Poor Man's Armour piercing Slugs

[lipadj46 2]

Most armor piercing rounds are designed to pierce steel and have a tungsten or depleted uranium penetrator (any dense metal) that when it hits the target the penetrator "bores" into the armor and sheds material from the tip in essence sharpening instead of deforming it so it can continue to penetrate the material. The penetrators also in general are pyrophoric so as the material is shed it ignites. Tank AP sabot rounds are based on the same principle. The other effective armor piercing method is a shaped charge where a charge of explosive focuses a jet of metal into the armor. Shotguns slugs are more of a brut force thing with a large heavy slow moving slug designed for expansion and stopping power.

[Patriot12 11]

Most armor piercing rounds are designed to pierce steel and have a tungsten or depleted uranium penetrator (any dense metal) that when it hits the target the penetrator "bores" into the armor and sheds material from the tip in essence sharpening instead of deforming it so it can continue to penetrate the material. The penetrators also in general are pyrophoric so as the material is shed it ignites. Tank AP sabot rounds are based on the same principle. The other effective armor piercing method is a shaped charge where a charge of explosive focuses a jet of metal into the armor. Shotguns slugs are more of a brut force thing with a large heavy slow moving slug designed for expansion and stopping power.

What about a tungsten or depleted uranium penetrator (any dense metal) in a SABOT? Also with fins so you don't need a rifled bore.

[Tsm002 5]

For everyone asking "why you'd need ap ammo"...

 

How about those felons in body armor? Not very often but it does happen.

 

Why do cops need that capability? To deal with criminals who might wear body armor. And more are.

 

It's a legit question and asking about penetration doesn't make one a cop killer any more than asking how to convert your saiga and where to get 20 round drums means that you're going to go on a compton rampage with said drums.

 

As far as armored vehicles go-

 

Why use an ap small arms cartridge? Haji's using something far easier to make that doesn't come out of a gun over in Iraq with devastating effect on light armored vehicles. Won't specify what or how to make it but those who have been over there will know exactly what I'm talking about and will know exactly why those actually involved in combat against armored individuals really aren't sweating the AP thing so much.

 

And why would you need to take out an armored vehicle? Hell, I dunno. Maybe for when zombies show up.

 

The whole AP discussion ends up kinda silly when you realize that most soft body armor is dealt with fairly easily by fairly common applications (won't list them here). No need for gimmick ammo.

 

The only AP I REALLLLY miss is the bronze core .25 and .32 acp as well as the tubular copper PMC .38 special cartridge. Those were actually pretty damn good manstoppers; gave the .25 the capability to penetrate unarmored targets to the depth needed to hit CNS or vital organ systems.

 

Have a buttload of the chinese steel core "AP" stuff. Not worth it at all. Glad I bought it back when it was cheap and no one wanted it. It's mild steel and won't do jack that wolf won't.

 

ss109? I guess. If you like punching icepick holes.

 

Edited to add:

 

If you're worried about ap ditch the shotgun. I just can't see the velocity getting high enough to do anything that a rifle can't do better. By the time you get around to designing the finned solid magnum sabot round and the shotgun to fire it accurately and reliably you could have just bought a good dangerous game rifle like a .416 rigby and a small box of VERY good monolithic solids and have something that's been designed from the ground up for very extreme penetration and terminal effect.

Edited March 7, 2009 by Tsm002

[Patriot12 11]

For everyone asking "why you'd need ap ammo"...

 

How about those felons in body armor? Not very often but it does happen.

 

Why do cops need that capability? To deal with criminals who might wear body armor. And more are.

 

It's a legit question and asking about penetration doesn't make one a cop killer any more than asking how to convert your saiga and where to get 20 round drums means that you're going to go on a compton rampage with said drums.

 

As far as armored vehicles go-

 

Why use an ap small arms cartridge? Haji's using something far easier to make that doesn't come out of a gun over in Iraq with devastating effect on light armored vehicles. Won't specify what or how to make it but those who have been over there will know exactly what I'm talking about and will know exactly why those actually involved in combat against armored individuals really aren't sweating the AP thing so much.

 

And why would you need to take out an armored vehicle? Hell, I dunno. Maybe for when zombies show up.

