Still FTE, whats next?

[jeepranch 16]

Ok, Ive read all the FTE fixes I can find, and I still cant get my 19 inch stock Saiga 12 to function, heres what Ive done

 

Out of the box, no extraction on setting 1 or 2 with Fiochi reduced recoil 00 buck, or any birdshot load, up to heavy 1 1/8 number 8s, havent tried slugs or full power buck yet. Ive put about 50 rounds through it.

 

Pulled the gas regulator and could clearly see 3 ports, none blocked by the gas sleeve. used a paperclip and all the holes were open. Made sure the regulator was backed out the appropriate number of turns.

 

pulling back the bolt carrier was rough as a cob, polished the rails inside the gun, polished the bolt carrier slots they ride in, and the bottom of the bolt where it rides over the hammer, also the the bolt handle was dragging on the receiver, and I polished this down so it would clear. Tried it for function with the fiochi buck, still no extraction, and you could still feel the bolt carrier binding when you pulled it about half way back.

 

After reading a few more threads I polished the spring entrance to the bolt carrier, as it was binding, noticed the rear spring was bulging out in several directions when I pulled the bolt back without the dust cover on (is this normal). So I polished the spring entrance to the bolt carrier. Helped immensely, Bolt is very smooth now when you pull it back, but still FTE, although it looks to be better.

 

Tomorrow I will get some duck loads and slugs to see if it will function at all, if not what should I try next? cutting the spring down? I really dont want to buy a new piston, or gas regulator

 

learning alot, but obviously Im not there yet.

thanks

[TheGlobule 1]

You can replace the gas puck by the King Armory one and the gas plug by Gunfixr's plug (available through MD Arms)

[jeepranch 16]

You can replace the gas puck by the King Armory one and the gas plug by Gunfixr's plug (available through MD Arms)

Thanks, but I really dont want to put any more money in it, unless one of these was a surefire fix? which one would you try first?

[Picard 0]

I just tried my new S-12 and had ejection problems as well. I tried to go skeet shooting with it and it wouldn't cycle the range loads. They were standard 1 1/8 oz, 7 1/2 shot shells. I thought my shotgun was messed up. Well, after taking it apart and looking it over, I tried some Federal Heavy Field Load 1 1/8 oz, 7 1/2 shot shells and they cycled on gas setting 2. Then, I tried shooting a 00 Buck, 3 inch shell on gas setting one and it also cycled fully.

 

This is my hypothesis for the Saiga's coming out now. They only have 3 gas holes in the barrel, which makes them more geared towards heavier loads. Even the Heavy Field loads will not work on gas setting 1, they need to be adjusted to gas setting 2. I am guessing that this makes the Saiga wear less by making the bolt carrier cycle more slowly on the really heavy loads due to less gas entering the gas tube. After all, the Saiga was made to cycle through heavier recoiling shells, not the reduced recoil stuff.

 

Personally, I think that some of the Saigas out there that cycle all shells on setting 1, whether low recoiling or not, may be wearing excessively when using 3" buckshot or slug loads. The gun was not made to cycle light loads on setting 1. If it does, heavy loads would really slam the bolt back if there is enough gas to cycle from a light load on the same gas setting.

 

My advice, try some of the heavy field loads on setting 2 and 3" buckshot or slugs on setting 1. Your gun should cycle fine with those.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Picard

[kingjoey 5]

You can replace the gas puck by the King Armory one and the gas plug by Gunfixr's plug (available through MD Arms)

Thanks, but I really dont want to put any more money in it, unless one of these was a surefire fix? which one would you try first?

 

 

Tell you what, I'll send you a tappet. If it fixes your problem, pay the invoice, if it doesn't take care of your problem then send it back. Sound reasonable?

[cscharlie 107]

You can replace the gas puck by the King Armory one and the gas plug by Gunfixr's plug (available through MD Arms)

Thanks, but I really dont want to put any more money in it, unless one of these was a surefire fix? which one would you try first?

