Jump to content

The gun show loophole- What do you think?


Recommended Posts

So im in the mood for a good politically charged discussion today :ded: ! I wanted to see what you think about the gun show loophole where you can buy everything in cash and never get checked or fill out any forms.

 

Here is my 2 cents. I love guns, and I want to keep what I have and get some more. I follow the law and dont mind the one page yellow sheet as a requirement at a gun shop cause I am a law abiding type person. I feel like the gun show loophole is something that is feeding the fire of gun control when you read all the stuff about mexico and the cartels getting 90 percent of the guns there(assuming thats true). Is it time for a change on the gun show loophole? I say maybe but to be honest cant commit one way or the other because it wont address the straw buyer issue so maybe it doesnt really matter. Wanted to know what other gun lovers think about the subject.

Heres a recent NY times article on the subject that got me thinking.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/15/us/15gun...rss&emc=rss

 

And dont shoot the messenger, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Edited by sacsucks
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 103
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

And dont shoot the messenger, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

 

Some people around here are happy for you to have your own opinion - as long as it's from the list pre-approved by the DNC.

 

There is no such thing as a "loophole." IMO

 

Buyers and sellers coming together to exchange legal goods is not illegal. Doing so should NOT be considered a "loophole" in the law.

 

Mexico is not getting their guns from private owners in the US.

 

I personally know of NOBODY who owns a class III firearm. Nobody, period. When you listen to the talk around other gun owners, there would be whispers of "Hey, check this bitch out."

 

I'm telling you, there is no talk like that around here.

 

If private owners don't own these things, they can't be sold to Mexico.

 

Word has it that entire police forces in Mexico have defected to the dark side with their firearms (provided by Colt via government contract).

 

Fox news said that 100,000 members of the Mexican army defected as well (many with their issued weapons).

 

That is how so many US made firearms would up in the bad guys' hands.

 

It's not private owners of illegal weapons here in the US. I'm telling you, that doesn't happen. I'm serious.

Edited by Bounce12
Link to post
Share on other sites

If I personally want to sell a handgun, or whatever gun I own, to a responsible individual that I know, family member, friend, I don't think I should have to jump through hoops. Granted this doesn't entirely cover the issue you're talking about, but same concept. I don't think it matters either way, you can close the "loop hole" as they call it, but that will do absolutely nothing to prevent criminals from buying guns. They don't go through law abiding citizens or dealers for their weapons. When I purchased my gun legally, the dealer knows who he sold it to, and the manufacturer knows that dealer sold that weapon. If I sell it to some idiot who goes out and does something with it, it's going to come back on me. Personal responsibility. I may or may not have a piece of paper with the serial number and info/signature of guy I sold it to, but if it turns out he was a criminal all along I'd probably still get screwed, and rightfully so. I've been to a few shows, and can't say I've ever been approached to buy personal weapons.

 

Need to enforce what they've already got on the books. I don't think closing the "loop hole" would be the end of the world, I just don't see the urgent need for it. Would be Government overstepping it's bounds. If I want to sell something I own, I should be able to without calling them for the okay. If I screw up royally, I will pay for it in the end. Hence a society of individuals.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no loophole. Considering that only 2% of all firearms used in violent crimes come from gun shows this is just the gun control groups attempt to strip more of our liberties away. You want to fix the "gun problem"? How about actually prosecuting those who use guns in crimes and keep them in jail once they get there instead of paroling them.

 

As for the 90% of guns flowing into Mexico are from the United States, Fox News did a report about this "myth". Fox reporters William La Jeunesse and Maxim Lott found that the actual percentage of guns flowing into Mexico from the U.S. is actually closer to 17%. Look at what these Mexican drug cartels are using; full-auto machine guns. I doubt that there is a large flow of full-auto guns going to Mexico from the United States.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Straw purchases are already against the law-enforce it and make examples of those who break it. What does a private transaction between two individuals have to do with the "gunshow loophole" other than the fact that some of them take place at gunshows and are beyond the control of the person promoting the gunshow? About the only thing a promoter can do is refuse to let private individuals have tables at the show. He can't stop them from selling a gun while at the show or outside of show.

Edited by The_Vigilante
Link to post
Share on other sites

In NY state, there is NO gun show "loophole"...

 

EVERY SINGLE firearm transaction at a gun show in NY state is supposed to have a corresponding NICS to go along with it... EVERY ONE! If you are a private seller... and want to sell to another private individual, you had better exchange info and plan to meet someplace a few miles away... because if you try to swap on the premises you are in deep shit... these private purchases/sales MUST GO THROUGH a FFL and a NICS performed... at cost of a NICS check transfer to the buyer...

 

:smoke:

Link to post
Share on other sites
In NY state, there is NO gun show "loophole"...

