geobag 0 Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 i am a noob with the gun, but i was wondering if the saiga 12 will cycle rubber buckshot or other speciality ammo. thanks!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 No. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 (edited) Even if the load isn't strong enough to cycle the action, it will still fire the round. You could hand cycle the rubber shot until you get to more serious rounds. EDIT: Since you are a self proclaimed noob, I will say don't fire rubber shot at something you don't intend serious damage to. Rubber shot rounds are not paintballs. Edited April 28, 2009 by Spartacus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
geobag 0 Posted April 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Thanks for the heads up! Are there any after market add ons that would give you this capability? Just trying to figure out what is possible and whats not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 I would say that you would want to follow the suggestions to help the S12 handle light target loads. The idea is to maximize the gas power and minimize the resistance of the action. The first changes would be the Gunfixer gas plug, KA tappet, and the reduced power mainspring. Test with those changes and then determine if any further mods are needed. Just curious, is the rubber shot for LEO applications? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
geobag 0 Posted April 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Thanks Spartacus, No, not for LEO application, I was just trying to figure options for home defense. I know there are different opinions on what type of ammo to use, and to be honest I sit on the fence today, trying to decide which way to go. The fact that I cant reliably cycle high or medium velocity rubber buckshot is pushing me towards some birdshot options, but to be honest with two little ones in the house its not a decision that I want to rush into. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 I took a 22" gun and put an 8" gas system on it, and it still would not even move the bolt carrier in the slightest with rubber buckshot loads. You can throw all the low recoil parts at if you like, but it's not going to happen. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Thanks Spartacus, No, not for LEO application, I was just trying to figure options for home defense. I know there are different opinions on what type of ammo to use, and to be honest I sit on the fence today, trying to decide which way to go. The fact that I cant reliably cycle high or medium velocity rubber buckshot is pushing me towards some birdshot options, but to be honest with two little ones in the house its not a decision that I want to rush into. The use of a 12 guage shotgun to attempt to deliver non-lethal force by a private citizen is legal libility sucide. If you can not justify the possibility of killing someone, you can not justtify using a normal 12 guage. There is legally no such thing as "shooting to wound." I know what I am talking about here. Get a can of pepper spray if you want "less then lethal" and understand that you are opening yet another can of snakes to live in the pit that you are digging yourself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odin Overland 0 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Thanks Spartacus, No, not for LEO application, I was just trying to figure options for home defense. I know there are different opinions on what type of ammo to use, and to be honest I sit on the fence today, trying to decide which way to go. The fact that I cant reliably cycle high or medium velocity rubber buckshot is pushing me towards some birdshot options, but to be honest with two little ones in the house its not a decision that I want to rush into. The use of a 12 guage shotgun to attempt to deliver non-lethal force by a private citizen is legal libility sucide. If you can not justify the possibility of killing someone, you can not justtify using a normal 12 guage. There is legally no such thing as "shooting to wound." I know what I am talking about here. Get a can of pepper spray if you want "less then lethal" and understand that you are opening yet another can of snakes to live in the pit that you are digging yourself. Azrial is right. If you are going to defend yourself in your home, know your state laws, and use lethal force. If they come out of it alive, you'll probably regret it. If they die and have a family that is lawsuit happy, well, I hope you have more ammo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WardenWolf 6 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 (edited) Even as funny as a 12 gauge shell loaded with Pepperballs would be, no. You shoot to kill / stop, not wound. Edited April 28, 2009 by Mike the Wolf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
turbo1889 1 Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 If you want to shoot rubber balls at them, why not get a pump gun like a Mossberg Persuader and take out the plug. Load the first two with "I'm warning you ammo", the next 5-6 with 00 Buck. NAH, Just go with the MD-20 drum and 20 rounds of 00 Buck..... DEAD MEN DON'T TALK or complain about civil rights violations while commiting a crime. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StarPD 6 Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Pay attention to what Azrial and others here have advised. Never, ever, shoot to warn or wound. If you need to use a firearm, your goal is to completely and instantly incapacitate. It does you no good if you shoot poorly and your adversary dies the next day, but kills you and your family before he dies. Usually, instant incapacitation also results in instant death, but that's the way it is. Besides the incapacitation issue, there are legal aspects of shooting an adversary that must be kept in mind. Never dismiss the idea that a wounded agressor can and frequently will sue you for a number of reasons, no matter how ludicrous they may sound to you. If they win, and it's very possible, they can take everything you have and will have for the rest of your life. Don't ignore this. It HAS happened. You can also be charged criminally. If the threat was deadly enough to require use of a firearm to protect yourself and your family, legally, it should require lethal force, meaning you should shoot to kill. It sounds strange that the law requires you to shoot to kill rather than to wound, but that's the way it is in most jurisdictions. It's possible that you could be prosecuted as a violent criminal for NOT killing an adversary. Leave rubber pellets to the police for riot control. They are protected by law where you are not. I get a lot of argument over it, but like yourself, I am concerned about overpenetration inside my home. It's not ideal, but considering the alternatives, I use #8 dove loads in 12 gauge for inside the home self defense. At close range it will do serious damage to an assailant, but stray pellets hitting drywall 12' away are less likely to penetrate and harm family. Yes, I know at extreme close range, a charge of #8 shot will penetrate drywall, but anything outside of a slingshot will at close range. The #8 shot is a lot less likely to penetrate 2 layers of drywall at 10-14' inside a home than any handgun, rifle, or shotgun load of 00 Buck or slug. Even so, I do keep 3 rounds of #8 and 2 rounds of 00 Buck in my home defense 5 round mag. The 5 round mag is for better maneuverability and handling inside the home. I also have at hand backup 10 round mags filled with more 00 