308! 3mm does indeed make a difference. Plus, the case is thicker overall, so it won't fit in the mags.

You can't fit a .270 Winchester in a .270 Winchester Short Magnum. You can't fit a 7.62x54R in a .308 Winchester!

But the real reason: .308 cartridges are rimless. 7.62x54R are RIMMED. Aside from not fitting in the magazines, it won't even sit on the bolt right. The .308 is not the parent of the 7.62x54R. The x54R was first used back in 1898 when the Mosin-Nagant was first shipped to the Russian Military. The .308 came about in the 1940's (with a project in the 1930's leading to its interest).

If you want to try, go ahead, but if it does chamber, that 3mm extra is going to cause the case to hold the bolt open a little, which means the powder will find its way out of the case and into the gun, causing an explosion.

I guess someone could try a conversion, but now were talking someone beyond these forums.

Edited by Paladin_Hammer, 04 March 2009 - 07:38 PM.

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#3 Mike Reynolds

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 08:04 PM

X2 no way will it work....the bolt will hold open and it can get ugly quickly

#4 Wheel

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 12:29 AM

isn't a .308 the same (or pretty much) as a 7.62x51?

#5 Racer 27

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 12:31 AM

isn't a .308 the same (or pretty much) as a 7.62x51?


same
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark Professionals built the Titanic.
DO YOUR OWN CONVERSION!

Look here for how: http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=40886

#6 csspecs

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 01:10 AM

Get a PSL.


Or reload for cheaper ammo.

X54r is not that much cheaper after cleaning like you have to.

http://stores.csspecs.com/
For metal Saiga-12, Saiga .308 and Vepr .308 magazines.

 

http://www.facebook.com/csspecs


#7 t165

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 01:16 AM

isn't a .308 the same (or pretty much) as a 7.62x51?



Exterior case dimensions of the commercial .308 Winchester and military 7.62x51 are reported to be identical. Interior dimensions of the.308 Winchester and military 7.62x51 are reported to be a bit different in some publications I have read. The important difference is in the pressure generated upon firing. Again, publications state the 308 Winchester has about a 62,000 psi upper limit and the military 7.62x51 has a 50,000 psi upper limit. Either will chamber and fire in firearms marked exclusively or in tandem. Firing a commercial 308 Winchester in a firearm badged for the military 7.62x51 may cause damage to the firearm or shooter. Firing a military 7.62x51 in a badged commercial 308 Winchester firearm will not damage a firearm but it may not cycle some gas operated firearms properly.

I contacted Clyde at RAAC and ask about the possibility of Saiga manufacturing and importing a firearm chambered for the 7.62x54r. He stated while there are rumors floating around there was not truth to the rumor at this time. I agree it would be nice since 7.62x51 military ammunition has become more expensive.

#8 Netpackrat

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 02:29 AM

Good grief...

#9 t165

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 04:15 AM

Good grief...



HAHA! Perhaps you're a bit worn out Netpackrat. I noticed these two very similar threads also. At least I think the "Good Grief" comment was referring to the nexus between the two. Debate, arguement...it keeps the mind young. Pointless, probably...but its fun to stir a monkeys mind.

#10 facepull

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 05:51 AM

Just as the title says. Is it possible to use 7.62x54r in a .308? I know that .308 is 7.62x51 but does the extra length, 3mm make it so that the 7.62x54r can't be chambered in a .308? I searched everywhere and they all say that the .308 is the parent cartridge for the 7.62x54r but nothing definite whether it is okay to interchange between the two.

The reason why I ask is that 7.62x54r is much cheaper than .308 so I'm looking at as a source of cheap ammo.

first the parent cartridge is the 300 savage. second the bullet diameter of both is different. the russian bullet is BIGGER! the case dimensions are much different. I do not know if this post is a level as well as some responces but my god use some intelligence.

#11 Bender

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 10:53 AM

sweet merciful crap.
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A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
- George Washington

#12 Paladin_Hammer

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 02:20 PM

sweet merciful crap.


What are you and Netpackrat going on about?

#13 vbrtrmn

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 04:18 PM

7.62x54R == You're smoking the crack.

7.62 NATO refer to my post in this thread.
http://forum.saiga-1...p...st&p=328532

#14 deadduck357

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 05:20 PM

You hear of people blowing their faces off and you just wonder... Some just should'nt ever put a firearm in their hands.

