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few newbie questions


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I recently picked up a saiga 7.62 and I love it. I was wondering what the best sight out there is for approx 100-150 yards target and animal shooting. I am leaning towards the pos-8 but I dont know if it is overkill. Will the pos-6 or even 4 work? What are some of the major differences in these? Also I will be doing the high caps and psitol grip conversion sometime. Is there anywhere where I can find detailed instructions, possibly even pictures on step by step instructions on how this is done. Thanks in advance for all your help and I look forward to posting much more on this site.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am not all knowing about the assult rifle thing, but I do hunt and know a fair amount about optics and ballistics. For one I think a 8 power fixed scope would be a bit over kill in this situation. Two I would look at a mount that would let you put a scope of your choice on. Not a scope that is fixed to the mount, which is what I think you are refering to. I have not seen one these personally, but from what I have seen they are not all that impressive to me. Kind of odd and old looking to me, as in outdated.

 

The rifle you have is a medium range weapon, you will not really be shooting longer distances with it. And from what I understand they are not really that accrurate, or because of the trigger are hard to shoot well. So the magnification would really not be needed. Extra magnification will do two things for you. It will help you see your target at longer distances, or help you shoot more precisely at closer ranges. Since this weapon does not really excell at either of these, why bother with it. Higher power scopes are harder to get on target with, and like said above decrease the field of view. They also limit eye relief in some instances, and magnify any inherent flaws in the optics.

 

You also don't need the illumanted recticle. I have a scope with it, and while it looks cool, I have never needed it to kill game with. Just adds weight to your rig.

 

I would look at a 4 power set up with maybe 32 or 40 mm objectives. Or better yet a variable like a 3x9 or 1.5x4. Maybe a bushnell Trophy series or a better BSA or something along those lines. A red dot would be cool also, although you have no magnifacation at all if that is what you are looking for.

 

The above sight system looks cool, but for the prices I have seen it for it seems a bit pricey for this type of rifle. What are you thinking about hunting with this gun? And where do you live? It makes a difference in what optics I would choose.

 

Good luck,

Paul

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There are plenty of scope mounts available for the side mount rail on your Saiga which allow you to use Weaver rings. CDNN and K-Var both carry them, as do several other sources.

 

You are correct about the 4x scope. Considering that 300m is about the extreme range for taking game with 30 COmbloc, the POSP 4x scope is hard to beat. It has a pretty accurate rangefinder that looks like this:

posp_4x24_ret_400.gif

 

I like dot sights for moving targets. With the dot sights, you can swing though a moving target just like pass shooting with a shotgun with pretty good accuracy.

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I agree with Paul that an 8X scope would be overkill on these 7.62X39 caliber rifles but on a .308 Saiga the higher magnification scope would be nice. However, the Russian PSO4X24V-1 scope on the other hand would be hard to beat as the Sheik said. I have both a PSO4X24V-1 and a PK-S01 seen in the Sheik's above post. These scopes are offset to the left but work VERY well. The V-1 PSO has an excellent rangefinder and the illuminated reticle is a great feature for low light shooting. Last year, I was able to take a nice 8 point whitetail deer due to the fact that the scope I was using had an illuminated reticle. I now desire this feature in scopes that I purchase, even for hunting. The PSO4X24V-1 comes with an integral side mount that attachs directly to the rifle. I have a partially converted Saiga hunting rifle with a muzzle brake and pistol grip, setup just for hunting. It has an always attached, PSO4X24V-1 scope. These scopes are Russian and although you might think they are ugly they are overbuilt like most Russian equipment and will last a long time. They are a FAR better choice than the off the shelf cheap hunting scopes that you can get at discount dept stores, Tasco, BSA, Bushnell, etc...! So if money is an issue, these Russian scopes are an excellent value. I paid only $99.95 for my PSO4X24V-1 and it came with batteries and accessories. The PK-S01 Black Dot/Red Dot sight also was an excellent value at $209.95. Compared to other red dot sights of the same quality they are a bargin. Very clear! The PK-S01 is setup for the 5.45X39 caliber, not the 7.62X39. It is adjustable for different ranges for the 5.45 rifles. I am currently having a 7.62X39 Saiga converted into a 5.45X39 AK74, just for this sight. Not many PK-S01 sights were imported into the country because they are banned from export from Russia. The sights that made it here were basically smuggled in. These are current Special Forces issue sights for Russian troops in Chechnya.

I just wanted to shed more light on these scopes as they really are worth considering and a great deal.