 

EVERY SINGLE firearm transaction at a gun show in NY state is supposed to have a corresponding NICS to go along with it... EVERY ONE! If you are a private seller... and want to sell to another private individual, you had better exchange info and plan to meet someplace a few miles away... because if you try to swap on the premises you are in deep shit... these private purchases/sales MUST GO THROUGH a FFL and a NICS performed... at cost of a NICS check transfer to the buyer...

 

:smoke:

 

 

Just look at how well that system is working at preventing guns from being used in the commission of crimes! :haha:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think all of these laws are an erosion of our rights and I comply with them under duress but for the present time I can legally buy a gun from an individual without bringing uncle sugar into my private business no different than buying a used lawnmower on craigslist.

 

We should go back to being able to order Thompson Machineguns and Maxim Silencers out of the Sears and Roebuck catalog at our own discretion and anything less is just nazified,control freak bullshit enforced by the nanny state and her cop goons.

Edited by SOPMOD
Link to post
Share on other sites
I think all of these laws are an erosion of our rights and I comply with them under duress but for the present time I can legally buy a gun from an individual without bringing uncle sugar into my private business no different than buying a used lawnmower on craigslist.

 

We should go back to being able to order Thompson Machineguns and Maxim Silencers out of the Sears and Roebuck catalog at our own discretion and anything less is just nazified,control freak bullshit enforced by the nanny state and her cop goons.

 

 

Finally! Something we agree on!

 

The Second Amendment doesn't say dick about "sporting use" or "fully automatic."

 

Plus, can't they do this in Kentucky?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agreed with it, back when I trusted our government blindly. Now that I've seen what they'll do unlawfully, I think it is best that they know as little about the population of the country as possible. Especially anything that has to do with money, guns, or choice.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I agreed with it, back when I trusted our government blindly. Now that I've seen what they'll do unlawfully, I think it is best that they know as little about the population of the country as possible. Especially anything that has to do with money, guns, or choice.

 

 

All that shit down in Nawlins (post Katrina) really opened my eyes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The so called loophole just stops private sales/transfers. Just bought a Mossberg youth 20 ga. for my nephew from a classified paper ad. He is 13, taken hunter safety and shoots regularly with family. :super: He'll use it until he outgrows it, then will use or purchase a shotgun of his choice or another family gun. So, this is what the Gun grabbers want to stop. :devil: Guess where I'm from, we haven't been infected with the "Got to have the Governments permission" mind set. :cryss: Out here guns are passed down or traded to meet family or friends needs. :haha: Few weeks ago sold a 1911 to a friend, (District Court Judge) :angel: Give up our rights, hell no. :smoke: P.S. SOPMOD brought up a point. In the 30's my grandfather and greatuncle purchase two Thompsons mail order. Used to stop night raiders who were burning neighbors farms.(Colored people and friends who farmed with them). In those days, some of the raiders were the law/officials. :smoke:

Link to post
Share on other sites

The term loophole is a very good term to try to make people look at my rights as a Virginian in a negative way.

 

It isn't a "gun show loophole" it is the law, there are sometimes private sellers at our shows which you can purchase firearms through. You could also come to my house and purchase a rifle from me or I could purchase a rifle from you.

 

The fact is that if you have a weapon registered to you in NICS and you sell it to "some guy" you're kind of putting yourself at a bit of risk. If that gun is used in a crime, the Sheriff is going to come to your house and ask you some questions, if you have some connections to that person you may find yourself in some trouble. When I do a person-to-person sale I write up a basic bill of sale with my information and the buyer's information; I also only sell to people I know.

 

When I carry weapons around the shows, I get more inquiries from dealers than I do from the attendees.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, question. Joe Felon walks into a gun show. Walks up to a private seller, has a friendly conversation, negotiates a deal and buys a gun off the guy. Joe Felon flashes his drivers license to show he lives in state. The two make a sale and part ways. You don't see anything wrong with that?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason why so many government people want to close the right of private party sales is twofold:

 

First, if a parent passes on firearms to a child or heir, the government gets to stick their hand out and make money by closing private party sales that would otherwise not be taxed as inheritance.

 

Second, it freezes collections so that you have to, in effect, register every firearm you own with the government. It is no different than full registration like HR41 other than it stays at the dealer until the ATF needs them or the dealer goes out of business.

 

The majority of sellers at gunshows are FFL dealers and cannot legally sell without doing paperwork. You can just as easily advertise in the newspaper and sell privately. The demonization of private sales as "gunshow loophole" insinuates that you are doing something that would otherwise be illegal. It is just like you selling your couch, but calling it the "flea market loophole".