Buck and slugs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reverendfranz 160 Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Pay attention to what Azrial and others here have advised. Never, ever, shoot to warn or wound. If you need to use a firearm, your goal is to completely and instantly incapacitate. It does you no good if you shoot poorly and your adversary dies the next day, but kills you and your family before he dies. Usually, instant incapacitation also results in instant death, but that's the way it is. +1, and both Azrial and StarPD do know what they are talking about. The only use ive seen for rubber buckshot is chasing off stray dogs in rural areas, and even then id say the same rules apply, if you need to use lethal force, use it, otherwise you probably dont need to shoot at it. Hitting a perp with a frying pan or a baseball bat is a better idea than trying to rely on less lethal ammunition to protect yourself and your family, and even then isnt something you can get away with without feeling that your life is in danger. Personaly, if my life is in danger and a threat must be stopped, id rather have the best tool for the job, and that is not mace, rubber buckshot, a baseball bat or anything other than a loaded and capable firearm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobRez 1,895 Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 A++ on the shoot to kill! If you shoot to wound, that tells a jury that your life was NOT in imminent danger! therefore you have no right to use that gun to shoot him.Most states laws only permit you to shoot if your life is in immediate danger, and if that is the case you kill the fucker!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobRez 1,895 Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Oh yeah, and most exotic ammo is sensationalized CRAP! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Can't add much to what has already been said about the use of non-lethals and liability, but something important was left out regarding mace. Unless you are wearing a gas mask (because, of course, whenever something goes bump in the night we all have time to put one on), using mace inside your home can be almost, if not just as bad for you as for the assailant. If you decide to purchase mace for indoor use, do not use bear spray. You will have just as bad a time as your assailant, and it will take days to air out your home. If you want to use mace, buy the foam. It doesn't pollute the air nearly as badly as the spray, but it does require a bit more aim. Take it or leave it, that's my $.02 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
454496 71 Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I have to play the other side of this. It is not as easy as it sounds to kill another human. What if a home invader inside your home is unarmed. You or your wife shot and kill him. Will the jury say your life was not in imminent danger so you did not have no right to use lethal force? For me only, I would be far better off wounding another human to stop him than kill him. By the way will a 12 Gauge Fin Stabilized Rubber Rocket (A.L.S.) cycle in the S12? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I have to play the other side of this. It is not as easy as it sounds to kill another human. What if a home invader inside your home is unarmed. You or your wife shot and kill him. Will the jury say your life was not in imminent danger so you did not have no right to use lethal force? For me only, I would be far better off wounding another human to stop him than kill him.... A person that breaks into your home, where you and your family sleep, is obviously dangerous. If I confronted such a person I would order him to the ground, if he complied we could wait on the police together. If he ran, well, I would let him leave. If he charged me, like I said, I already KNOW by his actions that he is dangerous, and I would do what I needed to do to protect my family. If you think that it is hard to kill a dangerous intruder to protect your family, try telling them that you did not feel that it was morally right to defend them, and how sorry you are that they suffered being attacked in their sleep! I doubt that is something any man would want to do. But whatever you do, work all of this out right now. The middle of home invasion is no place for a moral dilemma! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I have to play the other side of this. It is not as easy as it sounds to kill another human. What if a home invader inside your home is unarmed. You or your wife shot and kill him. Will the jury say your life was not in imminent danger so you did not have no right to use lethal force? For me only, I would be far better off wounding another human to stop him than kill him. By the way will a 12 Gauge Fin Stabilized Rubber Rocket (A.L.S.) cycle in the S12? No, it will not. I contacted ALS Technologies regarding their nonlethals when I was still a newbie to semi-auto shotguns, and they stated without reservation that none of their nonlethal ammunition would cycle any semiautomatic weapon. You state that for you only, it'd be better to wound another human being instead of kill. Probably not. Injury is one thing, as in most places it will be seen that it was justified if you use physical force to subdue an intruder. Wounding someone with a weapon intended to apply lethal force, as stated repeatedly by other posters, is an invitation to have your life ruined by litigation. Never point a gun at something unless you want to destroy it. All that specialty ammunition is good for only a few things in civilian hands; chasing off the neighbor's dog in a rural area without killing it, leaving it on the shelf to admire as part of your collection, and getting your ass sued or even sent to prison for defending yourself in a politically incorrect manner. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
454496 71 Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Thank you for the information about the ALS rounds. Saved me some money from buying them and trying them. I guess I am one of the lucky ones. Number 3 that jury or judge uses under NM self defense says: 3. The defendant used an amount of force that the defendant believed was reasonable and necessary to prevent the bodily harm; (under defense of property law also) That protects me wounding a criminal instead of killing the criminal without repercussions from that criminal for not killing the criminal. Then the jury or judge cannot say, you did not kill him so you did not have no right to use deadly force. That you did not kill him repercussions stuff only sounds like Cali. Never said I would not shoot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thehopping1 105 Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 I'm glad I live in Az. The burden of proof falls on the criminal that got shot (killed) to prove he was not supposed to be shot. Dead men tell no tales. If someone breaks into my home, they will most likely have a weapon such as a crow bar or something to get them through the door. And if I come out with my 12g loaded with slugs and flashlight blaring, see a weapon in hand, that guy has a very short time to hit the floor or hit the bricks. I hope I never have to use any of my guns to shoot some one, but I'm not going to pull it out unless I intend on ending some ones life. However, if you insist on less lethal and have the cash, try this and let us know how they feed through a Saiga. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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