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Disclaimer: I have not actually received the adapter I pre-ordered, so my feedback is based solely on the photos that have been posted on this board. As a result, please feel free to discount my opinion if you prefer.

 

Purely from an aesthetics standpoint, when I first saw the large MSA initials engraved on the side if the adapter I found it slightly off-putting. However, I can certainly appreciate wanting to put your logo or name on a product that you have designed from the ground up. I might suggest engraving your complete company name in a smaller font size, similar to the text on a standard AR lower. Alternatively, you have a nice company logo and perhaps a simplified and smaller version would also be appealing.

 

In addition, it appears that the anodizing is not quite right. The photos that have been posted show a purplish hue (which might be related to the flash photography), but I suspect I will end up moly coating my adapter to match the rifle.

 

That's my $0.01 (I'll offer the other cent when I actually receive the adapter) ;)

 

-d

Edited by dandingo
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Nathan,

 

As a former Product Development Director let me say bringing a new product to market is never easy and you are to be commended. In what appears to be the favorite words of our new president, "Let me be clear"... I like my adapter, only I mean what I'm saying and I'm not trying to muddy the water. You have some of the issues I had in getting my unit installed which caused failures to feed with hand cycling. Nothing major, but still may need some tweaking as I haven't yet had an opportunity to fire it. I believe you based the dimensions and fit on the Pmag which is a nice looking mag, just not sure I can validate another $100 for 3 or 4 mags which was the going price for the few individuals with any at last weeks gun show. I would do some testing on some of the aluminum mags out there such as the C-Products I purchased, which are very plentiful. I do notice when inserting these the aluminum to aluminum causes some drag from rubbing (mag tolerance too tight?) and the ones I have are teflon coated. As far as the comment on the purple hue it is the actual color and not from camera flash (I need some suggestions on how to get this black without having to take it all apart and painting it, do you think a blueing pen might do the trick?). In regards to the ambi mag release, it is on the stiff side and have not had a mag drop without having to take it out myself and not easily again due to the drag on the aluminum. Overall it is a solid piece of equipment and glad I purchased one, I am going to be very jealous and upset if you make some great improvement and I end up without it :D

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Thanks for the comments so far. One of the reasons for my inquiry was I wanted to find out personal experiences other than the responses I have gottin in email communications.

 

I too am a bit put off by the color as the color consistency is not there from batch to batch. I have tried two different plating companies and results have been the same. I am currently looking into powder coating as the color is true to what I want and expect for my customers.

 

The one variable that I cannot control is the mags. I recommend MagPul PMags as they are the most reliable mags to date I have run across. In testing of the adapter, various spring and follower tolerances among the numerous AR mag manufacturers impact the function of the adapter. While most if not all brands were favorable, there were a few that had tilt issues with the spring and follower. I am looking at revising the adapter with a little "Pad Material" so the end user can adjust the feed angle better for the mags used. While this may not completely eliminate the issue it will help with those right on the line.

 

Another issue with the various mags available is the stamping they use to manufacture. They greatly vary from one and another..... both dimension as well as location of the mag catch. .01-.02" can greatly affect feed reliability and fitting. All adapters were given a width of .90 for the mags as all fell under this number that I measured and tested. This doesn't mean there won't any chances of getting one that is bigger than the magwell. I do recommend taking a file to the inside of the adapter where the wear marks are to alleviate this if experienced.

 

Once again thanks for the comments so far.

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Nathan -- you don't (necessarily) want powder coating, you probably want Type III anodizing... Color results of that can be seen here. It adds about .001in to your thicknesses.

 

Sulfuric acid anodizing makes for deeper, more consistent colors; based on the color of my adapter, I'm guessing your shops were only using chromic acid. If they were using sulfuric acid, they were cutting corners on the dye lots. I've made anodized aluminum for jewelery - the dyes aren't cheap, and it takes a lot of dye to get good, rich colors, with black being particularly fussy.

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Nathan -- you don't (necessarily) want powder coating, you probably want Type III anodizing... Color results of that can be seen here. It adds about .001in to your thicknesses.

 

Sulfuric acid anodizing makes for deeper, more consistent colors; based on the color of my adapter, I'm guessing your shops were only using chromic acid. If they were using sulfuric acid, they were cutting corners on the dye lots. I've made anodized aluminum for jewelery - the dyes aren't cheap, and it takes a lot of dye to get good, rich colors, with black being particularly fussy.