 

If you are a dumbass and sell your handgun to a known felon, you[/b just committed a crime. If you sell it to a "seemingly legit" dude that uses it in a crime, the ATF will see who filled out the original 4473 and knock on your door as suspect 1 in the crime. You have to prove that you sold it and to whom. The fact that you don't have it anymore is not proof, because it is just as likely that [u]you[/u] left it at the scene of the crime and the cops recovered it.

 

60 Minutes has an agenda to blame gun owners for what happened at Virginia Tech. The only person responsible is the butt-pirate pulling the trigger. If anyone else is to blame then I would say it is the media that showed the home-video of that fucker and fulfilled his last murderous wish! He did the whole thing to get his mug in your living rooms. He got his wish to be famous and through the media blitz likely inspired countless others to do similar acts of horror so they can finally be recognized and understood. Yet 60 Minutes will never be willing to point at themselves as the true culprits.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is private citizens are prohibited from accessing the registries required for checking firearms transactions, even prior to the background check system being instituted. As a consequence, it was decided to leave the lack of background check in place post-crime-bill for private citizens.

 

Now alot of anti-gun folk want to fix the problem by preventing private sales, when the logical solution would be providing the background systems open to citizens and perhaps enumerating the particular liabilities involved with a private sale, so that it is left to the discretion of the individual. Personally, everything I've sold privately has been to good acquaintances, or in the case of a stranger I record a DL/other ID# and name and do a private background check, then remove it from memory in good conscience.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Ok, question. Joe Felon walks into a gun show. Walks up to a private seller, has a friendly conversation, negotiates a deal and buys a gun off the guy. Joe Felon flashes his drivers license to show he lives in state. The two make a sale and part ways. You don't see anything wrong with that?

 

I met someone who is a felon who purchased a firearm in Idaho person to person, do you know what he's going to do with it? He's going to keep it under his bed in case someone tries to break into his house and kill him. Do I think he should have purchased it? It isn't really any of my business. Should I turn him in? No, that's the government's job; if he's caught doing a crime with the firearm, that's his ass.

 

You can ask "what if" for thousands of scenarios, the fact is intent. What if felon purchased a car? Oh no, he's definitely going to use it to smuggle drugs or run people over or kidnap children or drive to work.

 

I have a felon staying at my house right now, he was found guilty of Illegal use of Telco or something to that effect, back in the 80's, I have over a dozen firearms, one with in 10-feet of his bed. Guess what... he's not going to go crazy and start shooting people, but wait he's a felon, so he must be a bad person, right? No, he's a good Conservative Christian Republican, who doesn't give a shit about what you do as long as you don't mess with his way of life. Should he be able to buy a firearm? Sure he's not going to use it for violent crime, he'd use it for making expensive holes in targets and possibly self defense.

 

Let's say Joe New Jersey walks into a gun show and buys a firearm which is illegal in his state. Which are most of them, right? Who's responsibility is it to follow the laws? Do you need the government to explain all of your responsibilities?

 

If you don't like our laws, too fucking bad. The residents of your state have already thrown away most of their 2A rights. Your opinions of our laws are pretty much meaningless to me.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So, if I sell cotton candy to a person who doesn't state they are diabetic and die I'm responsible. Or I sell a used Chevy to a person, pays cash, happens to have multiple DUIs/ no liscense. (NO LAW REQUIRES I CHECK THEIR DRIVING RECORD). Gets drunk a week latter and drives through a crosswalk killing 10 kids. Do get tired of the nanny state mentality. How about BARS or BULLETS for criminals. Leave my life alone. :smoke:

Link to post
Share on other sites

i like discussions too, you can learn alot about laws and political rhetoric.

 

 

as many people have chimed in, "there is NO loophole". that's right, a private sale is a private sale, whether it takes place in a living room, a parking lot,

a bathroom, or inside a gun show.

 

the only time paperwork and background is needed is when a licensed dealer is selling from his/her inventory (gun from a dealer's private collection would be a private sale)

 

a private sale is a private sale and the BATF doesn't require non-dealers to keep records...technically, you don't even have to ask if the buyer is a felon, you just can't sell it if you KNOW they aren't allowed to own a firearm.

 

so, legally, it is much easier to sell a gun than it is to sell a car.

 

 

 

 

 

but that's still not a loophole. it's the way the law has ALWAYS been.

 

until the early 80's, FFL's (federally licensed dealers) were not allowed to set up shop at gun shows. gun shows were exclusively for private sales

 

 

 

answer: there is no loophole. private sellers can sell/trade to whomever they want with no records or background checks. FFL dealers MUST keep records and perform checks, because that's what's required of them...