#15 FrustratedInCali

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 07:07 PM

For those who answered my question - thanks.

For those who commented about my intelligence - The stupid thing to would have been try it without checking. Hence no post. The smart thing to do would be to check and ask and so I got my answer.

#16 t165

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 09:46 PM

For those who answered my question - thanks.

For those who commented about my intelligence - The stupid thing to would have been try it without checking. Hence no post. The smart thing to do would be to check and ask and so I got my answer.



If you read these forums enough you'll find some that do nothing but pop off and insult people every chance they get. In the real world they would have to take an ass kicking for their comments but these keyboard tough guys would never be so rude in public. I try to ignore them but it does get difficult at times. You just know they are on or in need of psychological counciling and medication.

#17 Netpackrat

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 12:49 AM

If you read these forums enough you'll find some that do nothing but pop off and insult people every chance they get. In the real world they would have to take an ass kicking for their comments but these keyboard tough guys would never be so rude in public. I try to ignore them but it does get difficult at times. You just know they are on or in need of psychological counciling and medication.


If you are referring to me, please pm for my home address. As for rudeness, sorry, but putting the wrong ammunition into a firearm can result in death and destruction to the firearm and user. It sucks being on the receiving end of "correction" sometimes, but this is one of those things that can't be said too strongly. It is a dumb thing to do, and it needs to be made clear beyond all doubt to anyone reading that it is a dumb thing to do, and the fact that not asking the question at all would have been even dumber, does not change that. It also doesn't mean that the OP is a dumb person for thinking it in the first place, just uneducated about this particular aspect of firearms. He isn't anymore. It's all part of how we learn, and a response that would otherwise be rightly considered rude and inappropriate is not excessive when physical danger is involved.

#18 Paladin_Hammer

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 01:16 AM

For those who answered my question - thanks.

For those who commented about my intelligence - The stupid thing to would have been try it without checking. Hence no post. The smart thing to do would be to check and ask and so I got my answer.


Sorry man, but a quick google search or a wikipedia article would show you that the 7.62x54R and .308 Winchester (7.62x51 NATO) are no where near the same cartridge, related, or even friends. In any gun, ANY GUN, 3mm means the difference between "bang" and "kaBOOM!". Where as the former results in a lead projectile moving as super-sonic speeds (modernly), the later results in death or serious injury.

Never, ever, ever, EVER use ammunition in a firearm that wasn't designed for it. A shotgun that is made for 3 inch shells will NOT accept 3.5 inch shells. A 9mm Beretta won't chamber .45 ACP (or fire it, and if for some miraculous reason it does chamber, firing will result in kaBOOM!). If you can modify a firearm to accept another caliber, like the M1895 Nagant pistol can be fitted with a cylinder for .32 ACP, then once you've properly made the modifications, then another caliber can be used (like Mauser rifles being re-barreled and having their actions re-worked for 30-06 or .308).

Saigas on the other hand, I've never even heard of someone modifying one for another caliber. The one thing the AK platform is not good at, is when it it built in one caliber, it cannot be easily or even modestly modified for another caliber. An example would be the .223 Saiga being re-chambered for 7.62x39. Sure you could just techincally swap out the bolts, but then you have to swap out the barrels. THEN you have to completely modify the magazine well. THEN your going to need to open up the receiver and receiver cover for the wider cartridge. By the time you've purchased the replacement parts, you could have very well worked yourself up to the price of a new 30 commie.

In short, using one kind of ammo in a gun it is not chambered for is a bad idea. Only those of years of experience in Gunsmithing can get a firearm to chamber something other than what it is originally designed for. If it was something we could do, we'd have a whole section devoted to 7.62x54R Saigas (I know I'd buy one).

#19 t165

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 02:19 AM

If you read these forums enough you'll find some that do nothing but pop off and insult people every chance they get. In the real world they would have to take an ass kicking for their comments but these keyboard tough guys would never be so rude in public. I try to ignore them but it does get difficult at times. You just know they are on or in need of psychological counciling and medication.


If you are referring to me, please pm for my home address. As for rudeness, sorry, but putting the wrong ammunition into a firearm can result in death and destruction to the firearm and user. It sucks being on the receiving end of "correction" sometimes, but this is one of those things that can't be said too strongly. It is a dumb thing to do, and it needs to be made clear beyond all doubt to anyone reading that it is a dumb thing to do, and the fact that not asking the question at all would have been even dumber, does not change that. It also doesn't mean that the OP is a dumb person for thinking it in the first place, just uneducated about this particular aspect of firearms. He isn't anymore. It's all part of how we learn, and a response that would otherwise be rightly considered rude and inappropriate is not excessive when physical danger is involved.