 

Type III is what we were paying for, yet two independent shops still produced the same color results. I hadn't been to the KTOG site in a good while...... I am glad to see they are getting a good looking rail system for the Sub-Rifle...... Looks fantastic. :super:

 

Thanks for the advice, this will help if/when we go out of state. I have already contacted a few companies that do aerospace work as they come highly recommended from a local gunsmith who does work for the military. I will ask about the acid they were using to make sure.

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Nathan,

I've had my adapter for three weeks now. I was in quite a dilemma trying to decide whether to try to modify the rifle with a Dremel or bring it to a machinist to have it done professionally. Not having a machinist friend, I opted for a Dremel.

It took some careful work to get it to fit. I ground the receiver to a depth of .87" and widened it enough to accept the adapter. The key dimension was the front to rear. It took a bit of trial and "no errors" to get the adapter to snap in. I'm pretty sure that it was the extra dimension that was added by the anodizing process that caused the fitting problem.

My unit now fits and cycles rounds by hand using PMags only. I have some NHMTG 20 rounders and CProducts 30 rounders and at this point, neither will snap into place. I bought these mags because the concensus among the internet sites I viewed was that these were reliable metal mags. (as an aside, both manufacturers are within 5 miles of my house and are or were OEM for Colt MFG)

I really don't have much of a problem staying with the 4 PMags that I have. The adapter is very snug fitting, no probs. If I ground the receiver depth another .01-.02" the metal mags would probably snap in but what would happen to the PMag fit? I like the PMags more than the G.I. aluminums so it's an easy choice.

Yup, the color is a bit funky but I'm more interested in function.

THanks Nathan

 

S.E.A.L.s 3 - Pirates - 0

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That rail system is actually being developed by a KTOG member. He originally built a railed handguard for the PLR16, but hasn't been able to sell any of his prototype units, even with a good price break. He's getting a little worried about getting anyone to bite on his SU16 rails, which he figures will cost about $200 just for him to break even.

 

Fortunately for you, the Saiga/Galil/AK market is a lot larger than the SU16/PLR16 market, and your pieces have been a lot simpler...

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Nathan,

I've had my adapter for three weeks now. I was in quite a dilemma trying to decide whether to try to modify the rifle with a Dremel or bring it to a machinist to have it done professionally. Not having a machinist friend, I opted for a Dremel.

It took some careful work to get it to fit. I ground the receiver to a depth of .87" and widened it enough to accept the adapter. The key dimension was the front to rear. It took a bit of trial and "no errors" to get the adapter to snap in. I'm pretty sure that it was the extra dimension that was added by the anodizing process that caused the fitting problem.

My unit now fits and cycles rounds by hand using PMags only. I have some NHMTG 20 rounders and CProducts 30 rounders and at this point, neither will snap into place. I bought these mags because the concensus among the internet sites I viewed was that these were reliable metal mags. (as an aside, both manufacturers are within 5 miles of my house and are or were OEM for Colt MFG)

I really don't have much of a problem staying with the 4 PMags that I have. The adapter is very snug fitting, no probs. If I ground the receiver depth another .01-.02" the metal mags would probably snap in but what would happen to the PMag fit? I like the PMags more than the G.I. aluminums so it's an easy choice.

Yup, the color is a bit funky but I'm more interested in function.

THanks Nathan

 

S.E.A.L.s 3 - Pirates - 0

 

I can tell you that it will be fine if you want to go a hair deeper to .89" as that is what is printed in the instruction manual. My personal test mule I went to .94" deep and everything works like a charm. I use PMags and NHMTG mags.....Colt 20rnds and others military mags designed like it do not work as the top is to long and will not allow the mag to fully seat and lock in. I have 1000+ rounds through with 0 FTF's with these two types and I give it two thumbs up.

 

On a related note.........I am thinking that some of the isolated issues of the rounds not properly chambering is related to not being milled deep enough (causing the mag to sit nose down) this off angle may be causing the rounds to nosedive just south of the chamber....... or the follower or spring is not functioning properly and keeping the rounds level.

 

Go ahead and go .02" deeper and I think your mags will work. Let me know how it goes. Thanks

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That rail system is actually being developed by a KTOG member. He originally built a railed handguard for the PLR16, but hasn't been able to sell any of his prototype units, even with a good price break. He's getting a little worried about getting anyone to bite on his SU16 rails, which he figures will cost about $200 just for him to break even.