 

 

Tell you what, I'll send you a tappet. If it fixes your problem, pay the invoice, if it doesn't take care of your problem then send it back. Sound reasonable?

 

That sounds like one heck of a deal!

[zone1935 5]

You can replace the gas puck by the King Armory one and the gas plug by Gunfixr's plug (available through MD Arms)

Thanks, but I really dont want to put any more money in it, unless one of these was a surefire fix? which one would you try first?

 

 

Tell you what, I'll send you a tappet. If it fixes your problem, pay the invoice, if it doesn't take care of your problem then send it back. Sound reasonable?

 

 

THAT is customer service. It also shows a faith in your product.

[officer960 0]

You can replace the gas puck by the King Armory one and the gas plug by Gunfixr's plug (available through MD Arms)

Thanks, but I really dont want to put any more money in it, unless one of these was a surefire fix? which one would you try first?

 

 

Tell you what, I'll send you a tappet. If it fixes your problem, pay the invoice, if it doesn't take care of your problem then send it back. Sound reasonable?

 

 

I have a three hole Saiga 12 that wouldn't cycle any low brass rounds. It works like a charm with everything else, but the purpose of this shotgun in my collection is to shoot a lot and that means... cheap ammo. I just got one of your tappets and it still does not cycle low brass on setting 2. It did seem to improve a little; Federal "Walley World" bulk pack shells now will push the carrier back enough that the hulls get lodged between the bolt and chamber but they don't eject. Before the tappet they would remain in the chamber. Obviously I'm getting closer, but need just a little more to get it functional with the lower power shells. What do you recommend next?

[TheGlobule 1]

You can replace the gas puck by the King Armory one and the gas plug by Gunfixr's plug (available through MD Arms)

Thanks, but I really dont want to put any more money in it, unless one of these was a surefire fix? which one would you try first?

 

 

Tell you what, I'll send you a tappet. If it fixes your problem, pay the invoice, if it doesn't take care of your problem then send it back. Sound reasonable?

 

 

I have a three hole Saiga 12 that wouldn't cycle any low brass rounds. It works like a charm with everything else, but the purpose of this shotgun in my collection is to shoot a lot and that means... cheap ammo. I just got one of your tappets and it still does not cycle low brass on setting 2. It did seem to improve a little; Federal "Walley World" bulk pack shells now will push the carrier back enough that the hulls get lodged between the bolt and chamber but they don't eject. Before the tappet they would remain in the chamber. Obviously I'm getting closer, but need just a little more to get it functional with the lower power shells. What do you recommend next?

 

 

Did you check the gas ports and polished the bolt, bolt carrier and hammer?

If not, this is where you should have started...

If you did, I suggest you contact Cadiz to get your gun fixed under warranty.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

You can replace the gas puck by the King Armory one and the gas plug by Gunfixr's plug (available through MD Arms)

Thanks, but I really dont want to put any more money in it, unless one of these was a surefire fix? which one would you try first?

 

 

Tell you what, I'll send you a tappet. If it fixes your problem, pay the invoice, if it doesn't take care of your problem then send it back. Sound reasonable?

 

 

THAT is customer service. It also shows a faith in your product.

 

+1.

 

That is some "stand-up" stuff right there.

[jeepranch 16]

You can replace the gas puck by the King Armory one and the gas plug by Gunfixr's plug (available through MD Arms)

Thanks, but I really dont want to put any more money in it, unless one of these was a surefire fix? which one would you try first?

 

 

Tell you what, I'll send you a tappet. If it fixes your problem, pay the invoice, if it doesn't take care of your problem then send it back. Sound reasonable?

 

of course, how could I go wrong, Ill pm you my address

[hobbyshooter 59]

I just tried my new S-12 and had ejection problems as well. I tried to go skeet shooting with it and it wouldn't cycle the range loads. They were standard 1 1/8 oz, 7 1/2 shot shells. I thought my shotgun was messed up. Well, after taking it apart and looking it over, I tried some Federal Heavy Field Load 1 1/8 oz, 7 1/2 shot shells and they cycled on gas setting 2. Then, I tried shooting a 00 Buck, 3 inch shell on gas setting one and it also cycled fully.