 

The whole AP discussion ends up kinda silly when you realize that most soft body armor is dealt with fairly easily by fairly common applications (won't list them here). No need for gimmick ammo.

 

The only AP I REALLLLY miss is the bronze core .25 and .32 acp as well as the tubular copper PMC .38 special cartridge. Those were actually pretty damn good manstoppers; gave the .25 the capability to penetrate unarmored targets to the depth needed to hit CNS or vital organ systems.

 

Have a buttload of the chinese steel core "AP" stuff. Not worth it at all. Glad I bought it back when it was cheap and no one wanted it. It's mild steel and won't do jack that wolf won't.

 

ss109? I guess. If you like punching icepick holes.

 

Edited to add:

 

If you're worried about ap ditch the shotgun. I just can't see the velocity getting high enough to do anything that a rifle can't do better. By the time you get around to designing the finned solid magnum sabot round and the shotgun to fire it accurately and reliably you could have just bought a good dangerous game rifle like a .416 rigby and a small box of VERY good monolithic solids and have something that's been designed from the ground up for very extreme penetration and terminal effect.

You have given me a lot to think about.

[lipadj46 2]

Most armor piercing rounds are designed to pierce steel and have a tungsten or depleted uranium penetrator (any dense metal) that when it hits the target the penetrator "bores" into the armor and sheds material from the tip in essence sharpening instead of deforming it so it can continue to penetrate the material. The penetrators also in general are pyrophoric so as the material is shed it ignites. Tank AP sabot rounds are based on the same principle. The other effective armor piercing method is a shaped charge where a charge of explosive focuses a jet of metal into the armor. Shotguns slugs are more of a brut force thing with a large heavy slow moving slug designed for expansion and stopping power.

What about a tungsten or depleted uranium penetrator (any dense metal) in a SABOT? Also with fins so you don't need a rifled bore.

 

Sure, I believe the M1A1 tank cannon is a smooth bore and shoots a finned sabot (shotgun barrel scaled up). The effectiveness would depend on how much velocity you can get out of the sabot, not sure if a shotgun will give you rifle like velocity.

[Twinsen 86]

I think if somebody offered a bronze slug, it'd be the perfect solution. I'm pretty sure the game STALKER has them.

[Patriot12 11]

I think if somebody offered a bronze slug, it'd be the perfect solution. I'm pretty sure the game STALKER has them.

Would bronze even work? I thought that bronze was soft metal.

[lipadj46 2]

I think if somebody offered a bronze slug, it'd be the perfect solution. I'm pretty sure the game STALKER has them.

Would bronze even work? I thought that bronze was soft metal.

 

Density is more important than hardness, though obviously you want something that is reatively hard. Generally AP rounds are pure or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.

[Paulry 50]

We must NEVER support illegal activities in this forum!

 

Sabots are interesting subject matter, please don't advocate illegal actions. mother is watching (i'm sure)

[patriot 7,197]

We must NEVER support illegal activities in this forum!

 

Sabots are interesting subject matter, please don't advocate illegal actions. mother is watching (i'm sure)

 

I don't think anyone is talking illegal, here. Just academic "what ifs"

 

A .69 caliber round ball over 110 grains of 2F black makes a nice, big hole, but I wouldn't shoot the Holy Black out of a Saiga. My '97 likes it just fine.

Edited March 7, 2009 by patriot

[Tsm002 5]

Monolithic solids aren't illegal. Whatsoever. You see solid lead free bullets in calibers like the nitro express range, the rigby range etc all the time. Go look up the latest midway USA catalog and they load qute a few of them; they're just expensive as hell and so are the rifles (usually double rifles or very well made express magazine rifles) that shoot them.

 

In fact you can even nab .600 nitro express, .585 Nyati and .577 Tyrannasaur rifles and somehow they're not a DD. Don't ask me how. Maybe it's because they are genuinely sporting rifles; the nitro express line of cartdidges is one of the oldest sporting rifle cartridge lines around. I've only seen a few out there and the price of the ammunition is just bonkers. Holland & Holland make some nice ones if you're ready to bend over on the price. Once you shoot a .585 Nyati you'll never bitch about the recoil on anything else. Ever. Again.

