Compliance with a foreign mag

[cbrgator 0]

If I want to continue to use foreign magazines with the Saiga 12, what other parts can I replace to knock my total down to 10. Also, I have a 19" threaded barrel Saiga 12. Exactly how many foreign parts must be replaced?

[nalioth 405]

If I want to continue to use foreign magazines with the Saiga 12, what other parts can I replace to knock my total down to 10. Also, I have a 19" threaded barrel Saiga 12. Exactly how many foreign parts must be replaced?

Which 'foreign magazines' are you planning on using?

 

If you're using the factory "sporting" magazines, you have no worries.

 

 

If you've ordered some 8 or 10 rounders from Russia, you'll need to pick 4 parts off the list to change out.

 

Please note: adding a pistol grip will take you to 15 countable parts.

 

BTW, you need one US part on it now, if you're using US made "non sporting" magazines.

Edited April 20, 2009 by nalioth

[cbrgator 0]

If I want to continue to use foreign magazines with the Saiga 12, what other parts can I replace to knock my total down to 10. Also, I have a 19" threaded barrel Saiga 12. Exactly how many foreign parts must be replaced?

Which 'foreign magazines' are you planning on using?

 

If you're using the factory "sporting" magazines, you have no worries.

 

 

If you've ordered some 8 or 10 rounders from Russia, you'll need to pick 4 parts off the list to change out.

 

Please note: adding a pistol grip will take you to 15 countable parts.

 

BTW, you need one US part on it now, if you're using US made "non sporting" magazines.

 

Right now it is in its stock configuration. I've looked around and the information is confusing to me. I want to know which parts are replaceable if I intend to use a foreign mag but have a pistol grip and exactly how many need replacing.

 

Does it matter how many countable parts there are? Isn't the law simply at most 10 foreign parts? Does it matter if there are 14 or 15 countable parts? I'm curious because I don't know.

[nalioth 405]

Right now it is in its stock configuration. I've looked around and the information is confusing to me. I want to know which parts are replaceable if I intend to use a foreign mag but have a pistol grip and exactly how many need replacing.

 

Does it matter how many countable parts there are? Isn't the law simply at most 10 foreign parts? Does it matter if there are 14 or 15 countable parts? I'm curious because I don't know.

Your "countable parts" is made up of foreign and domestic parts.

 

On a factory Saiga shotty with thread protector, you have 14 countable parts, all of foreign origin.

[scatter shot 0]

Hey guys, I hate for my first post to be on a subject that has been beat to death (922r compliance) but alot of the threads are sort of old

 

Hopefully, you guys can set me straight. This is what I seem to be able to gather from reading, please correct me if I am wrong

 

1- my Saiga in .223 straight out of the box with the factory 10 round clip is LEGAL

 

2- If i put a Tapco 6 position stock on it and-

a- use the factory clip I am ILLEGAL

b- use a U.S.A. made 30 round clip I am LEGAL

 

 

I may move the FCG later but will be leaving as it is for now.

[nalioth 405]

Hey guys, I hate for my first post to be on a subject that has been beat to death (922r compliance) but alot of the threads are sort of old

. . but the laws haven't changed. Just because you've found an "old" edition of Websters dictionary, doesn't mean the defininitions have all been changed.

Hopefully, you guys can set me straight. This is what I seem to be able to gather from reading, please correct me if I am wrong

 

1- my Saiga in .223 straight out of the box with the factory 10 round clip is LEGAL

 

2- If i put a Tapco 6 position stock on it and-

a- use the factory clip I am ILLEGAL

b- use a U.S.A. made 30 round clip I am LEGAL

 

 

I may move the FCG later but will be leaving as it is for now.

10 round magazines are considered "sporting", so if you only add the stock and only use the factory mags, you're fine.

 

If you modify the rifle to accept "non sporting" (or military surplus) magazines, you have to comply with 922r.