 

This is my hypothesis for the Saiga's coming out now. They only have 3 gas holes in the barrel, which makes them more geared towards heavier loads. Even the Heavy Field loads will not work on gas setting 1, they need to be adjusted to gas setting 2. I am guessing that this makes the Saiga wear less by making the bolt carrier cycle more slowly on the really heavy loads due to less gas entering the gas tube. After all, the Saiga was made to cycle through heavier recoiling shells, not the reduced recoil stuff.

 

Personally, I think that some of the Saigas out there that cycle all shells on setting 1, whether low recoiling or not, may be wearing excessively when using 3" buckshot or slug loads. The gun was not made to cycle light loads on setting 1. If it does, heavy loads would really slam the bolt back if there is enough gas to cycle from a light load on the same gas setting.

 

It's pretty easy to tell if the bolt is hammering on the rear trunion.

Edited March 16, 2009 by hobbyshooter

[officer960 0]

Did you check the gas ports and polished the bolt, bolt carrier and hammer?

If not, this is where you should have started...

If you did, I suggest you contact Cadiz to get your gun fixed under warranty.

 

Yes, all three ports are clear (dental pick goes through, visible through the barrel) and not covered by the gas block. Yes, I did polish the bolt carrier, edges of the bolt, and the hammer face first.

 

I don't expect it to work reliably with the very under powered, soft hull Winchester Universal, but I do want it to work with the Federal Sport Loads. I will give Cadiz a try, next I guess... just didn't want to send it off without trying everything else first.

[kingjoey 5]

Officer960, not meaning to ask the dumb question here, but is tappet installed correctly (i.e. the dished face foward)? You might also check and make sure the gas block bore is cleaned out completely, the new tappet fits a little tighter than the OEM part and will try to rip the old crud off the walls if the bore is dirty and that will bind it up a bit.

[officer960 0]

Officer960, not meaning to ask the dumb question here, but is tappet installed correctly (i.e. the dished face foward)? You might also check and make sure the gas block bore is cleaned out completely, the new tappet fits a little tighter than the OEM part and will try to rip the old crud off the walls if the bore is dirty and that will bind it up a bit.

 

Yes sir, it is installed correctly and I cleaned the crap out of the gas chamber then ran a dental pick through all three holes to ensure they were free of obstruction. The tappet moves freely (can hear it slide when shaking the gun front to rear) after the 25 rounds break-in outlined in the instructions that came with it. Again, it did improve the pressure; just not quite enough. I'm very happy with your tappet and will definitely be keeping it. As excellent as your product is, it can't fix the issue outlined below.

 

I just spoke to Cadiz Gun Works and they informed me that the Russians got some military contract barrels "mixed in" with the civilian ones. Military barrels were designed for high brass only, and even though the barrels have three holes, one is probably under-sized. It is essentially a 2 hole gun. Mine functions flawlessly with high brass, but being the cheap bastard I am, its gotta work with the cheap stuff! I hate to do it, but its going in for the warranty work to be done.

Edited March 16, 2009 by officer960

[brvt1000 2]

I hate to do it, but its going in for the warranty work to be done.

I had to send mine off also, right after I bought it. Mine was a "Vodka Special" and I never had the chance to shoot it even. When you do send it in however, Vicki told me they test function with the cheapo ammo to make sure it should work with anything. I look at it this way, when I get it back... I know it has functioned with the absolute basic ammo you can put in it so anything I do to it from here on out should (hopefully) make it work better!

[GimmeLiberty 0]

You can replace the gas puck by the King Armory one and the gas plug by Gunfixr's plug (available through MD Arms)

Thanks, but I really dont want to put any more money in it, unless one of these was a surefire fix? which one would you try first?

 

 

Tell you what, I'll send you a tappet. If it fixes your problem, pay the invoice, if it doesn't take care of your problem then send it back. Sound reasonable?

