The 6.8mm

[Bounce12 407]

In the ongoing debate over which caliber, which grain weight, which twist rate and which barrel length works best for which job, there always seems to be another data point.

 

 

The 6.8s seem pricey to me and the ammo is about $1 a round. They have more energy down range than an AR-15, but I think if I needed that I might just pick up my .308.

 

Has anyone gone the 6.8 route? What do you think of it?

[SOPMOD 254]

I love the 6.8 in theory,I love the power,compact envelope and apparent wound ballistics but the M16 already breaks extractors,extractor pins,clogs or even melts gas tubes and has gas port erosion with 223 so why would they choose that platform to add yet more pressure,gas volume,etc to?

 

Also the cost and availability of the ammunition sounds like a logistics bottleneck and a cost nightmare to me.

 

In IRL I run a compact 308 the same way I would have run a 6.8SPC and unless I felt like buying a lifetime supply of 6.8SPC ammo and they introduced a SIG55x,FN/SCAR or even a Kalashnikov in that caliber I don't see spending $25,000 to basically shave 3.5lbs off of my total fighting load vs a similar 308 rifle and magazines.

 

I have only shot about 200rds out of a 6.8SPC M4 conversion(mostly because it was too expensive and my buddy only had 500rds)

Edited April 19, 2009 by SOPMOD

[Bounce12 407]

I have only shot about 200rds out of a 6.8SPC M4 conversion(mostly because it was too expensive and my buddy only had 500rds)

 

 

You have one hell of a buddy. He has 500 rounds of buck a round ammo and he lets you shoot 200 of 'em?

 

Now THAT is a "friend!"

 

LOL

 

My thought process on the 6.8 is pretty much in line with yours.

 

There are a bunch of them for sale on gunbroker.

Edited April 19, 2009 by Bounce12

[superA 289]

I guess if you felt you were going to engage in combat past 200 yards or so it offers more than 7.62x39 but for 99.9999% of us that's just not going to happen. I can see why the military would want an AR size round with a flat trajectory and more punch than the 5.56x45. I can also understand it's merits if you want to hunt with your AR. To much money for me though. Hell I don't think I would even try and hunt past 100 yards or so, I'm not a good enough shot yet.

[SOPMOD 254]

I have only shot about 200rds out of a 6.8SPC M4 conversion(mostly because it was too expensive and my buddy only had 500rds)

 

 

You have one hell of a buddy. He has 500 rounds of buck a round ammo and he lets you shoot 200 of 'em?

 

Now THAT is a "friend!"

 

LOL

 

My thought process on the 6.8 is pretty much in line with yours.

 

There are a bunch of them for sale on gunbroker.

 

 

I help him put all of his guns together and zero all of his scopes for him.I was actually dialing in his Meopta initially and he told me to shoot as much as I wanted to

[nalioth 405]

Stirring the 'new ammo design' pot last year:

 

Move it, 6.5 Grendel. step aside, 6.8 SPC. Introducing the 6.5 MPC - Saiga-12.com

 

In theory, I'd rather have the 6.5 MPC, as all you need to do is change the barrel for it to work with any .223 rifle.

 

IOW, no new magazines needed, nor bolt.

[Krom 36]

My 2cents, this is just another 'high tech' attempt to 'westernize' the best itermediate round ever created 7.62x39.... The 6.8 is only a little better than the 7.62x39, and deffinately does not warrent the extra cost. This is especially true since 90% of our guys in the sandbox are using 16" M-4s/m249s, and the other 10% are using .308 anyways.

 

The US needs to get off it's high horse weapons wise, the russians had an excellent round and an excellent weapon with the AK. It's cheaper and very effective. It just makes me angry that the AK represents commies and terrorists, and it's all cause the west is too proud to make and imploy something similar. (don't shit where you eat DUH) We should adopt something like the sig 556 but in 7.62x39 instead as our military standard. Plus there is an advantage in being able to scrouge ammo from your enemy. Think how great it'd be for our economy too, having serval US owned and opperated ammo factories churnin out NATO spec steel 762x39 for us and the military. BTW we all know that steel casings are more green.

Edited April 19, 2009 by Krom

[Kwicko 8]

My 2cents, this is just another 'high tech' attempt to 'westernize' the best itermediate round ever created 7.62x39.... The 6.8 is only a little better than the 7.62x39, and deffinately does not warrent the extra cost. This is especially true since 90% of our guys in the sandbox are using 16" M-4s/m249s, and the other 10% are using .308 anyways.