 

Fortunately for you, the Saiga/Galil/AK market is a lot larger than the SU16/PLR16 market, and your pieces have been a lot simpler...

 

 

This is exactly what I have been trying to explain about the adapter pricing..... It takes a good bit of money to get the vices and related hardware done for CNC milling. I hope he is having it done on a 4 axis mill if not he is incurring extra setup charges for each step that needs to be done. These could be reduced on a four axis. That and it takes a few runs to streamline the programming to reduce milling time and costs. The AR adapters require 6 setups and this is what adds the majority of cost to the overall price for the main adapter body. Then there is the two small parts that are milled separately. So I have a total of three pieces milled to make an adapter..... if it wasn't for the volume sold it would not be cost effective to do so.

 

I would be happy to talk to him if he wants some pointers to reduce his costs....... I am not sure if this is his first time tackling a project like this but it is a learning experience that he can use to look at other shops to bid the work or future projects. My experience had defiantly help me negotiate with other shops for current and future projects to help keep production costs down. Thanks.

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Disclaimer: I have not actually received the adapter I pre-ordered, so my feedback is based solely on the photos that have been posted on this board. As a result, please feel free to discount my opinion if you prefer.

 

Purely from an aesthetics standpoint, when I first saw the large MSA initials engraved on the side if the adapter I found it slightly off-putting. However, I can certainly appreciate wanting to put your logo or name on a product that you have designed from the ground up. I might suggest engraving your complete company name in a smaller font size, similar to the text on a standard AR lower. Alternatively, you have a nice company logo and perhaps a simplified and smaller version would also be appealing.

 

In addition, it appears that the anodizing is not quite right. The photos that have been posted show a purplish hue (which might be related to the flash photography), but I suspect I will end up moly coating my adapter to match the rifle.

 

That's my $0.01 (I'll offer the other cent when I actually receive the adapter) ;)

 

-d

 

Dan,

 

I am looking at changing the logo on the adapters to out our company logo....... I have my programmer looking at what we can do on current and future products. Thanks for the suggestions.

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I would be happy to talk to him if he wants some pointers to reduce his costs....... I am not sure if this is his first time tackling a project like this but it is a learning experience that he can use to look at other shops to bid the work or future projects. My experience had defiantly help me negotiate with other shops for current and future projects to help keep production costs down. Thanks.

 

This is his first firearm-related project, but I've gotten the impression that he does CAD/CAM type stuff for a living. He's doing his rails on a 5-axis machine, which he knows is increasing his costs. He seems like a nice guy - I use the same handle on this board as on KTOG, and I've PM'd him before, so if you do contact him, feel free to use my handle and/or name by way of introducing yourself.

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Nathan,

I've had my adapter for three weeks now. I was in quite a dilemma trying to decide whether to try to modify the rifle with a Dremel or bring it to a machinist to have it done professionally. Not having a machinist friend, I opted for a Dremel.

It took some careful work to get it to fit. I ground the receiver to a depth of .87" and widened it enough to accept the adapter. The key dimension was the front to rear. It took a bit of trial and "no errors" to get the adapter to snap in. I'm pretty sure that it was the extra dimension that was added by the anodizing process that caused the fitting problem.

My unit now fits and cycles rounds by hand using PMags only. I have some NHMTG 20 rounders and CProducts 30 rounders and at this point, neither will snap into place. I bought these mags because the concensus among the internet sites I viewed was that these were reliable metal mags. (as an aside, both manufacturers are within 5 miles of my house and are or were OEM for Colt MFG)

I really don't have much of a problem staying with the 4 PMags that I have. The adapter is very snug fitting, no probs. If I ground the receiver depth another .01-.02" the metal mags would probably snap in but what would happen to the PMag fit? I like the PMags more than the G.I. aluminums so it's an easy choice.

Yup, the color is a bit funky but I'm more interested in function.

THanks Nathan

 

S.E.A.L.s 3 - Pirates - 0

 

I can tell you that it will be fine if you want to go a hair deeper to .89" as that is what is printed in the instruction manual. My personal test mule I went to .94" deep and everything works like a charm. I use PMags and NHMTG mags.....Colt 20rnds and others military mags designed like it do not work as the top is to long and will not allow the mag to fully seat and lock in. I have 1000+ rounds through with 0 FTF's with these two types and I give it two thumbs up.

