Saiga .308 vs. Ar15(.223)

[paintwagon 18]

Im just wondering. I am set on the Saiga .308, and I will be buying one regardless. ive already got a 12. All the guys in the extended family have Ar-15 .223's of various grades. My dad wants to buy me something nice for my birthday, I dont want to look a gift horse in the mouth, nor do i want to ask him to spend more money on an ar-10(im 39, but not too old to accept it). It just has me thinking, like any old boy and his toys.

 

The answer may be to quietly auction it, and put the money towards an ar-10. He's not sentimental at all about things like that, and I wouldnt do it if he would be offended or hurt. I also dont want to go spending the money to supply the ammo for another caliber rifle, when I can double a stock of .308..

 

Does anyone here stay loyal to AR-15 .223's ? Would anyone rather use one under 200 yds? I know this is apples/oranges. Im kind of wondering about the varied responses i may get.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Edit: I just wanted to hear peoples thoughts. It will decide how much money I dedicate to the .223. Im leaning towards just sticking to.308, and keeping the .223 for the wife, and for ammo availability, or, even better, just upgrading to have an AR-10 set up for sniping, and the Saiga .308 for zombie protection.

Edited March 8, 2009 by paintwagon

[308Mike 0]

Depends on what you want it for....the AR's are lighter and parts supply in the future will be better...... at any range I'd take the Saiga in 308 over an AR in 5.56..... a 5.56/223 is still just a 22.... yes it is spinning it's ass off to stabilize the round the only real advantage to 5.56 is mill surplus ammo for 5.56 is cheaper not by much but it is and the recoil is less with an AR so follow up shots will be quicker but with the 308 you can hunt almost any North American game deer etc..... be different and show up the family with more fire power in the Saiga...... and if you already have a rifle in 308 then even better

[Wheel 0]

I love my ARs. But I've never hear of "caliber loyalty." a .308 is a totally different ballgame. An AR-15 is an assault rifle. An FN FAL in .308 is a main battle rifle. The Saiga falls into the same category, I guess. I mean, it just has SO MUCH MORE PUNCH. I'm drooling over a .308 right now, I just don't have any money left after dumping it into ARs and SAIGA 12. lol. And ammo. Etc...

 

However, if I were left with the choice of either a 5.56 AR or a .308 Saiga I guess I'd have to go with the AR, just for the availability of ammo. Not like 5.56 is everywhere and cheap now, but certainly moreso than .308, and if SHTF I guarantee you'll have a better time hunting down some 5.56 than some .308. I donno, just depends on where you're looking, and what you intend to do with it.

[308Mike 0]

If you were looking at the Saiga in 223 then the AR would win out due to availability of parts and upgrades etc.... but with the Saiga in 308 it is a no-brainer get the Saiga and be happy ......

[rssfndly 14]

Anything gas piston driven is better than an AR gas system IMO. I liked my XCR so much I sold all my AR's. The XCR uses AR mags so I didn't need to buy different mags.

 

308 is my absolute favorite cartridge, however very expensive. I like the Saiga 308's, FAL's, and the M1A's.

 

I recommend a Saiga 308 or an XCR over an AR any day.

 

The XCR is not cheap, but the ammo is cheaper than 308.

[SOPMOD 254]

I love the way AR15's handle,I love the inherent accuracy but Kalashnikov is twice as reliable(MRBS) and 4 times as durable(MRBF) and the accuracy is adequate for a military silhouette to 600 yards with the S308.

 

Now for the rub,in town and in UO I choose the 7.63x39 over the 308 but if I had a family full of AR15 users I would seriously consider sticking with the AR15 and with the 223 caliber even though I think a properly converted Saiga 223 with the proper mags is a more robust weapon just for the sake of interoperability.

 

I still own 1 AR15 for the purpose of interoperability with locals of like mind(many of them look down their noses at Kalashnikovs out of ignorance) but I own a bunch of AKs because I believe in them.

 

May I suggest that if you get an AR15 that you opt to take full advantage of it's strength and get an 18-20in Chrome lined,NATO chambered,feedramp cut,1 in 7 twist,milspec unit with none of the aftermarket internal parts and it will serve you better both in accuracy,power and reliability than the short carbine models.

 

full length gas systems are much more reliable than carbine or even mid length gas systems.

20" barrels add velocity,energy and accuracy to a caliber that needs all it can get.