 

 

now, should it be harder to sell a car than to sell a gun? personally, i think the car should be easier to sell, but i'm at a loss of how to the authorities would enforce that. for your own protection (if the gun was purchased under your name), you can always go down to a dealer and to a "transfer" from you to the buyer. that would leave a paper trail showing that you are no longer owner of the gun, and the transfer would include a background check to make sure the buyer is able to own a gun. but that's all voluntary stuff for your own protection....

 

...could something like that be federally required? could it be required without having a registration database? say the phrase "gun registration database" and most gun owners will freak out because they believe confiscation is next...and they may be right...

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am 100% pro gun rights, but I do have to wonder how many people that legally cannot own a gun go to gun shows and buy FTF at them so there is no paper trail? I would have to assume that it does happen.

 

Of course it also happens out of the back of car trunks in dark alleys too, so it is not a simple problem with a simple solution.

Link to post
Share on other sites
So, if I sell cotton candy to a person who doesn't state they are diabetic and die I'm responsible. Or I sell a used Chevy to a person, pays cash, happens to have multiple DUIs/ no liscense. (NO LAW REQUIRES I CHECK THEIR DRIVING RECORD). Gets drunk a week latter and drives through a crosswalk killing 10 kids. Do get tired of the nanny state mentality. How about BARS or BULLETS for criminals. Leave my life alone. :smoke:

 

i don't know about kansas, but in texas, the private seller is "supposedly required" to go down to the tax office to transfer the title over to the private buyer. but that isn't enforced at all.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Ok, question. Joe Felon walks into a gun show. Walks up to a private seller, has a friendly conversation, negotiates a deal and buys a gun off the guy. Joe Felon flashes his drivers license to show he lives in state. The two make a sale and part ways. You don't see anything wrong with that?

 

Well, the felon has committed another crime. Big surprise there. The seller has done nothing wrong as far as federal laws.

 

The felon would also be committing a crime by buying ammo as far as i know, but you wouldn't hold a gunshop or Walmart responsible if there is no law making them run a background check.

 

Bottom line is that you can't hold honest citizens responsible for criminals actions. If they want a weapon, they will find one. More than likely they will find a stolen one anyway because they are cheaper and they don't care that its stolen because they are a criminal.

 

If gun control actually took hold here in the USA and worked all that would happen is criminals would start getting guns imported like they do drugs. You would see convoys of full auto AK47s pouring across the border from mexico along with cases of Mosin Nagants and such.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Ok, question. Joe Felon walks into a gun show. Walks up to a private seller, has a friendly conversation, negotiates a deal and buys a gun off the guy. Joe Felon flashes his drivers license to show he lives in state. The two make a sale and part ways. You don't see anything wrong with that?

 

Well, the felon has committed another crime. Big surprise there. The seller has done nothing wrong as far as federal laws.

 

The felon would also be committing a crime by buying ammo as far as i know, but you wouldn't hold a gunshop or Walmart responsible if there is no law making them run a background check.

 

Bottom line is that you can't hold honest citizens responsible for criminals actions. If they want a weapon, they will find one. More than likely they will find a stolen one anyway because they are cheaper and they don't care that its stolen because they are a criminal.

 

i could be wrong, but a while back i looked up the BATF rules on private sales...i think it said in-state sales don't need any paper work, and out of state (citizen of another state) need a FFL to perform a transfer.

 

yes, Joe Felon just re-felonized himself by purchasing a gun.

yes, the seller felonized himself once he sold the gun to an out of state citizen (who just happens to be a felon)

 

correct me if i'm wrong. thanks.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Ok, question. Joe Felon walks into a gun show. Walks up to a private seller, has a friendly conversation, negotiates a deal and buys a gun off the guy. Joe Felon flashes his drivers license to show he lives in state. The two make a sale and part ways. You don't see anything wrong with that?

 

Well, the felon has committed another crime. Big surprise there. The seller has done nothing wrong as far as federal laws.

 

The felon would also be committing a crime by buying ammo as far as i know, but you wouldn't hold a gunshop or Walmart responsible if there is no law making them run a background check.

 

Bottom line is that you can't hold honest citizens responsible for criminals actions. If they want a weapon, they will find one. More than likely they will find a stolen one anyway because they are cheaper and they don't care that its stolen because they are a criminal.

 

i could be wrong, but a while back i looked up the BATF rules on private sales...i think it said in-state sales don't need any paper work, and out of state (citizen of another state) need a FFL to perform a transfer.

 

yes, Joe Felon just re-felonized himself by purchasing a gun.

yes, the seller felonized himself once he sold the gun to an out of state citizen (who just happens to be a felon)

 

correct me if i'm wrong. thanks.

whoops, i thought the quote said "out of state license"

 

in that case, legally, the seller is in the clear since it was in-state and he had no knowledge Joe Felon was a felon

Edited by Modiano
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...