Thanks,

swon

post-5-1071070299.jpg

Edited by swon
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I would have to see one of those things to really believe it. I would not spend that kind of money on something sight unseen, especially on optics. and I can't see where having your scope sit off to one side would be that good for down range accuracy.

 

And while those scopes and the recticles look cool, I would not want to hunt with one. A little too busy for my tastes. The range finder looks neat, but you really don't need it. The 7.62 shoots pretty flat out to 200 yards any way. Beyond that it really does not retain enough energy that I would feel comfortable taking deer sized game with it.

 

They make some 150 grn hunting loads in this caliber, but they really were not made for these rifles. Cor-bon makes one that would work really nice. I don't think the gun would explode if you used them every now and then, but I would not make a habbit out of it. But then again if these things were designed to shoot full auto, a few hunting loads should work just fine.

 

Just my opinion any way.

 

Oh, and they have a 8x24 russian scope for the 7.62x39. One has a maximum range of like 400 meters or something, that is the one calibrated for the 30 cal. ammo. Basically one scope has a longer range, and one is shorter. The shorter is for our caliber guns. At those ranges I would not trust it on game without shooting it first at each range to verify impact.

 

Paul

Edited by Paul Mohr
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papasmurf, you need to contact Doug Ford at Tantal. Check out his webpage to see the various scopes and accessories he has. He's a great guy to deal with. I buy all of my scopes and AK accessories from him. You can't go wrong, E-mail him and he'll answer your questions and help you make an educated choice of what scope to purchase.

 

http://www.tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/

 

Paul, all the scepticism is really unfounded. The Warsaw Pact nations have always overbuilt everything they produced. That's one of the reasons the Iron Curtain fell. Ever see a MIG jet? These scopes look just like they do in the pictures. They are very high quality. I bought mine sight unseen. If they weren't what I expected I would have sent them both back. The optics of the PK-S01 rival anything in the West. A military contract Aimpoint is $484. I only paid $209.95 for my PK-S01. I have a BSA red dot sight that I paid $39.95 for. Of course, it's worth about that much too. If you like something better that's fine but I can't see it myself. Fall down on a Bushnell and see what's left. These are rugged to say the least. I have both of these scopes and I can assure you they work well and are worth every penny. The one I have is the PSO4X24V-1. It is made for Kalashnikov AK rifle. The chevrons are already calibrated for the 7.62 Soviet round. You will NOT find a better scope for an AK period. These are made for them. $99.95 is not much for an optical sight. I have Leupold scopes that cost over $800. Personally, I wouldn't put a high dollar scope on a cheap rifle. I say cheap but I'll have $750 in my AK74 and $500 in my AK103.

These scopes are perfect for these rifles. I shoot all my rifles at different ranges to verify how they work and bullet impact. The fact that the scope sits off to the left has no effect on the way it works. At 100 yards my hunting rifle shoots 2" groups all day long. It opens up a bit at longer distances but most of my shots are within 100M or so. I like the military stuff better than the civilian, over the counter, same old crap, different name stuff. Coming from a military family, it's what I grew up with. My first rifle was a military .30 Carbine with a side mounted scope. I took plenty of deer with it and the offset scope was never a problem.

The other AK scope is setup for 1000M. I never planned to shoot these rifles that far so my choice was easy. If some needs shot that far away I have an M24 setup with an M3 scope.

Just my opinion! Oh, I've been shooting "assault weapons" for 30 years and I was a gun dealer with my own shop for 13 years.. You probably can't name one I haven't shot or owned. I bought my first SP-1 (Colt AR15) at the age of 20 and an AK at 21. I've never been without one of each in the 20 years since.

swon

post-5-1071154810.jpg

Edited by swon
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My point was that I have no reason to steer anyone in the wrong direction. I just wanted to let everyone know how good I think these optics are. I don't get kick backs or anything like that.

 

When looking through the Black Dot/Red Dot PK-S01. The outside ring of the sight disappears, because you shoot with both eyes open. This helps with fast target aquisition. There is no faster way to get on target. The dots are in the same plane as the target so you only focus on the target. The dots are also on top of one another so one sight in is all you need.

swon

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When I said that was my opinion, I meant just that. I was not saying you were wrong and I was right. Hunting is a very individual sport where everyone has an opinion. I myself am curious about how nice these scopes are. From the pictures I have seen they don't look that great at all, again just an opinion. That does not mean they don't have decent optics, but how can you tell without actually looking thru one. If you want to order one without seeing it first be my guest, I don't want to risk it myself. Maybe if I see one at a gun show or something and like it I'll pick one up.