 

If you want something a LITTLE bit less expensive and obtainable you could look towards more American tropical rounds and rifles like the Ruger #1 or some of the magazine rifles made by Remington in .458 Win Mag or .375 H&H. Good monolithic solids available for those and frankly if you ever plan on doing an African hunt they won't let you down. I wouldn't go with a ruger #1 though. It's double rifle or magazine rifle for me. Prefer a double rifle for dangerous game- second round is immediately available. Problem is that good double rifles are insanely expensive. Have only rented one for use on a hunt before.

 

All of these are designed to rip through elephant flesh and heavy bone matter to an extreme degree. All are LEGAL sporting rounds and won't raise ANY red flags. ALL are legal to own in pretty much any state since, hey...it's a hunting rifle!

 

And all will turn steel/ceramic/spectra/kevlar/whatever into swiss cheese.

That's why your range probably won't let you use them on steel targets, dontcha know?

 

And before everyone gangbangs this post with "OMG ITS SUPPORTING ILLEGAL COPKILLING ACTIVITY" think about this-

Is some homey out there gonna spend the 200-300K that a REALLLLY good double rifle chambered in .585 Nyati is going to cost? Probably not. Are they going to go through the form 6 paper work that will msot likely be required to get it in country (which will more likely than not be approved, BTW- ATF is surprisingly lenient about tropical and safari rifles) since most of these dangerous game rifles are made over in the UK or mainland Europe? Probably not.

 

I'm not a cop here but I'm pretty sure that most sane cops don't quiver in their boots every morning (or night?) when they head to work worrying about whether or not they're gonna get hit in a drive by with a holland and holland tropical dangerous game rifle. What I do think most cops would say is...damn. Those are some pretty cool if not expensive rifles when they go look at the holland and holland catalogue.

 

I don't think that ANY of us are supporting illegal activity. Well, crap. Wait a minute. You guys broke the code. Looks like Patriot12 and I had better stop funneling all of those saiga 12 forum site dues off to the Derka Derka Muhammed Jihad Liberation Front of Kazakhstan.

[Patriot12 11]

We must NEVER support illegal activities in this forum!

 

Sabots are interesting subject matter, please don't advocate illegal actions. mother is watching (i'm sure)

I want to second that. When I started this thread my intent was information exchange only. I never really intended to try any of these ideas and from what I have read no one has given me the impression that they were going to try anything illegal. However, I know someone may get the temptation to try some of this stuff please double check the laws before you do.

[Patriot12 11]

Monolithic solids aren't illegal. Whatsoever. You see solid lead free bullets in calibers like the nitro express range, the rigby range etc all the time. Go look up the latest midway USA catalog and they load qute a few of them; they're just expensive as hell and so are the rifles (usually double rifles or very well made express magazine rifles) that shoot them.

 

In fact you can even nab .600 nitro express, .585 Nyati and .577 Tyrannasaur rifles and somehow they're not a DD. Don't ask me how. Maybe it's because they are genuinely sporting rifles; the nitro express line of cartdidges is one of the oldest sporting rifle cartridge lines around. I've only seen a few out there and the price of the ammunition is just bonkers. Holland & Holland make some nice ones if you're ready to bend over on the price. Once you shoot a .585 Nyati you'll never bitch about the recoil on anything else. Ever. Again.

 

If you want something a LITTLE bit less expensive and obtainable you could look towards more American tropical rounds and rifles like the Ruger #1 or some of the magazine rifles made by Remington in .458 Win Mag or .375 H&H. Good monolithic solids available for those and frankly if you ever plan on doing an African hunt they won't let you down. I wouldn't go with a ruger #1 though. It's double rifle or magazine rifle for me. Prefer a double rifle for dangerous game- second round is immediately available. Problem is that good double rifles are insanely expensive. Have only rented one for use on a hunt before.

 

All of these are designed to rip through elephant flesh and heavy bone matter to an extreme degree. All are LEGAL sporting rounds and won't raise ANY red flags. ALL are legal to own in pretty much any state since, hey...it's a hunting rifle!

 

And all will turn steel/ceramic/spectra/kevlar/whatever into swiss cheese.