[scatter shot 0]

Maybe I need to further clarify-

 

 

 

 

2- If i put a Tapco 6 position stock WITH A PISTOL GRIP on it and-

a- use the factory clip I am ILLEGAL YES OR NO?

b- use a U.S.A. made 30 round clip I am LEGAL YES OR NO?

[nalioth 405]

Maybe I need to further clarify-

 

 

 

 

2- If i put a Tapco 6 position stock WITH A PISTOL GRIP on it and-

a- use the factory clip I am ILLEGAL YES OR NO?

b- use a U.S.A. made 30 round clip I am LEGAL YES OR NO?

 

 

A is for Apple.

 

B is for Bear.

 

C is for Cookie.

 

 

Read the laws yourself. IANAL, and don't get paid to spoon feed people. What if I LIED and you got in trouble?

 

You asked and I've answered your every question. I am sorry if you only understand baby talk.

[scatter shot 0]

Well, for starters, I don't beleive that you have actually answered what I asked. All that you have done is spew additional nonsense that continues to confuse the situation. For example, you said-

 

". . but the laws haven't changed."

 

I reckon I've read enough threads on this forum that go back several years where changes in the law have been discussed on numerous occasions. I have read a fair number of posts by what appears to be pretty knowledgable posters in which they reference changes in the law and some of the resulting confusion. In fact several senior posters have mentioned that even some of the ATF guys are not exactly sure of some of the laws.

 

You said-

 

"Just because you've found an "old" edition of Websters dictionary, doesn't mean the defininitions have all been changed."

 

By your very own statement, the implication is that some of the definitions have been changed. So I reckon it would possible that not ALL of the Assault Weapon Law(s) have been changed but apparently a few have.

 

 

then you said-

 

"If you modify the rifle to accept "non sporting" (or military surplus) magazines, you have to comply with 922r"

 

I did not say a dang thing about modifying the rifle to accept military surplus mags. The 30 round mags I'm using and the rifle do not require any modification. They are "off the shelf" type mags manufactered right here in the US of A. I took the mags out of the wrapper and inserted them straight into the weapon with no modifications whatsoever.

 

I asked my questions specifically because of the info that I ran across betweeen the older posts and the newer posts. Specifically, I read that taking a stock Saiga .223 with the factory mag (legal) and changing the sporter stock for a Tapco 6 position with a pistol grip would make it illegal based on the foreign parts count if I use the factory mag.

I found an Excel spread sheet that seemed to confirm that but when I swapped the factory mag (10 round) out for a USA made 30 round mag it brought the parts count down (by 3) and made it a compliant weapon. I was hoping to be able to confirm this info therefore I asked-

 

If i put a Tapco 6 position stock WITH A PISTOL GRIP on it and-

a- use the factory clip I am ILLEGAL. YES OR NO?

b- use a U.S.A. made 30 round clip I am LEGAL. YES OR NO?

 

so you said-

 

"You asked and I've answered your every question."

 

 

You did not answer either of these questions in baby talk, big boy talk, swahili or any other language that I am familiar with.

 

 

And finally, you said-

 

"What if I LIED and you got in trouble?"

 

If that's how you get your giggles tell all the lies that you want. If you don't want to answer a noob's question in a straight forward manner then don't. Just don't piss on my back and tell me it's raining.

[scatter shot 0]

[nalioth 405]

Bottom line: If you use magazines of 11 round capacity or more in your Saiga rifle, you must comply with 922r.

 

It doesn't make a flip if you've got a Goodyear blimp gondola hanging off of it.

 

It's that simple.

[scatter shot 0]

"Bottom line: If you use magazines of 11 round capacity or more in your Saiga rifle, you must comply with 922r"

 

I can agree with that.

 

"It doesn't make a flip if you've got a Goodyear blimp gondola hanging off of it."

 

More nonsense. Trying to confuse the issue?

 

"It's that simple. "

 

Apparently not. If it was that simple there would not be so many threads regards to 922r compliance.