 

 

I have to say I am a big King Armory gas piston fan. I wish I would have tried it before ripping into my gas tube to see if it solved the problems. It really does a great job on the FTE issues. Improved my FTE problem from 75% to just 3% and that was with the cheap wally world shells. It was the best $47 I have spent on my shotgun by far.

[kmoore 3]

I'd try a low brass box of cheap just to be sure ... here's why.

 

I had a time when my shotgun had problems with a more powerful birdshot and slugs, but ran flawlessly on birdshot (specifically federal wallyworld 100 pks). In the middle of a match one day I got desperate, and I took out the buffer on my gun. Bam, problem gone!

 

The only think I can think of, was the extra power was bouncing the bolt off the back faster than the weaker stuff, and had a bit less time for ejection/extraction. Never proved it, but I've never put a buffer back in.

 

Possibly it's over powered and banging off the back of the shotty? Cheap to try out.

 

Good Luck!

[VanKiller 322]

Not to start a run on warranty for guns that don't need it.................But one production lot has shown up with three ports, but they are three small ports............and yes we have been running them thru under warranty.............after the customer at least attempts to make the gun function.......on the #2 setting.............LOL.........

[jeepranch 16]

Update

 

After I wrote the start of this thread, I put the Saiga up, with the bolt open until I could pickup some higher power loads.

Yesterday I picked up a box of 2 3/4 federal 00 buck, and 3 inch magnum slugs.

 

today was a great day, a good daty to shoot, as is every day. putting the setting on 1, both buck and slug functioned flawlessly, with ejection 5 feet. loaded up the med. field loads, changed the setting to 2, and the first one jammed. Then I had a bright idea, I put the gun to my shoulder and it functioned flawlessly with the med field loads. I ran it with the fiochi reduced buck the same way, and it jammed on the last shell, but still wouldnt eject the dove loads. Much, Much better, when I get the new tappet, I may be set, Im close.....................feels good.

 

you guys are great, thanks for all the help

 

Bill

[sunnybean 939]

Update

 

After I wrote the start of this thread, I put the Saiga up, with the bolt open until I could pickup some higher power loads.

Yesterday I picked up a box of 2 3/4 federal 00 buck, and 3 inch magnum slugs.

 

today was a great day, a good daty to shoot, as is every day. putting the setting on 1, both buck and slug functioned flawlessly, with ejection 5 feet. loaded up the med. field loads, changed the setting to 2, and the first one jammed. Then I had a bright idea, I put the gun to my shoulder and it functioned flawlessly with the med field loads. I ran it with the fiochi reduced buck the same way, and it jammed on the last shell, but still wouldnt eject the dove loads. Much, Much better, when I get the new tappet, I may be set, Im close.....................feels good.

 

you guys are great, thanks for all the help

 

Bill

 

Holding the bolt open for a week is the only thing that I can come up with as to why my S12's are running now. I did all the mods, like you, but that is the one that seemed to make the difference. I shot over 250 rounds of Fed #7.5 this weekend without a hitch. Very happy now.

 

I hope the KA puck works cures it all for you.

[Etek 32]

Update

 

After I wrote the start of this thread, I put the Saiga up, with the bolt open until I could pickup some higher power loads.

Yesterday I picked up a box of 2 3/4 federal 00 buck, and 3 inch magnum slugs.

 

today was a great day, a good daty to shoot, as is every day. putting the setting on 1, both buck and slug functioned flawlessly, with ejection 5 feet. loaded up the med. field loads, changed the setting to 2, and the first one jammed. Then I had a bright idea, I put the gun to my shoulder and it functioned flawlessly with the med field loads. I ran it with the fiochi reduced buck the same way, and it jammed on the last shell, but still wouldnt eject the dove loads. Much, Much better, when I get the new tappet, I may be set, Im close.....................feels good.

 

you guys are great, thanks for all the help

 

Bill

 

Holding the bolt open for a week is the only thing that I can come up with as to why my S12's are running now. I did all the mods, like you, but that is the one that seemed to make the difference. I shot over 250 rounds of Fed #7.5 this weekend without a hitch. Very happy now.