 

The US needs to get off it's high horse weapons wise, the russians had an excellent round and an excellent weapon with the AK. It's cheaper and very effective. It just makes me angry that the AK represents commies and terrorists, and it's all cause the west is too proud to make and imploy something similar. (don't shit where you eat DUH) We should adopt something like the sig 556 but in 7.62x39 instead as our military standard. Plus there is an advantage in being able to scrouge ammo from your enemy. Think how great it'd be for our economy too, having serval US owned and opperated ammo factories churnin out NATO spec steel 762x39 for us and the military. BTW we all know that steel casings are more green.

 

 

I'm inclined to agree. It's as if we CAN'T do 7.62x39 in this country because it would be some kind of admission that the commies did something better. Hell, there are SOME things Russians do really well at. Good, cheap ammo and guns and good vodka come to mind!

[Azrial 1,091]

When firearm prices drop, as they soon will, I am thinking of buying a MSAR AUG in 6.8!

[Folkien 0]

I wish .300/221 (Fireball/Whisper) could find some true market demand so someone would start manufacturing the stuff (corbon doesn't count). Outside of a few accuracy problems, and the complicated/costly nature of the related weapons, the round could put up some serious competition for a 21st century intermediate/multipurpose cartridge.

[voonman 133]

I wish it was more popular and cheaper than the .223 ..It is proven to be more effective with energy and balistics vs the .223 and more accurate at long ranges than the 7.62x39 .>Also you can hunt with it in your local state park instead of the regulated .223 .. Hopefully soon they will start to make more AR15 type rifles with this caliber at a lower cost..I wish the military would replace the .223 with the 6.8mm..Check the youtube video below and tell me what you think..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zMpN_-pcas

[SOPMOD 254]

I wish .300/221 (Fireball/Whisper) could find some true market demand so someone would start manufacturing the stuff (corbon doesn't count). Outside of a few accuracy problems, and the complicated/costly nature of the related weapons, the round could put up some serious competition for a 21st century intermediate/multipurpose cartridge.

 

Accuracy problems come from improperly matched twist rates and bullet weights.Run heavy bullets and tight twist like it was designed for and 300 Whisper is plenty accurate..

[Kwicko 8]

When firearm prices drop, as they soon will, I am thinking of buying a MSAR AUG in 6.8!

 

Oh, how I hope you are correct!

 

See my Gun Show Report from Austin to see why.

 

Oh, and one Saiga that I left out - an unmodified 7.62x39, new in box, for $1450. ONE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED AND FIFTY FREAKING BUCKS FOR A STANDARD BONE-STOCK SAIGA!!! I about shat myself. I wanted to offer to sell the guy mine for a mere $725, since he'd be able to double his money on it.

 

I did see a few Arsenal Saigas, and they do look very sweet and well built. There were going in the $1100-1300 range.

 

All in all, it was very depressing.

 

My theory on stuff like that $1450 Saiga is that the guy puts it out there, not really wanting to sell it, but figuring if someone is actually stupid enough to pay that much, he'll be glad to take their money, and everything else he sells is pure gravy at that point. I've taken the same attitude when people come knocking on my door to ask if either of my Honda CRXs are for sale. "Sure they are - five grand each!" Hey, if they're stupid enough to pay that, I'll happily sell 'em and buy more!

[dancapostagno 0]

Stirring the 'new ammo design' pot last year:

 

Move it, 6.5 Grendel. step aside, 6.8 SPC. Introducing the 6.5 MPC - Saiga-12.com

 

In theory, I'd rather have the 6.5 MPC, as all you need to do is change the barrel for it to work with any .223 rifle.

 

IOW, no new magazines needed, nor bolt.

 

+1

both are very promising rounds IMO, and I'm not usually one to bash the 5.56 family either, which works for a reason. I think the Grendel is extremely competent & versatile and the MPC is a brilliant idea for a stepping stone between the two rounds to cannibalize the infrastructure we currently have. My "when the prices go down and I'm not eating my shoes for sustenance" idea for a future purchase/conversion would be in either or both of those. However, the idea for using 7.62x39 is a good idea, perhaps too mature to have been considered until recently. When it comes to redefining NATO and fighting unconventional wars, it seems like it would be a good idea to consider, if only even in a small part. It would appear there are multiple good options available, but the reason not much in the way of action has been taken on them so far is because we are just now beginning to consider defining what the parameters are that would necessitate such a move. There's alot of forethought involved, and when it comes to giant, multinational fighting forces involved in one of a variety of potential future conflicts, one tends to want to avoid making the wrong prediction.