 

 

Nalioth,

I'm not trying to get into or keep running a a pizzing contest with ya. I appreciate your azzistance.

[vbrtrmn 167]

Read my explanation of 922r in my sig, see if it clears anything up for you.

[nalioth 405]

"Bottom line: If you use magazines of 11 round capacity or more in your Saiga rifle, you must comply with 922r"

 

I can agree with that.

 

"It doesn't make a flip if you've got a Goodyear blimp gondola hanging off of it."

 

More nonsense. Trying to confuse the issue?

 

"It's that simple. "

 

Apparently not. If it was that simple there would not be so many threads regards to 922r compliance.

Nonsense? Allow me to explain:

A bayonet lug will not trigger 922r.

A muzzle device will not trigger 922r.

A pistol grip will not trigger 922r.

A folding stock will not trigger 922r.

A grenade launcher will not trigger 922r.

 

Foreign rifles and shotguns are sold here each day with any or all of these features, and do not have to comply with 922r, because they are sold with 4 round mags (shotguns) and 10 round mags (rifles).

 

If and when you insert a magazine over 11 rounds capacity in your Saiga rifle, THEN, 922r kicks in, and you don't have to have ANY of the listed features above on your rifle.

 

 

. . . and it is simple. Too many folks just can't get around the "countable parts by federal law concept" and want to count optics, rivets, screws bipods and other things into the mix.

Edited April 21, 2009 by nalioth

[scatter shot 0]

Nalioth said-

 

"A bayonet lug will not trigger 922r.

A muzzle device will not trigger 922r.

A pistol grip will not trigger 922r.

A folding stock will not trigger 922r.

A grenade launcher will not trigger 92

 

If and when you insert a magazine over 11 rounds capacity in your Saiga rifle, THEN, 922r kicks in, and you don't have to have ANY of the listed features above on your rifle. "

 

 

 

I think the light just turned on! Thanks for your patience. There is definately some conflicting info going on in some other threads and that is why I was trying to get it clear in my head. It just did not make sense to me that a T6 stock and a factory 10 round mag would be illegal but a T6 stock and a USA 30 round mag would be legal.

The way the other folks are skinning the cat is based on parts count only, verses you not even skinning the cat until the cat has +10 round mag shoved up it's pooper.

 

Peace be with ya bro'

[SELFDEFENSE 2]

So an analog for a threaded Saiga 12 shotty could be:

Want to use a US mag over 5 rounds which kicks in 922r compliance requirements.

Starting with 14 Russian parts, the US mag reduces Russian count by 3 leaving 11 Russian parts.

Need to remove 1 more Russian, and do so by replacing the thread protector with US flash hider and am 922r compliant.

I can still use my 5-round Russian mag because I do not need to be compliant when the 5-rounder is installed.

 

But I want to add a Tapco Intrafuse T6 combo adjustable stock and pistol grip. This makes the S-12 permanently evil and makes my parts count 15 since I added a pistol grip (even though it is integral with the stock).

My parts count is therefore 15 minus 1 for US stock minus 3 for the US high cap mag minus 1 for the US flash hider which equals 10 and is compliant.

But, if I insert the 5-round Russian mag I am illegal since I add back 3 Russian parts, so I can never use my Russian 5-rounder again.

How did I do?

Edited September 2, 2009 by SELFDEFENSE

[camon 233]

So an analog for a threaded Saiga 12 shotty could be:

Want to use a US mag over 5 rounds which kicks in 922r compliance requirements.

Starting with 14 Russian parts, the US mag reduces Russian count by 3 leaving 11 Russian parts.

Need to remove 1 more Russian, and do so by replacing the thread protector with US flash hider and am 922r compliant.

I can still use my 5-round Russian mag because I do not need to be compliant when the 5-rounder is installed.

 

But I want to add a Tapco Intrafuse T6 combo adjustable stock and pistol grip. This makes the S-12 permanently evil and makes my parts count 15 since I added a pistol grip (even though it is integral with the stock).