Chrome lined barrels outwear stainless of superdoopersniperwannabematch barrels 400%

NATO chambers are meant to handle a wider variety of 5.56 ammo and will run if a little dirty,SAAMI chambers "stick"

 

 

If I were forced to use an AR15 for serious purposes today I would opt for a clone of the USMC M16A4(flat top,20" government with an M5 RAS) and a 2MOA dot sight that cowitnesses with a QD mount and possibly a Millet DMS-1 on a QD mount with a cheap BUIS(backup iron sight) and feel that I was pulling off the best system possible given the caliber and platform we're discussing.

 

 

Or if you wanted to be a total Maverick and spend as much on magazines as you paid for the rifle you could opt for a Saiga 308 but if you better take care of those mags because once you can no longer order them online you will not likely ever find another and you'd have to scrounge up your own 308 ammo too so I hope you have deep pockets because in the end the S308 won't be any cheaper and it will demand more from you as a user to become skilled with both due to it's large caliber and crude mechanicals.

 

By the way my S308 will hold 2"@100 all day long but I have put a little work into it and I cut my teeth on horrible HK91 and FAL triggers,YMMV

 

I think you should get the AR15 by the way and then if you feel like saving up and buying your own Saiga 308 later than more power to you

Edited March 8, 2009 by SOPMOD

[thereisnospoon 1]

First, I wouold say that a gift should be as much for the receiver as possible, so if you being given a gift, I would think the person giving it to you would want you to have whatever you desire.

 

That being said, I can't really see a clear advantage of the AR over the Saiga .308. I own both and have used both in out local tactical rifle matches. I was faster with the AK and accuracy was a non issue as we only have one stage beyond 25 meter distance. That stage proved the undoing of my match, but not because the gun. Somehow, i sighted in about 2" high and 1" right at 100, so when I stretached out to 250 meters, I was missing the 8" steel badly. That ebing said, I was competative with the Ar guys on every other stage.

 

I know a tac match isn't real life, but it is the only way I have to compare the two.

 

I will always have an AR for several of the mentioned reasons, mostly my other team mates have ARs and we have mag and ammo commonality when defending ourselves and oure homestead location. However, we all have .308 rifles as well and we each have a different platform (one AR10, one M1A Scout and my Saiga).

 

I wouldn't let the idea that an AR is soimehow magic sway your decision. AN AR is a tool that you can train and use to the best of it's (and your) potential. You can do the same thing with a SAIGA .308 and have more punch to go with it.

 

YMMV

[unclejake 428]

Tough call Bubba, I just know that I really love my Saiga 308, just so much more punch than the 223, but then again, I am fortunate enough to own the 223 and the 308. In a real world SHTF situation, M16/ar15s would be around for the picking up, ...gawd, don't know where I'm going with this, like has already been said, if he gets you a AR15, keep it, because it came from your Dad, and that will mean a lot to you one day way too soon, and save up for a .308.

[loki0629 55]

Does anyone here stay loyal to AR-15 .223's ? Would anyone rather use one under 200 yds? I know this is apples/oranges. Im kind of wondering about the varied responses i may get.

Under 200 yds the .308 will turn most cover into concealment. I'm not a big AR/M16 fan although I have to admit the ergonomics and longer sight radius make it a good tool for the range and hunting. But I wanted an MBR so I went with the Saiga.

Remember that even though your family has their particular likes, you're going to have to decide what works for you. If investing in another caliber isn't a good fit, then stick with the .308. See if your dad is willing to put the difference in cost towards additional mags and ammo.

[mstranglr 9]

I agree with wheel on this one. Do you want an "assault rifle" or a "main battle rifle / designated marksman rifle". I have many examples of both guns.

 

If you want a light, intermediate caliber assault rifle for CQB, home defence, or to plink - the AR is a better choice IMO (although I prefer the 7.62x39 AK).

 

If you want it to distance shoot, target shoot, as a DM or "Saiganov" build, or to hunt - The .308 would be the better choice.

[Twinsen 86]

You could suggest to him that he buy you a nice optic instead of gun you may sell. That way you're set whichever gun(s) you choose.

[Greg_W 0]

An AR-15 is an assault rifle.

Do you want an "assault rifle" or a "main battle rifle / designated marksman rifle".

 

An assault rifle is a rifle designed for combat, with selective fire

Edited March 12, 2009 by Greg_W

[Greg_W 0]

Anyways...