Netpackrat...I did not mention your name but if you think the show fits wear it. If you do not have the courage to place your comments with your true identity then why should I PM you. It would probably be a fake address anyway. My Name Is Ted Dye...325 North Hyde Park Drive, Vincennes Indiana 47591. I do not hide from anybody. I have always left my name and address in the phone book even though half the punk bitches I arrested told me they were going to find out where I live. If you wish to do a little dance come see me. You have no excuses now...

You could learn a lot from the immediate post below you. That of paladin hammer. He was courteous and did not have to sink to name calling or insulting another member of this thread.

#20 t165

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 04:35 AM

"if the show fits wear it". I'm trying to get this guy to trade punches and I cannot even get the insult right.

#21 facepull

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 04:43 AM

Just as the title says. Is it possible to use 7.62x54r in a .308? I know that .308 is 7.62x51 but does the extra length, 3mm make it so that the 7.62x54r can't be chambered in a .308? I searched everywhere and they all say that the .308 is the parent cartridge for the 7.62x54r but nothing definite whether it is okay to interchange between the two.

The reason why I ask is that 7.62x54r is much cheaper than .308 so I'm looking at as a source of cheap ammo.

i'm just alittle curious about who are the "they all say that the 308 is the parent cartridge for the 7.62x54r" people? by the way I have said things in the past where I had to question my own intelligence!. I was not insulting you. I'm revolting against being policitically correct like these liberal anti-gun pieces of feces.

#22 vbrtrmn

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 11:43 AM

FrustratedInCali, refer to UNSAFE ARMS AND AMMUNITION COMBINATIONS; it doesn't specifically state no 7.62x54R in a 308, but frankly, you won't even be able to get the round to chamber.

If you want to see a side-by-side comparison, check out this page, search for "Current service rifle/MG" in the page, you'll see a good picture of many current rounds. Take a good look at the casing for the 7.62x54R vs the 7.62 NATO round, especially the rim.

#23 Thud

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 08:18 PM

Frustratedincali The 7.62X 54 cartridge is the oldest continually produced rifle cartridge in the world. It's a 19th century design. It's still a good shooter though, the Russians seem to like it. The .308 or the 7.62 X 51 is actually a descendant of the venerable 30-06 same dia.bullet (shorter case and neck). The 30.06 begat a lot of other cartridges as well; 25-06,243,270,7mm-06,.358,35 wheelen. I probably left out some ... the only similarities between the orig. two is the 7.62 just like motorcycles its not always exactly the actual size. the russian bullet is .310-.311, the american is .308. the 7.62 is generally used to designate thirty caliber. Hope this helps.

#24 t165

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 08:37 PM

Just as the title says. Is it possible to use 7.62x54r in a .308? I know that .308 is 7.62x51 but does the extra length, 3mm make it so that the 7.62x54r can't be chambered in a .308? I searched everywhere and they all say that the .308 is the parent cartridge for the 7.62x54r but nothing definite whether it is okay to interchange between the two.

The reason why I ask is that 7.62x54r is much cheaper than .308 so I'm looking at as a source of cheap ammo.



Okay...I should have done this last night. I took the factory magazine out of my 308-1 Saiga and was able to insert (1) 7.62x54r Silver Bear cartridge 203 grain softpoint. No additional cartridges could be loaded. As you can see the cartridge hung up on the front feed lip and the rim of the cartridge slipped over the back of the magazine follower effectively locking the cartridge in place within the magazine. I was then able to snap the magazine in place without much effort. This surprised me because the tip of the bullet actually hangs over the front feed lip...nonetheless it seated fully.The charging handle on the firearm could not be pulled back. I took the magazine out of battery and noticed the soft point nose of the bullet had been deformed. I had to take a pencil and depress the magazine follower while holding the magazine upside down to allow the 7.62x54r cartridge to fall out. I then pulled the charging handle of the Saiga 308-1 back and engaged the bolt hold open device. Then I inserted the 7.62x54r cartridge into the chamber as far as it would go...I did not try to force the cartridge at all. The picture illustrates it simply does not chamber. I apologize for the bad quality of the pictures but the details should still be evident.