 

but that's my $0.02CAD

[Paladin 37]

Well I jumped in on the 6.5 Grendel side. I have a Saiga that I rebarreled in 6.5G. I choose the 6.5 because it has almost as good ballistics at short range as the 6.8spc and much better at long range. In either case, it is better than the 5.56.

 

At the "05 shot show Wolf said that they were coming out with a 110gr. steel cased Grendel so I thought I'd be able to put back a few thousand rounds and call it good. Well, they never produced it. I think they have their hands full cranking out the x39.

 

Now that it's a few years later, and a new world , I have a very cool rifle I don't shoot.

[nalioth 405]

Well I jumped in on the 6.5 Grendel side. I have a Saiga that I rebarreled in 6.5G. I choose the 6.5 because it has almost as good ballistics at short range as the 6.8spc and much better at long range. In either case, it is better than the 5.56.

 

At the "05 shot show Wolf said that they were coming out with a 110gr. steel cased Grendel so I thought I'd be able to put back a few thousand rounds and call it good. Well, they never produced it. I think they have their hands full cranking out the x39.

 

Now that it's a few years later, and a new world , I have a very cool rifle I don't shoot.

I guess it's time to start reloading, eh?

[superA 289]

Well I jumped in on the 6.5 Grendel side. I have a Saiga that I rebarreled in 6.5G. I choose the 6.5 because it has almost as good ballistics at short range as the 6.8spc and much better at long range. In either case, it is better than the 5.56.

 

At the "05 shot show Wolf said that they were coming out with a 110gr. steel cased Grendel so I thought I'd be able to put back a few thousand rounds and call it good. Well, they never produced it. I think they have their hands full cranking out the x39.

 

Now that it's a few years later, and a new world , I have a very cool rifle I don't shoot.

 

 

 

 

At the time I was hating you for having the first AK Grendel I had heard of.....I also thought the Steel cased would be out by now. There is some info at the Grendel forum about turning 7.62x39 brass into Grendel brass since Grendel brass has gotten way out of hand as far as pricing goes.

[superA 289]

Got me wondering about a 6.5 mpc conversion from the Saiga .223 with the AR mag adapter.

[nalioth 405]

Got me wondering about a 6.5 mpc conversion from the Saiga .223 with the AR mag adapter.

The 6.5 MPC will fit any .223 magazine.

[Azrial 1,091]

When firearm prices drop, as they soon will, I am thinking of buying a MSAR AUG in 6.8!

 

Oh, how I hope you are correct!

 

See my Gun Show Report from Austin to see why.

 

Oh, and one Saiga that I left out - an unmodified 7.62x39, new in box, for $1450. ONE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED AND FIFTY FREAKING BUCKS FOR A STANDARD BONE-STOCK SAIGA!!! I about shat myself. I wanted to offer to sell the guy mine for a mere $725, since he'd be able to double his money on it....

Unless some mavericks in the Congress keep pushing the AWB the prices will drop. A lot of dealers have inventory now that they paid too much for, they of course do not want to go into the hole on these. Also Yuppies have invaded and actively become interested in firearms as a hobby. They will throw too much money at every problem, and this will slow the price drop. Of course greed is also a factor. And then you have the price of steel, but still, mark my words, the prices will drop.

[Bounce12 407]

Unless some mavericks in the Congress keep pushing the AWB the prices will drop. A lot of dealers have inventory now that they paid too much for, they of course do not want to go into the hole on these. Also Yuppies have invaded and actively become interested in firearms as a hobby. They will throw too much money at every problem, and this will slow the price drop. Of course greed is also a factor. And then you have the price of steel, but still, mark my words, the prices will drop.

 

 

Azrial, while I agree with you that prices will drop on the basis of "fear" leaving the market, we only have 18 months to two years before all this money they're printing starts to circulate.

 

Once that happens, INFLATION will take off and prices will start to go up on everything.

 

If we see prices drop, consider it a moment of opportunity and strike, I wouldn't dilly-dally around longer than that waiting for prices to go down even farther.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Bounce12

[Vultite 57]

6.8 SPC is a great round, accurate and so reliable its boring. The only downside to the round is price/availability, but that is an issue with most ammo since there is some sorta bullshit shortage for bullshit reasons.