 

On a related note.........I am thinking that some of the isolated issues of the rounds not properly chambering is related to not being milled deep enough (causing the mag to sit nose down) this off angle may be causing the rounds to nosedive just south of the chamber....... or the follower or spring is not functioning properly and keeping the rounds level.

 

Go ahead and go .02" deeper and I think your mags will work. Let me know how it goes. Thanks

 

So, military mags dont work........F%$#.....Well that sucks. Oh well, so can the military mags be modified to fit? I dont mean to hijack your thread, its just Im really interested in this product and it would be very nice if I could use GI issue mags.

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So, military mags dont work........F%$#.....Well that sucks. Oh well, so can the military mags be modified to fit? I dont mean to hijack your thread, its just Im really interested in this product and it would be very nice if I could use GI issue mags.

 

 

I use USGI mags with my adapter. The 30 will work, I have a couple that work perfect, but most of the other ones I have are too tight. The 20 round mags require modifications to work. Some smoothing of the tight mags will probably help.

 

RalphXL

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I use USGI mags with my adapter. The 30 will work, I have a couple that work perfect, but most of the other ones I have are too tight. The 20 round mags require modifications to work. Some smoothing of the tight mags will probably help.

 

RalphXL

 

If they are tight you could always take a file to the area where there are wear marks, this will open up the adapter some.

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Yeah, Im sitting here looking at and comparing my USGI 30rd that I just took off my weapon and they dont have the lips that extend all the way across the mag. I might have to go ahead and order one and have it sent home to play with when I go on R&R! Do you take plastic???

 

Yes we do, all orders can be made on our website. Thanks

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OK, after a bit of responses here and email we have outlined changes to be implemented in the next revision. Below is the short list...........

 

1) The internal magwell will be opened up a bit more to accept AR mags that are a bit out of USGI Spec. (no external dimensional change)

2) The "M.S.A." logo will be replaced by our company shield logo.

3) Rear tab shortened in length.

4) New plating company for Mil-Spec plating and color dying.

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Why not just charge people to work on their rifle to MAKE THEM WORK with your adapter??? :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

 

 

I know I'm a complete douche.....

 

Im talking my dad into buying one soon man!!!

Edited by Bean.223
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OK, after a bit of responses here and email we have outlined changes to be implemented in the next revision. Below is the short list...........

 

1) The internal magwell will be opened up a bit more to accept AR mags that are a bit out of USGI Spec. (no external dimensional change)

2) The "M.S.A." logo will be replaced by our company shield logo.

3) Rear tab shortened in length.

4) New plating company for Mil-Spec plating and color dying.

Nathan,

 

I am buying S223 solely because of your adapter. What are the timeframes for your new adapter?

 

Thank you.

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I finally got a chance to get to the range this past Monday and try the adapter.

 

All in all, I was pleased with it operation. I ran about 60 rounds of Wolf 55 gr. through it using several different magazines. These included a 30 round Pmag, a 30 round aluminum Brownell, a 20 round aluminum MidwayUSA Stoner, and a 20 round aluminum Colt.

 

All mags functioned quite well. I have a couple of failures.....one was a type III malfunction that put me out of action for a minute. The extracted case cleared the chamber but ended up getting stuck in the receiver with a fresh round half stripped off of the magazine. I believe this malfunction occurred from my not having the magazine fully seated.

 

The biggest thing I notice, compared to my Eagle Arms EA-15, is how the magazine latches into place. On my Saiga, it is as though the magazine just barely engages the catch while on the EA-15, it really "latches" into position. I've not stuck my nose in there far enough to determine if there is something I can do locally to allow it to latch up better.

 

I found the ambi-mag release to work very well after I installed it. I had no issues with it binding up or being too stiff to easily operate. It simply worked.

 

I loaded all of the mags to 1 or 2 rounds under full capacity when I tested them.....then fired about 5~10 rounds to see how they fed. The final maga, which happened to be the Magpul, was filled and then I emptied it as fast I could shooting from the shoulder. That was where I had the type III malfunction early on. After it was cleared, no further problems.

 

By the time I was finished testing mags, the barrel was burning off oil residue left from the last cleaning session. 10 rounds fired later to verify proper operation again resulted in no problems.

 

As I said, I was pleased with the operation of the adapter and the fact that I own no magazines that will not function in it.