I don't see how anyone...by accident or otherwise could actually get the 7.62x54r cartridge to chamber and fire in a Saiga 308-1. Maybe I should take that back...I guess one could push the cartridge as far into the chamber as they can get it and then shoot the primer with a bb gun... :cryss:

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 09:10 PM

Man WTF is it lately with all these new "TOUGH GUYS" who have wandered in here from god knows where...probably barfcom... :rolleyes: ...that have all these smartass comments to make about our forum, and if anyone says anything to them about it they start spouting a bunch of shit about wanting to "dance" or setup a meeting to trade punches? STFU already or go the fuck back to where ever you came here from!

God dammit this place is going to the dogs! :ded:
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#26 t165

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 10:11 PM

Man WTF is it lately with all these new "TOUGH GUYS" who have wandered in here from god knows where...probably barfcom... :rolleyes: ...that have all these smartass comments to make about our forum, and if anyone says anything to them about it they start spouting a bunch of shit about wanting to "dance" or setup a meeting to trade punches? STFU already or go the fuck back to where ever you came here from!

God dammit this place is going to the dogs! :ded:



Great! Lets start with you...STFU and go back where you came from. I can give as good as I get.

#27 .308Caliber

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 10:47 PM

I just tried some .308 win. in my S12 and it worked extraordinarily good. Also used it in my 7.62x39mm AK and it performed remarkably well so, I figured I'd try it in my 5.56x45mm/.223 AR15 and guess what, it performed exceptionally great. I may be getting a little overzealous but, I think I'm going to try the same with some 7.62x54 I have laying around tomorrow. :lolol:

#28 t165

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 10:57 PM

I just tried some .308 win. in my S12 and it worked extraordinarily good. Also used it in my 7.62x39mm AK and it performed remarkably well so, I figured I'd try it in my 5.56x45mm/.223 AR15 and guess what, it performed exceptionally great. I may be getting a little overzealous but, I think I'm going to try the same with some 7.62x54 I have laying around tomorrow. :lolol:



Thats funny! I knew the 7.62x54r would not chamber and fire in the Saiga 308-1. The reason I posted the pics and did the little experiment is because FrustratedInCali asked the question and felt insulted by some of the comments. I thought a few pictures would help explain things...a picture is worth a thousand words..by the way, my Saiga-12's chamber must be a little loose...The 7.62x54r cartridge just fell through all the way out the other end of the barrel on mine.

#29 .308Caliber

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 11:14 PM

I just tried some .308 win. in my S12 and it worked extraordinarily good. Also used it in my 7.62x39mm AK and it performed remarkably well so, I figured I'd try it in my 5.56x45mm/.223 AR15 and guess what, it performed exceptionally great. I may be getting a little overzealous but, I think I'm going to try the same with some 7.62x54 I have laying around tomorrow. :lolol:



Thats funny! I knew the 7.62x54r would not chamber and fire in the Saiga 308-1. The reason I posted the pics and did the little experiment is because FrustratedInCali asked the question and felt insulted by some of the comments. I thought a few pictures would help explain things...a picture is worth a thousand words..by the way, my Saiga-12's chamber must be a little loose...The 7.62x54r cartridge just fell through all the way out the other end of the barrel on mine.

You just have to use the right choke. :super:

#30 FrustratedInCali

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 12:34 AM

Whoa! You guys are getting all out of hand. I thought this forum is for people to ask noob questions and get some insight from the helpful experts on this forum. With .308 rnds being more than a $1/rnd in some cases, you can't beat a guy for trying if there are other calibers that can be picked up on the cheap that may work. In other words, I got my answer. Thanks.

At least I'm not one of the many noobs posting "how do you convert?" or "who can I call to convert" or "how do I disassemble this" or "how do I assemble that". That information is all over this forum. There isn't a day my e-mail doesn't get a notification on a new thread about "how to convert a Saiga". I'm just sick of it. If you want to crap on a thread please crap on any of those and eventually people may get the idea on how to do a search in this forum on the most popular topic here. Hopefully my inbox doesn't get notified about a bunch of redundent topics.

As for "they all said it was a parent cartridge...", I read it from one of the hunters forum resulting from a search in yahoo. Obviously I didn't take their answers to heart which is why I posted a question here. Perhaps it may be possible in bolt action but definitely not in a semi-auto.




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