 

If you really like all that crap in your recticle when you hunt, fine, I don't and I said so. You certianly don't need it to take game, especially out to 150 yards or so.

 

You have been around guns for some time, so you know the limitations of certain rifles and cartridges, others don't. They assume that if they get a scope that ranges out to 300 or 400 yards it's ok to hunt game with it. They don't take into account that the range finder and scope is set up for a praticular load and bullet. And that that load really does not have enough energy to effectively take large game at that distance. Not to mention I doubt these guns are that accurate at longer ranges. Probably good enough to hit a human, but good enough to take game humanely? Injuring a human and putting one thru the vitals of a deer are two different things.

 

Alot of people also think the 7.62x39 is the same as a 30-30 win., it's not. With the right loads it is close, but the 30-30 has a heavier bullet at close to the same velocities which equals better downrange KE. It also has better bullets with controled expansion designed for hunting providing better energy transfer. And the 30-30 is a medium range weapon to begin with.

 

I'm not saying the AK won't take game well, it will. If you use the right ammo and know it's effective range. I wouldn't advise someone to try taking a 200lb deer at 300 yards with cheap ass 123 grn FMJ's. You could try it, but I hope you have good tracking skills and like to see game suffer. 'Cause that is most likely what is going to happen.

 

You can't honestly tell me you ran a shop and an AK with FMJ light rounds would be your first choice in a hunting rifle. It will work, but I can certainly think of better. Especially if you have dropped 700 bucks into one. That would buy you a damn nice 270 or 243.

 

I am not trying to be an ass if that is how you are seeing it. I am just trying to clarify my point. Do you get where I am coming from? And you are right, the BSA red dot is pretty junky, I own one, but some of their better scopes are not bad for the money. I have three of them. I never would have bought one of them without seeing it either. I am picky about that kind of stuff, that is all I am saying.

 

Paul

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After re-reading all the posts I do sort of see your point. The russian scope probably is a good deal when you consider how much the mount and scope together would cost. I am sure at least has optics as good as a simmons or BSA, especially the ones at wally world, hopefully better.

 

My scope was 110 and the mount was 40 from a local shop. And mine is a bit over kill for this gun, 3.5x10x50 with an illuminated recticle. But with the harris bibod it looks bad ass. I didn't really get it to hunt with, just a toy pretty much. You can't hunt deer with a centerfire rifle where I live, I would have to go to the UP. And then the magazine holds too many round to be legal anyway. I use an inline muzzle loader for gun season here. It's good for 150 yards also ( 1 inch groups at 100 yards)

 

Paul

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I wasn't trying to be a jerk toward you at all. The point I was attempting to make was that they are at least worth a look, even if you don't buy one. Just don't totally disregard them. You're right, if you buy the side mount that you need to mount a regular scope plus rings and then the scope, you've put out quite a bit of money. That's what I was driving toward. I guess didn't make it clear. My fault. The 3.5X10 is a bit much on an AK, I agree.

 

I would never advocate the AK as a hunting rifle period and the FMJ rounds would probably kill a deer. There are much better choices! That being said I have killed deer with a Norinco MAK-90 that I owned a number of years ago and hunted with. This rifle was equipped with a side mount scope and a cheap Bushnell 3X9 scope. It did just fine with soft-point hunting rounds. I even reloaded some Nosler 125gr. Ballistic Tips that shot very well in it.

 

I never said any of my AKs were my main hunting rifle, they aren't. I own many rifles, many more than my wife thinks I should. My favorite is a Browning BAR Safari II in 7mm Rem Mag with a Leupold 3.5X10-40 scope. I also have a new Remington M700ADL in .300 Win Mag. with a 3.5X10-50 BSA Catseye scope that I bought last year. This Catseye scope is one of BSA's best scopes. Very nice. I have a couple custom Mausers. One particular Mauser rifle that my father bought me, is being rebuilt with a new nutmeg laminated stock and the BSA Catseye is going on it. These rifles have taken numerous deer over the years. I also like the 6.5X55 Swedish Mauser rifles and I have a few of those too. The military semi-automatic rifles are a hobby for me and something I really enjoy. Hunting with these unconventional rifles is also something I enjoy. I remember going out with my Springfeild M1A equipped with a 3.5X10 Bushnell Trophy scope, to shoot groundhogs. My buddies were like, that thing is semi-automatic you won't hit anything with it. They became believers by the end of the day after witnessing a few 350 yard shoots and one off-handed 100 yard shot on a running groundhog. My Dad was a Sniper in the Army and taught me to shoot well. I have also shot whistlepigs at over 500 yards with my BAR.