That's why your range probably won't let you use them on steel targets, dontcha know?

 

And before everyone gangbangs this post with "OMG ITS SUPPORTING ILLEGAL COPKILLING ACTIVITY" think about this-

Is some homey out there gonna spend the 200-300K that a REALLLLY good double rifle chambered in .585 Nyati is going to cost? Probably not. Are they going to go through the form 6 paper work that will msot likely be required to get it in country (which will more likely than not be approved, BTW- ATF is surprisingly lenient about tropical and safari rifles) since most of these dangerous game rifles are made over in the UK or mainland Europe? Probably not.

 

I'm not a cop here but I'm pretty sure that most sane cops don't quiver in their boots every morning (or night?) when they head to work worrying about whether or not they're gonna get hit in a drive by with a holland and holland tropical dangerous game rifle. What I do think most cops would say is...damn. Those are some pretty cool if not expensive rifles when they go look at the holland and holland catalogue.

 

I don't think that ANY of us are supporting illegal activity. Well, crap. Wait a minute. You guys broke the code. Looks like Patriot12 and I had better stop funneling all of those saiga 12 forum site dues off to the Derka Derka Muhammed Jihad Liberation Front of Kazakhstan.

How did you know I was funneling all of those saiga 12 forum site dues off to the Derka Derka Muhammed Jihad Liberation Front of Kazakhstan? I only told 2 people and you weren't one of them.

[Paulry 50]

I'm just getting to damn paranoid! My bad

[TheGlobule 1]

This cop killing bullet thing is pure non-sense and a democratic fart of someone brain.

Any bullet can kill a cop and AP ammo are AP ammo, not some cop killing evil ammo.

There are already some 12 gauge AP slugs on the market today and AP slugs are fairly easy to make.

You just need an aerodynamic hard core traveling at great velocity.

Something like a tungsten dart in a three parts plastic sabot will do the trick quite nicely.

If you are lazy, you can look in the arrow head department and make a plastic sabot for what you like.

[Tsm002 5]

Patriot 12,

Great congratulations give to you! You have uncover Large Organization for Benefit of Balakalaka Sherpa Sherpa. If I could not hide under false name and help with you funnel currencies to Derka Derka Muhammed Jihad Liberation Front of Kazakhstan I would be excecute. Very nice! But we must keep big operation secret. Otherwise, not so much.

 

 

Now switch back to evil dialect for benefit of foreign devils I must.

 

 

I think we need to define what we mean by "armor" here. We have vehicular armor, soft vody armor, hard body armor, "bulletproof" glass, all sorts of things. All with different properties.

 

We also need to define what we mean by "effective".

 

If I'm a cop (or a law abiding citizen or a neer do well) and I'm wearing my vest and I get shot with a slug odds are the slug will be caught by the vest (I prefer that term to "stopped") if I'm not mistaken. However, I'd probably be out of the game for the part that matters due to the cracked ribs or whatever. Does that make the slug ineffective and not ap? According to the law, yes.

 

But it's still effective when talk about real results- the target is no longer an immediate threat.

 

That works for me for home defense. My goal is to stop whoever seeks to harm my loved ones and I from being an immediate threat. Since here in TX we now have civil immunity from justifiable home defense scenarios I'm not so much worried as I once was about dead men telling no tales. As a human being I'd much rather have the threat be stopped and prevent ANY loss of life. But they will be leaving my house one way or the other- in a body bag or in handcuffs. I'd rather it be in handcuffs because, let's be realistic here, if killing another human being doesn't strike you somewhere something's wrong no matter how justified it is.

I have every confidence in both my AR-15 loaded with m193 and/or my s20 loaded with slugs to place any threat in the "no longer an immediate problem" category. If they're wearing armor? My guess is that won't be a problem once they get hit. What are the odds of them wearing armor? Not very high. But the chance is there and I live within a block or two of I45 so we have our fair share of burglaries.

I'm not worried about finding ap rounds for my HD guns. They're both longarms. I figure if I'm in a situation where I'm using my CHL gun (g19 or LCP) and someone's wearing armor I'm kinda screwed anyways and at least the non ap handgun I have will give me a ghost of a chance. But it's not something I worry about.