I was in the same boat as you are. I bought an ar lower and was looking for an upper when I realized I could buy a saiga .308 for less than a complete upper. I decided I would use the .308 cartridge a lot more than the .223. So now I have what is better for my applications; 7.62x39(plinking and some hunting) and .308(mostly hunting).

Edited March 12, 2009 by Greg_W

[MagicMan 0]

Do what I did, get both...AR-15 .223 & Saiga .308

[mstranglr 9]

An AR-15 is an assault rifle.

Do you want an "assault rifle" or a "main battle rifle / designated marksman rifle".

 

An assault rifle is a rifle designed for combat, with selective fire

 

Most definitions of an assault rifle include semiautomatic also.

 

Please stop quoting Wikipedia (people like us make up those definitions) or I will go over there and change the definition of an assault rifle to a "dump truck".

 

American heritage dictionary, same definition in most dictionaries = http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dicti...assault%20rifle

 

You dont have to worry about being politically correct with the word "assault rifle" on this forum.

[Wheel 0]

lol.. I know that everyone here understands that no real military force in the world is going to choose a semi-auto rifle to mount an "assault."

 

I didn't know I had to tiptoe on eggshells here when it comes to this issue.

 

The point is obvious, there is a big difference between an assault-style weapon such as an AR-15, and a main battle weapon such as an FN FAL.

[SOPMOD 254]

lol.. I know that everyone here understands that no real military force in the world is going to choose a semi-auto rifle to mount an "assault."

 

I didn't know I had to tiptoe on eggshells here when it comes to this issue.

 

The point is obvious, there is a big difference between an assault-style weapon such as an AR-15, and a main battle weapon such as an FN FAL.

 

Depends on your fire discipline,many professional armies run their "Assault Rifles" in semi-auto more often than going cyclic

[Bayoupiper 738]

lol.. I know that everyone here understands that no real military force in the world is going to choose a semi-auto rifle to mount an "assault."

 

I didn't know I had to tiptoe on eggshells here when it comes to this issue.

 

The point is obvious, there is a big difference between an assault-style weapon such as an AR-15, and a main battle weapon such as an FN FAL.

 

 

 

So, following your logic, a selective fire S-12 shotgun is an assault rifle and a semi auto S-12 is a main battle weapon.

 

An S-308 can be either.

[jasecloud4 2]

Ummm... compromise: a gas piston system AR. I have the Patriot Ordnance POF-.308 gas piston AR-10 in the 14.5" variety. The sheer terror on peoples faces when they feel the wind from the muzzle brake hitting them in the face is priceless. Plus the boom as 147gr South African surplus ball flies out of it is well worth the money. The system gets rid of the gas impingement based key system that the AR is notorious for and simplifies it with a piston system. I have only had 2 jams in the past 1800 rounds, and that includes field time spent hunting with the thing. (Yes, I hunted with an AR-10; sue me). Long story short: AR precision, AK reliability; price though: a little steep.

 

One plus: it uses DPMS, and original AR-10 Stoner mags (what the Armalites took before they remade them), plus of course the proprietary POF mags. Hey, you can show up your families AR-15's and duke it out with your buddies AK in terms of reliability.

 

In response to those who think that military forces use full auto, here's a hint: U.S. Army soldiers are trained to NOT use BURST. That's right, the issued M-4's don't even have full auto. If we need full auto that bad then that's what we have our M249, M240, M2, or Mk 19 for. I should know, three years in, and still going (and if anyone says that any other military is better than the U.S.'s think of this: has your army conquered another country in less that 100 hours?).

Edited March 13, 2009 by jase

[Bayoupiper 738]

I've shot a f/a POF.

 

They are sweet!

[PinkFloyd 63]

Just my input. I swing Sig 556. Nuff said. If you're not familiar with the platform, I'd take a look at it.

[Bayoupiper 738]

A couple of our people have the 556.

 

It shoots real nice.

 

And the factory LEO price isn't bad either!

[unclejake 428]

MagicMan, you are a lucky man indeed!!

Edited March 14, 2009 by unclejake

[SOPMOD 254]

Just my input. I swing Sig 556. Nuff said. If you're not familiar with the platform, I'd take a look at it.

 

I will second that.If I had to go buy a 223 that accepted M16 mags the SIG556 is a better platform and is basically a highly modernized AK that takes M16 mags under the plastic and sheet metal.