[superA 289]

Got me wondering about a 6.5 mpc conversion from the Saiga .223 with the AR mag adapter.

The 6.5 MPC will fit any .223 magazine.

 

 

 

Yeah I had thought so. So basically a different barrel would be all that's needed correct?

[nalioth 405]

Got me wondering about a 6.5 mpc conversion from the Saiga .223 with the AR mag adapter.

The 6.5 MPC will fit any .223 magazine.

 

 

 

Yeah I had thought so. So basically a different barrel would be all that's needed correct?

Yes.

 

Read the linked thread and associated articles, the 6.5 MPC is quite an interesting cartridge.

Edited April 20, 2009 by nalioth

[dancapostagno 0]

Got me wondering about a 6.5 mpc conversion from the Saiga .223 with the AR mag adapter.

The 6.5 MPC will fit any .223 magazine.

 

 

 

Yeah I had thought so. So basically a different barrel would be all that's needed correct?

 

from what I understand of it, yes.

[vbrtrmn 167]

It seems like every new issue of American Rifleman I get, with my NRA membership, has some kind of new and improved round on the cover. I'm thinking... GREAT another round which costs a buck a pop or more, who the hell cares?!? It almost seems like the old proprietary computer days, where manufacturers would put out things which would only work with their systems, so consumers would essentially be "locked in".

 

If you're the kind of guy who has a few grand to drop on a bolt rifle and can afford to buy ammo at a dollar a round OR you're a sponsored professional shooter, these rounds are great. For the rest of us working schmucks, honestly why bother? I'd love to get a rifle in .338 Lapua and shoot it all day long, I just don't want to drop a pay check on a day at the range

[superA 289]

You could reload the 6.5 MPC pretty cheap though.

[Paladin 37]

Well I jumped in on the 6.5 Grendel side. I have a Saiga that I rebarreled in 6.5G. I choose the 6.5 because it has almost as good ballistics at short range as the 6.8spc and much better at long range. In either case, it is better than the 5.56.

 

At the "05 shot show Wolf said that they were coming out with a 110gr. steel cased Grendel so I thought I'd be able to put back a few thousand rounds and call it good. Well, they never produced it. I think they have their hands full cranking out the x39.

 

Now that it's a few years later, and a new world , I have a very cool rifle I don't shoot.

I guess it's time to start reloading, eh?

 

Yea, I thought about that. Brass is expensive, although you do get quite a few loadings out of Lapua.

Another issue is that the 6.8spc seems to be winning the availability war. They have more loadings out now and AA seems to be still tight assed about licensing.

 

With ammo prices way up, and I don't think they will ever go back down significantly I'm thinking that I may go back to my two caliber system of x39 for goto and .308 for DM. I may sell or trade my AK 6.5G.

[Paladin 37]

Well I jumped in on the 6.5 Grendel side. I have a Saiga that I rebarreled in 6.5G. I choose the 6.5 because it has almost as good ballistics at short range as the 6.8spc and much better at long range. In either case, it is better than the 5.56.

 

At the "05 shot show Wolf said that they were coming out with a 110gr. steel cased Grendel so I thought I'd be able to put back a few thousand rounds and call it good. Well, they never produced it. I think they have their hands full cranking out the x39.

 

Now that it's a few years later, and a new world , I have a very cool rifle I don't shoot.

 

 

 

 

At the time I was hating you for having the first AK Grendel I had heard of.....I also thought the Steel cased would be out by now. There is some info at the Grendel forum about turning 7.62x39 brass into Grendel brass since Grendel brass has gotten way out of hand as far as pricing goes.

 

 

I read about fireforming the brass, but wow, alot of time and effort to do.

[Twinsen 86]

My 2cents, this is just another 'high tech' attempt to 'westernize' the best itermediate round ever created 7.62x39.... The 6.8 is only a little better than the 7.62x39, and deffinately does not warrent the extra cost. This is especially true since 90% of our guys in the sandbox are using 16" M-4s/m249s, and the other 10% are using .308 anyways.

 

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7.62x39 beats every round ever made for <300 yard work. Period. I know there are flatter shooting rounds, higher velocity rounds, lower recoiling rounds, etc, but 7.62x39 rapes them all, overall. Nothing beats building materials better that is lower recoiling, nothing is more reliable. Everybody else should just go home, because 7.62x39 won 60 years ago.

 

And I'd say 9x39mm seems like it is the best special application round ever made as well. Love that Russky cartridge design. .30 whisper can eat its heart out. It is balls in comparison.