 

Besides, felons are prohibited from owning body armor. That obviously means they don't. Right?

 

NOW...

Zombie invasions, chinese paratrooper invasions (complete with hot Luci Liu clones kicking down every man's door) and other such things are an entirely different matter.

 

Then we totally need an assault wheelbarrow and a suppressed .22 ar upper. Those who know what I'm talking about will be able to speak as to its efficacy as proven long ago on a gun board far far away.

[WardenWolf 6]

Slugs are very dangerous if used improperly. They're the closest thing to shooting something with a video game railgun. They tend to blow clean through things otherwise regarded as solid. Like loaded fridges, cars, and more. They'll also break an engine block. All our modern body armor techniques, all our typical methods for making us safer from bullets, really fall apart where slugs are concerned. They just aren't designed for something with that high mass.

[Patriot12 11]

Slugs are very dangerous if used improperly. They're the closest thing to shooting something with a video game railgun. They tend to blow clean through things otherwise regarded as solid. Like loaded fridges, cars, and more. They'll also break an engine block. All our modern body armor techniques, all our typical methods for making us safer from bullets, really fall apart where slugs are concerned. They just aren't designed for something with that high mass.

I have learned new respect for slugs from this thread. Can we move this thread to the important topic section?

[Patriot12 11]

I think if somebody offered a bronze slug, it'd be the perfect solution. I'm pretty sure the game STALKER has them.

Would bronze even work? I thought that bronze was soft metal.

 

Density is more important than hardness, though obviously you want something that is reatively hard. Generally AP rounds are pure or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.

Won't a regular steel rod work?

[GTwannabe 1]

I think if somebody offered a bronze slug, it'd be the perfect solution. I'm pretty sure the game STALKER has them.

 

Remington Copper Solids... I just hate their MSRP ($3/round)

 

Shotgun slugs are low velocity with a large surface area. They tend to go SPLAT against thin steel plates that a rifle will punch clean through.

[lipadj46 2]

I think if somebody offered a bronze slug, it'd be the perfect solution. I'm pretty sure the game STALKER has them.

Would bronze even work? I thought that bronze was soft metal.

 

Density is more important than hardness, though obviously you want something that is reatively hard. Generally AP rounds are pure or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.

Won't a regular steel rod work?

 

Yes but not as well as say a hardened steel. There is that chinese 7.62x39 with a mild steel core that people sell as AP but is not really as effective as a true AP round. Another thing you have to worry about is barrel wear and tear that is why the Black Talon rounds were teflon coated because they are hell on rifling.

Edited March 8, 2009 by lipadj46

[Twinsen 86]

This cop killing bullet thing is pure non-sense and a democratic fart of someone brain.

Any bullet can kill a cop and AP ammo are AP ammo, not some cop killing evil ammo.

There are already some 12 gauge AP slugs on the market today and AP slugs are fairly easy to make.

You just need an aerodynamic hard core traveling at great velocity.

Something like a tungsten dart in a three parts plastic sabot will do the trick quite nicely.

If you are lazy, you can look in the arrow head department and make a plastic sabot for what you like.

 

You can make plastic sabots somehow, somewhere?

[csspecs 1,987]

Just thought that it should be pointed out that steel or any other penetrating metal core will still need to be going fast enough. (Edit) I see that point has already been made.

 

I don't think that the 12 gauge slug is fast enough to make this type of thing work anyway.

 

But if I was going to try it I would probably start by finding a maker of shotgun wad that had sabots to .50cal and use a AP .50 bullet, it would just seem to be the logical starting point.

 

Other then that solid copper rod in about .665 (I think) would seem to be the next option, then get handy with a lathe and turn your own copper (or any other metal) slugs..

 

I still think that it would be better trying to start with a bigger faster round then trying to make a bird gun do something it can't.

Edited March 8, 2009 by csspecs

[TheGlobule 1]

This cop killing bullet thing is pure non-sense and a democratic fart of someone brain.

Any bullet can kill a cop and AP ammo are AP ammo, not some cop killing evil ammo.

There are already some 12 gauge AP slugs on the market today and AP slugs are fairly easy to make.