My parts count is therefore 15 minus 1 for US stock minus 3 for the US high cap mag minus 1 for the US flash hider which equals 10 and is compliant.

But, if I insert the 5-round Russian mag I am illegal since I add back 3 Russian parts, so I can never use my Russian 5-rounder again.

How did I do?

 

As long as the PG is a US part it won't matter for you because the PG will force you to replace the FGC which consists of 3 US parts.

 

US FGC + US Stock = 4 US parts and 10 Foreign parts = LEGAL

[SELFDEFENSE 2]

So an analog for a threaded Saiga 12 shotty could be:

Want to use a US mag over 5 rounds which kicks in 922r compliance requirements.

Starting with 14 Russian parts, the US mag reduces Russian count by 3 leaving 11 Russian parts.

Need to remove 1 more Russian, and do so by replacing the thread protector with US flash hider and am 922r compliant.

I can still use my 5-round Russian mag because I do not need to be compliant when the 5-rounder is installed.

 

But I want to add a Tapco Intrafuse T6 combo adjustable stock and pistol grip. This makes the S-12 permanently evil and makes my parts count 15 since I added a pistol grip (even though it is integral with the stock).

My parts count is therefore 15 minus 1 for US stock minus 3 for the US high cap mag minus 1 for the US flash hider which equals 10 and is compliant.

But, if I insert the 5-round Russian mag I am illegal since I add back 3 Russian parts, so I can never use my Russian 5-rounder again.

How did I do?

 

 

 

Camon: "As long as the PG is a US part it won't matter for you because the PG will force you to replace the FGC which consists of 3 US parts.

 

US FGC + US Stock = 4 US parts and 10 Foreign parts = LEGAL

 

The Intrafuse is made specifically to retain the stock FCG, so I would not have those 3 US parts, only the 1 US part from the Intrafuse stock.

[camon 233]

So an analog for a threaded Saiga 12 shotty could be:

Want to use a US mag over 5 rounds which kicks in 922r compliance requirements.

Starting with 14 Russian parts, the US mag reduces Russian count by 3 leaving 11 Russian parts.

Need to remove 1 more Russian, and do so by replacing the thread protector with US flash hider and am 922r compliant.

I can still use my 5-round Russian mag because I do not need to be compliant when the 5-rounder is installed.

 

But I want to add a Tapco Intrafuse T6 combo adjustable stock and pistol grip. This makes the S-12 permanently evil and makes my parts count 15 since I added a pistol grip (even though it is integral with the stock).

My parts count is therefore 15 minus 1 for US stock minus 3 for the US high cap mag minus 1 for the US flash hider which equals 10 and is compliant.

But, if I insert the 5-round Russian mag I am illegal since I add back 3 Russian parts, so I can never use my Russian 5-rounder again.

How did I do?

 

 

 

Camon: "As long as the PG is a US part it won't matter for you because the PG will force you to replace the FGC which consists of 3 US parts.

 

US FGC + US Stock = 4 US parts and 10 Foreign parts = LEGAL

 

The Intrafuse is made specifically to retain the stock FCG, so I would not have those 3 US parts, only the 1 US part from the Intrafuse stock.

 

Oh well then yea. Go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

 

PS: why you would want to use the stock FCG is beyond me. And don't use money as an excuse. I would much rather save up for a proper conversion and replace my fake trigger that pulls real trigger any day of the week.

[SELFDEFENSE 2]

I get 10 Russian parts by my count and do not go to jail.

Its just that I can't use my 5-round Russian anymore.

 

Added: From the sticky thread "Parts Count on Saiga Shotguns and Rifles, 922r, parts count list, examples and links" (http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=18530):

 

".....Examples:

You have a Saiga-12 with factory threaded barrel. (14 parts) You want to convert it to pistol grip configuration. You will need 5 U.S. made parts to make it a U.S. firearm since adding a pistol grip is adding a part from the list."