Edited by arizona98tj
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OK, after a bit of responses here and email we have outlined changes to be implemented in the next revision. Below is the short list...........

 

1) The internal magwell will be opened up a bit more to accept AR mags that are a bit out of USGI Spec. (no external dimensional change)

2) The "M.S.A." logo will be replaced by our company shield logo.

3) Rear tab shortened in length.

4) New plating company for Mil-Spec plating and color dying.

Nathan,

 

I am buying S223 solely because of your adapter. What are the timeframes for your new adapter?

 

Thank you.

 

I will have these going as soon as the run of Semi-Conversions are finished....... I have a few people with outstanding orders that have been patiently waiting for theirs. I would like to get them out first before they form a lench-mob and come get me....... I'd say in a week or so.

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I finally got a chance to get to the range this past Monday and try the adapter.

 

All in all, I was pleased with it operation. I ran about 60 rounds of Wolf 55 gr. through it using several different magazines. These included a 30 round Pmag, a 30 round aluminum Brownell, a 20 round aluminum MidwayUSA Stoner, and a 20 round aluminum Colt.

 

All mags functioned quite well. I have a couple of failures.....one was a type III malfunction that put me out of action for a minute. The extracted case cleared the chamber but ended up getting stuck in the receiver with a fresh round half stripped off of the magazine. I believe this malfunction occurred from my not having the magazine fully seated.

 

The biggest thing I notice, compared to my Eagle Arms EA-15, is how the magazine latches into place. On my Saiga, it is as though the magazine just barely engages the catch while on the EA-15, it really "latches" into position. I've not stuck my nose in there far enough to determine if there is something I can do locally to allow it to latch up better.

 

I found the ambi-mag release to work very well after I installed it. I had no issues with it binding up or being too stiff to easily operate. It simply worked.

 

I loaded all of the mags to 1 or 2 rounds under full capacity when I tested them.....then fired about 5~10 rounds to see how they fed. The final maga, which happened to be the Magpul, was filled and then I emptied it as fast I could shooting from the shoulder. That was where I had the type III malfunction early on. After it was cleared, no further problems.

 

By the time I was finished testing mags, the barrel was burning off oil residue left from the last cleaning session. 10 rounds fired later to verify proper operation again resulted in no problems.

 

As I said, I was pleased with the operation of the adapter and the fact that I own no magazines that will not function in it.

 

 

Thanks once again for a great write up...... I believe the mag lock up could be either spring related or the AR mag is not seating deep enough (may need another .01" milled out depth wise) I do have a few stronger springs I can send you to see if that helps with the lock engagement.

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I do not believe it is the depth as I milled mine right at .94" deep (didn't have the install instructions back when I first did mine). I just checked it and the magazine body comes quite close but does not contact the point where the milling was done.

 

Perhaps the mags need a little more break in time? They are all new and so it may just be that. I just tried each of them, empty, in the adapter and there is a difference compared to when they are loaded. It may also be that the top round of the magazine is contacting the bottom of the bolt carrier and so it pushes down on the magazine.

 

Let me run some more rounds through it and see how if I notice any change. If I don't, I'll get in touch.

 

Many thanks!

 

Stu

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Not to hijack this thread but I have a question that goes to some of the discussion relative to the aluminum mags. I was curious if anyone with the adapter installed, and using aluminum mags, also has a bullet guide installed. If so does it have any effect? Was thinking of adding one, for use of both style mags since I have a few bulgarian and galil mags which lock in (with some wobble now due to opening up for the adapter, not a complaint just an observation). I know I read the bullet guide should not be an issue but this statement was probably based on evaluation with P-Mags (Nathan?). Just curious if it helps with the aluminum mags or doesn't make a difference.

 

Thanks.

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I have 3 AR stock adapters from various manufacturers (Crapco,Mako,Ace) and the one that comes closest to the mark of actually making an AK feel like an M16 is the Mako unit but it is so cheaply made it scarcely belongs on a Kalashnikov and the only alternative is the $389 Mako telescopic folder with forged Galil type hinge and I have yet to desire one enough to spend that kind of money.

 

M4VZ_full.jpg

 

I believe the tang passes though the hinge mechanism(beside the hinge axis) without the tang being cut,the stock is an inline design that reduces muzzle rise by decreasing the recoil impingement moment angle.

 

if you made something like that and it didn't cost $400 I would buy them

Edited by SOPMOD
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