You just need an aerodynamic hard core traveling at great velocity.

Something like a tungsten dart in a three parts plastic sabot will do the trick quite nicely.

If you are lazy, you can look in the arrow head department and make a plastic sabot for what you like.

 

You can make plastic sabots somehow, somewhere?

 

Drill and cut a plastic wad. It is only guide for the dart to get out of the barrel. Use a solid wad between this and the powder.

Me? I would just use the AP missile ammo for 12 gauge or insert a flechette in a 7/8 oz slug.

[Twinsen 86]

I was looking to load up some of those flechettes, but couldn't figure out a way to keep them away from the bore. I need to keep an eye out for wads that can be cut for such use. Mine won't cut it.

[Eric Pate 478]

The original teflon coated armor piercing "cop killers" that started the whole "teflon coated bullet" paranoia back in the 80's were a simple steel bullet with a teflon jacket and a half-guilded metallic base. Due to the light bullet they move at incredible velocities. The guilding protects the bullet base and allows it to engage the rifling correctly. They originally used tungsten cores but quickly realized that steel was just as effective but greatly cheaper and easier to work with. The company was called KTW, IIRC, and they only sold a small quantity to law enforcement.

[Patriot12 11]

The original teflon coated armor piercing "cop killers" that started the whole "teflon coated bullet" paranoia back in the 80's were a simple steel bullet with a teflon jacket and a half-guilded metallic base. Due to the light bullet they move at incredible velocities. The guilding protects the bullet base and allows it to engage the rifling correctly. They originally used tungsten cores but quickly realized that steel was just as effective but greatly cheaper and easier to work with. The company was called KTW, IIRC, and they only sold a small quantity to law enforcement.

I thought only hand gun armour piercing was illegal. Am I wrong?

[lipadj46 2]

The original teflon coated armor piercing "cop killers" that started the whole "teflon coated bullet" paranoia back in the 80's were a simple steel bullet with a teflon jacket and a half-guilded metallic base. Due to the light bullet they move at incredible velocities. The guilding protects the bullet base and allows it to engage the rifling correctly. They originally used tungsten cores but quickly realized that steel was just as effective but greatly cheaper and easier to work with. The company was called KTW, IIRC, and they only sold a small quantity to law enforcement.

I thought only hand gun armour piercing was illegal. Am I wrong?

 

Some states have specific bans on all AP and or incendiary ammo.

[vbrtrmn 167]

I think the fact is that an attacker wearing body armor vs an S12 with a 5+ round magazine with slugs is going to wind up with a bunch of splinters and dust for a rib cage and organs which resemble scrambled eggs... and that's if the slugs don't happen to penetrate. If there is penetration, the slugs will probably be slowed down significantly, by the armor, bones and meat; which may make the armor a nice place for them to bounce around on the inside, resulting in swiss cheese. In the end said if said attacker isn't dead, he's going to wish he was. Shit, even close range with 00 buck is going to fuck someone up with body armor. Frankly, if showing your attacker your shotgun doesn't dissuade him, he's going to have an unfortunate day.

Edited March 9, 2009 by vbrtrmn

[dvdivx 0]

Shooting through car metal or especially windshields requires a bonded bullet like Speer's Golddot. Many bullets aren't bonded and will separate when they stike windshields.

 

AP rounds are legal providing they are made before the laws or rulings happened otherwise you can be a world of crap. .233 and .308 are also considered "handgun" rounds. Trying to play around heavily regulated things like AP rounds can leave you burnt. Also the performance of steel core ammo will be very poor compared to real AP rounds made from tungsten or depleted uranium. To get really amazing performance you would have to have ap incendiary rounds. The reason is that while steel is harder than lead it also has far less density.

 

As an example of stupidity Teflon bullets don't penetrate any better than other FMJ rounds but only protect the barrel from wear. Stupid AGs and politicians seemed to think that the round would somehow slide through Kevlar vests when it would actually have been more likely to separate then a decently made bonded bullet. The original Teflon bullet was a brass core bullet and the Teflon was there to protect the barrels. That bullet also was no better than a steel cored bullet since the density of bronze and brass are close to steel without the hardness that steel can offer.

Edited March 9, 2009 by dvdivx