 

I got one for a buddy of mine and when went to shoott he thing we bolted on a Trijicon Reflex and were going to dial it in and it was within 3 inches of dead on right out of the box.That indicated tremendous consistency in manufacture and build quality.

 

I wish they made the L version like the Swiss have though.

Edited March 14, 2009 by SOPMOD

[PinkFloyd 63]

I have my 556 setup for medium range; Magpul PRS fullstock, Samson rails, bipod, 3-9 Nikkon prostaff (crappy scope), running magpul Pmags. Shoots really well, easily 1.5 inch groupings.

 

The real advantage of the 556 of any stock M4 is that it's piston operated. Some M4s will come like that but they're much more expensive. 556's run about 1500 last time I looked, and they're expremely reliable. I have put 3k rounds thru the one I take shooting and it's never hiccuped, even when I first got it. Battery of arms is just like an M4 and the takedown is just as easy.

 

My only niggle with it is that it can't "readily" accept any aftermarket pistol grips. I don't mind the SAW grip tho; it has a nice storage compartment in it. The stock furnature is also crap, which is why i ditched mine and bought samson rails and one Magpul PRS. The other two have collapseable M4 style stocks that fold (another plus lol).

 

I'm VERY happy with mine; there's no other gun I'd rather trust my life to when the shit hits the fan... well... that I can buy . Limited funding you see, otherwise I would have bought a Noveske or something fancy like that.

 

Another gun you might like just for the cool factor is the Microtech AUG. I looked at one when I bought my 556 and didn't buy it... worst mistake ever from an investment standpoint. I could have gotten the collectors edition with a Microtech Currahe knife, extra mags and a pelican case for 1800. This was a year ago... now those run 3.5k easy. I saw one of those sets going for 5k at a local gun show. Only thing I can think of that I have wrong with the Microtech offering is I'm a little dubious about it's reliability and the fact that it can't accept M4 parts. Microtech afterall is a knife company... a good one, but it's just a name... their knives are nothing special, nothing you can't get in a Benchmade for half to a third of the price... I hope their guns aren't the same way. Besides that it's a bullpup and I know a lot of people don't like bullpups. I don't care one way or another, in fact I like they way they sit in your shoulder, but some people hate that.

 

If you like bullpups, the other gun to look at is the Fn2000... well... if you plan on spending money, because the moment you hold one you want one and without the proper restraint, you'll walk out of the store owning one lol. I love they waythe new FN's are set up ergonomically. P90's and F2k's are really freakin' sweet. The only downside to either of those is a lot of people feel scruntched up shooting them and don't like the triggers. The trigger feels very glockish, and is easy to get used to, but it's heavy and long. Nothing wrong with it, it just annoys some people.

 

Other places you might look if you like AR-15's is at 6.8 SPC guns. The ammo costs a little over twice what .223 costs, which makes the cost of owning and shooting out of my budget, but the ammo has proportionally more stopping power. There are also a couple new companies of 6.8 SPC who will start manufacturing more ammo this year if memory serves correctly. That'll help bring costs down, but lets be honest, when has ammo ever gotten any cheaper? Especially with our new administration shoving ammo taxes down our throats :/

 

Regardless of what you do, my vote is still with the Sig. I'm bias, I love Sig. I own 6 Sig guns and love every one of them. The 556's are no exception to the Sig reputation; to hell and back reliability fits them perfectly, and they're just fun to own. Shoot very well too haha.

[CR1 0]

I voted for the Saiga .308 and later was given a S&W M&P 15, which is supposed to be one of the nicer previously $1,000 AR's. From my experience the 5.56 round from a carbine works as moderately OK all-around cartridge. You can fire enough rounds out of it fast enough to compete with a shotgun, it's compact and light enough to use to clear a room as well as a handgun, and it can reach pretty far.

 

But then there's the Saiga .308 carbine which kicks everything else's a$$ at everything ever. I say get the saiga and a Kel-Tec PLR-16 just so you can use them STANAG 5.56 magazines. The more hilarious the weapons you have, the happier you'll be.

[Dah 0]

Well, I know it's a little off topic. can you guys who have played both comment on Robinson XCR vs SIG 556?

 

I was hesitating on which one to buy, well finally decided that I do have a saiga 308 now so maybe it's not so urgent for me to get another piston gun. So I bought a AR instead. But, you know, it's really hard to resist the temptation ...

Edited April 8, 2009 by Dah