 

I understand about getting something for your money and buying sight unseen. I like to look at most of the scopes I purchase before I put down my money too. The exception to this would be a Leupold M3 that I purchased without looking at, an AN-PVS 2, and my Russian scopes. So far only the AN-PVS 2 has not met my standards. It's a bit to heavy and larger than I really wanted.

 

I hope we can still be friends, Paul.

swon

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That is the exact scope I own. I also have a 4x16x50 AO on my .22 long rifle (catseye also). BSA makes some pretty run of the mill cheap crap like the rest of them, but for the money some of the better scopes are not bad. They have one line above these that costs a bit more, but I have not seen them. When I was looking for scopes I could not find anything that was much better until I got to the 300 dollar mark. Once you step into the 500 and up range like a ziess or something there is a very big difference in quality of optics, especially at higher powers. My buddy has a simmons 44 Mag that is pretty nice also. The only thing I don't like about the catseye is the recticle. I don't care for the military post for hunting. I would rather have a duplex recticle, but I got used to it fast.

 

I didn't mean to insinuate that the ak was all you hunted with either. It was more of a statement than an acusation. I knew you would not go a long with it, at least I was hoping any way. I just think that some poeple come to some of these forums and get the impression that the AK is an awsome infallible machine capable of anything. While it is a great design and superbly reliable, it does have limitations. In the area I live it would work really well. The 7.62x39 or 30-30 is a well suited cartridge for michigan hunting, at least in the woods and brush. If you live in an area that is more open or out west, you might find yourself wanting a little more.

 

If money was not a concern for me, I would be shooting what you are. I love Brownings. I might opt for the A-bolt with a boss, but just because I like bolt actions. I would be happy with a BAR also no doubt. I also think the M1A is an excellent gun, and the prices reflect that. I used to have a mauser also, an 8mm. I gave it to a friend when he got orders to go to Texas. He hunted, I didn't at the time. I just thought the gun gun looked cool so I bought it, didn't really have a need for it. I also owned a SKS before, but sold it during the Rodney King riots when I lived in CA.

 

I think my next purchase will be one of those single shot Handi rifles. I'm thinking a .223 with a bull barrel, maybe .243. They are a bit ugly, but from what I understand they are very accurate for the money.

 

I have a question for you, I asked it on AKnet but no one replied. How good is the detachable mount for these guns. I have the one made at the same plant as the gun and imported by EAA. The one with the rings built into it. It fits very well on the gun and the lever locks on a pin so it can't back out. I was wondering how well they keep a zero after you take them off and reinstall them? Are they dead on, close to center, or AFU? As good as the fit is, I would think they would work alright. I need to get some more ammo this weekend and I will test it to see, but I wondered what kind of luck you have had with them.

 

Paul

 

By the way, I think we are the only people on this board! It is pretty slow most of the time.

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The Catseye scope is a very good scope. I used mine last year to take a very nice 8-point Whitetail. I had that deer mounted and he's here on the wall staring at me now. Although I like that scope a lot, it will be replaced by a new Leupold on my Remington .300 Win Mag. This rifle is my main all around hunting rifle and needs a better scope. Most people think the .300 is too big for deer but I stepped up to it after loosing a huge Whitetail a few years ago with a .30-06. I actually put a nice shot on it but he trotted off like he was uninjured. We blood trailed him after waiting a considerable time but he was not recovered. I have a Mauser in .30-06 that is getting a .338-06 barrel for this reason also.

 

I find that most scopes fall into 4 categories basic, mid-range, excellent and over-priced. Basic, anything under $200. Mid-Grade, $400 and below, Excellent, any Burris, Leupold, IOR, Nikon, Pentax or similar scope priced from $400 to $1200. Overpriced, any Swarovski, Zeiss, Schmitt & Bender, Kahles, etc. Must be German and priced from $900 to $2000. The basic and mid-grade scopes are very good and have the biggest share of the market. Most scope makers (except the Germans) have scopes that fall into the lower price ranges because the market is so big. I love the German stuff. I don't own any. The closest I can come is a couple of pair of Steiner binos.

 

As for the Russian mounts and scopes. I have a few of these mounts but I have to admit these were all recent purchases. I bought my first Saiga about 2 months ago. I have never removed one of the mounts or scopes and reinstalled it to check zero. Mine feel very tight and my guess would be, it should be very close. It's adjustable to make it tighter also.

swon

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