 

My 5 parts are 3 from US high cap mag, 1 from US flash hider/muzzle brake, 1 from Tapco US adjustable stock.

 

And if I had left it without a pistol grip I would need 4 US parts which would be 3 from US high cap mag, 1 from US flash hider/muzzle brake.

(Unless, of course, some Fed says US mags don't count as compliance parts and/or the brake/flash hider makes it an evil gun per se; in which case a bunch of us are screwed.)

Edited September 3, 2009 by SELFDEFENSE

[nalioth 405]

Added: From the sticky thread "Parts Count on Saiga Shotguns and Rifles, 922r, parts count list, examples and links" (http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=18530):

 

".....Examples:

You have a Saiga-12 with factory threaded barrel. (14 parts) You want to convert it to pistol grip configuration. You will need 5 U.S. made parts to make it a U.S. firearm since adding a pistol grip is adding a part from the list."

That example has been proven wrong.

 

Just adding a pistol grip and solid butt stock does not immediately throw you into the 'fires of 922r perdition'.

 

Please see post #14.

[camon 233]

Selfdefense, sorry I was running under the notion that you were using a foreign mag.

[SELFDEFENSE 2]

Yes, but as I understand it, my 20-round MD drum and Surefire 12-rounder do put it in non-sporting 922r territory, requiring me to get down to 10 non-US parts counted as above (with the constant assumption that a US mag gives you 3 compliance replacement parts for the stock Russian mag).

[camon 233]

Yes, but as I understand it, my 20-round MD drum and Surefire 12-rounder do put it in non-sporting 922r territory, requiring me to get down to 10 non-US parts counted as above (with the constant assumption that a US mag gives you 3 compliance replacement parts for the stock Russian mag).

 

Correct, and your Tapco stock + one of those mags would put you at 4 US parts, 10 Foreign.

[SELFDEFENSE 2]

Yes, but as I understand it, my 20-round MD drum and Surefire 12-rounder do put it in non-sporting 922r territory, requiring me to get down to 10 non-US parts counted as above (with the constant assumption that a US mag gives you 3 compliance replacement parts for the stock Russian mag).

 

Correct, and your Tapco stock + one of those mags would put you at 4 US parts, 10 Foreign.

 

 

As I understand it, since the Tapco T6 is a one-piece stock and pistol grip, the pistol grip is a countable part that gets me up to 15 to start. But since I have a DPH flash hider/muzzle brake, that counts 1 replacement part, the T6 stock is 1 part, and the US mag is 3 parts; so I am down from 15 to 10.

[dngrspot 3]

Try this, an excelent post has been made by IndyArms here. In his post he links to a worksheet for Saiga and AK-47/AK-74 builds. This is a really cool set of tools, where you just click on boxes, and you find out if you are compliant with 922r.

 

If memory serves, it is stickied somewhere around here. As for me, I added all three to favorites.

[SELFDEFENSE 2]

I have seen that post, but when I look at its count with a Saiga 12 it gives a count of 15 (including a front trunion) for a threaded S 12; but I have seen many other places that 14 is the correct starting count for a threaded S 12.

[nalioth 405]

I have seen that post, but when I look at its count with a Saiga 12 it gives a count of 15 (including a front trunion) for a threaded S 12; but I have seen many other places that 14 is the correct starting count for a threaded S 12.

The checklist does not take into account that the Saiga-12 does not have a "barrel trunnion" (aka "front trunnion")

 

A threaded barrel Saiga shotty has 14 countable parts.

[dngrspot 3]

I have seen that post, but when I look at its count with a Saiga 12 it gives a count of 15 (including a front trunion) for a threaded S 12; but I have seen many other places that 14 is the correct starting count for a threaded S 12.

 

For AK's it gives a count of 15, for Saiga's it shows a count of 14. Make sure that you clicked on the correct link. The Saiga does not (normaly) come with a pistol grip, and that drops the count to 14, as the link shows.