 

I suppose the Laws of Physics ceased to exist in your Saiga.

Compressing a spring will never 'break it in' or do anything else.

 

I'd guess y'all that are using cheap-shit ammo have an ammunition problem IF it otherwise cycles on known good ammo.

 

I hope the KA puck works cures it all for you.

[cellsworth 21]

You can replace the gas puck by the King Armory one and the gas plug by Gunfixr's plug (available through MD Arms)

 

+1! I have a two-hole "vodka special." It wouldn't cycle any low-brass ammo reliably on setting 2. After installing a Gunfixr gas plug, it now cycles all but the lightest target loads 100%. It is a cheap and easy fix too. Plus, it allows adjustments without tools.

[jeepranch 16]

You can replace the gas puck by the King Armory one and the gas plug by Gunfixr's plug (available through MD Arms)

 

+1! I have a two-hole "vodka special." It wouldn't cycle any low-brass ammo reliably on setting 2. After installing a Gunfixr gas plug, it now cycles all but the lightest target loads 100%. It is a cheap and easy fix too. Plus, it allows adjustments without tools.

 

anyone know why this works

[kmoore 3]

I suppose the Laws of Physics ceased to exist in your Saiga.

Compressing a spring will never 'break it in' or do anything else.

 

I disagree. That assertion makes a lot of assumptions about the spring in question. I believe most agree that springs can take an initial set, but then only wear over time with compression cycles (talking compression springs here, I don't know if it holds true for others or not).

 

I've had KRD bhp mags that I absolutely could not load the 17th round in. Loaded them with 16 and left them a couple of weeks. Ever since they've been loadable. I suppose the sides of the mag may have expanded? Or the feed lips might have relaxed? But I highly doubt it. I've used them for 8 or 9 years now and they are still very reliable and drop free. The effort to load them has remained more or less constant after I left them loaded the first time. ewww, this actually reminds me of another bhp mag. I bought one of those cheap 30 round mags for that bhp. It worked well thru several range outings untill I left it loaded up for 3 or 4 weeks. Hasn't fed reliably since. It was a cheap steel mag with no name given. I would guess that the spring was about as cheap as could be made.

 

I don't know what causes it, but MANY shooters swear that compressing a spring for a prolonged period makes an initial difference. That is, leaving them loaded afterward doesn't continue to reduce the strength of the spring. I suspect the only thing degrades the spring after it takes an initial set is the compression cycles.... and it takes 1000's to make that difference. If I had to do it over again, I would have miked the mags before and after so that I could definitely state that it's the spring and nothing else. As it is, I'm only 99.6 percent sure.

 

BTW, I've locked my 20ga open with hope that this might give reliability to that. Others have reported needing to run hundreds of high brass shotshells. I'm interested in fixing it for less $$

Edited March 21, 2009 by kmoore

[kingjoey 5]

Cycling a spring weakens it more than keeping it compressed. Its the flexing of it that breaks down its tension and resilience.

[super jim 14]

Since much of the energy on the ejection cycle is used to cock the hammer, would the reduce strenght main spring improve ejection on low brass? see link.

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/se...inspring/Detail

[jeepranch 16]

I dropped in the tappet that King Armory so graciously sent me, and now my saiga cycles on everthing at the number 2 setting, and buck, slugs on number 1, very happy now, thanks to all. now time for the conversion

Edited April 9, 2009 by jeepranch

[super jim 14]

I dropped in the tappet that MD arms so graciously sent me, and now my saiga cycles on everthing at the number 2 setting, and buck, slugs on number 1, very happy now, thanks to all. now time for the conversion

 

Which tappet is that? I don't see it on the MD website.

[kingjoey 5]

I dropped in the tappet that MD arms so graciously sent me, and now my saiga cycles on everthing at the number 2 setting, and buck, slugs on number 1, very happy now, thanks to all. now time for the conversion

 

Which tappet is that? I don't see it on the MD website.

 

Because it wasn't an MD tappet