Salmonking 149 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Hello all, I'm new to the forum, and plan to be purchasing my first rifle soon. The dilemma? I don't know which model of saiga to go with. Whatever model I do go with will be fully converted will according to 922 ® requirements, but I have a question about the purpose and Philosophy of Use, or POU, between the rifle and shotgun Saigas. I intend to use the rifle/shotgun at ranges, and possibly while hunting; however, I am generally concerned about which model (rifle or shotgun) would be most effective in a "without rule of law" situation for home and possibly neighborhood defense/patrol. As it is, I've labeled my choice down to either a Saiga .308, or the Saiga 12, but am curious as to which would work 'best' in the event of absence in social order. I know it's a little more than paranoid, but I like to look at the whole picture before buying a new gun. Since I can't buy both, I'd love to hear your opinions and reasoning before my purchase to gain a little more insight. Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PRISONSHANK 70 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 you'll probably end up getting both after you get one anyways but if your in a suburb type setting i'd stick with the S12 as you'll most likely have plenty of cover to hide behind. i have both and the option of making long shots with a 308 then switching to the 12 under 100 yards is key. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 .308 is an awesome rifle. 12ga is an awesome shotgun. For close ranges the shotgun wins For long ranges the rifle wins The shotgun is more FUN to me though Quote Link to post Share on other sites
elvis christ 451 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 +1 to the "you'll end up getting both." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DOXtheOX 1 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 (edited) I stumbled upon this thread on the officer.com police forums this morning. It discusses the use of the remington 870 and ar 15. http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119502 Keep in mind that they are talking about the 870 not the semi-auto mag fed s12 and that most departments use the .223 not the .308. Just thought a LE perspective would be interesting. Edited April 28, 2009 by DOXtheOX Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wotan1105 7 Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 You'll end up with 2, 3, 4 different ones when it's all said and done. May as well just admit that fact now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brair 5 Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) Get the S 12 for now. You will get other guns later. There will always be a place for the S 12 in home defense etc. The S 12 is fun to shoot. You will have to convert and personalize it, but it is well worth it. A big reason to go with the S 12 for now over the others, ammo. You can get plenty of bird shot and other 12 gauge loads vs other types of ammo in most places. Edited April 29, 2009 by Brair Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 The S-12 and the S-.308 have no direct analogues. In that order, nothing else available here to even compare to an S-12, and the hard to find and expen$$$ive Veeper is the only competitor for the S-.308. The S-.410 is also alone in it's class. The S.223 and S7.62-39 have several competitors (to their converted configuration) but the Saigas are Russian made in M K's own arsenal and all NEW. Start with an S-12 then get the S-.308. The rest as you get the $$$ together. That is hard because these things are so much fun that you will drop many $$$ feeding them. Welcome to our addiction! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salmonking 149 Posted April 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Thanks for all the help guys. I think I'll just have to accept that I'll be buying both in due time, lol. A few other approaches though; Concerning ammo, I've found a couple different sites online that sell bulk 308 ammo for relatively cheap (wolf being one of them, a low grain-age practice ammo being the other http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=502766&kwtid=294379) Has anyone had experience with this lower grained ammo? It says the effective range is out to 320 yards and I'd be going around 50-100, though you have to self cycle. Concerning the S-12, DOXtheOX brought up another question in my mind- the Remmington 870. I know the main appeal of the Saiga is that it's fully automatic, but is the reliability on par with pump action shotguns? Also, a friend who has had an... encounter with a home invader informed me the main appeal of the pump actions is that the sound of it loading that first round; he said it caused the intruder to basically crap his pants- and rightly so! I know the 'sound issue' is not that big of a deal, especially with what you gain from high-capacity mags, but it's a subject of curiosity for me. Thank you everyone for your feedback, and for breaking the news to me that I'm going to be hopelessly addicted Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salmonking 149 Posted April 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Also, is $500 (shipping paid by seller) a good deal on a S-12 with about 50 rounds through it? What would be a decent pricing on the 308- Prices on GB are set from 550-800; is this a little too much? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vultite 57 Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 if .308 and 12 gauge were my only two choices, i'd go with 12 gauge, .308 is a good rifle, but IMO i'd rather have a different .308 rifle setup then a saiga, but S-12's are something else... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 I came to this site looking to get a .308 saiga only. (Poor Man's Dragunov) And now I have saigas in: 7.62x39 12ga 12ga 30-06 .308 You can buy only one.... but then you'll come back and buy ONLY one more.... and only one more. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Also, is $500 (shipping paid by seller) a good deal on a S-12 with about 50 rounds through it? What would be a decent pricing on the 308- Prices on GB are set from 550-800; is this a little too much? As far as prices go, I've seen them go brand new on gunbroker (recently) for $515 or so. However, 50 rounds is meaningless in terms of use. I have at least 2000 rounds through mine and it just gets better with use. I can't imagine that you will EVER wear it out. You might have to tinker with it to get it the way you want it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scarbrough68289 76 Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Thanks for all the help guys. I think I'll just have to accept that I'll be buying both in due time, lol. A few other approaches though; Concerning ammo, I've found a couple different sites online that sell bulk 308 ammo for relatively cheap (wolf being one of them, a low grain-age practice ammo being the other http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=502766&kwtid=294379) Has anyone had experience with this lower grained ammo? It says the effective range is out to 320 yards and I'd be going around 50-100, though you have to self cycle. Concerning the S-12, DOXtheOX brought up another question in my mind- the Remmington 870. I know the main appeal of the Saiga is that it's fully automatic, but is the reliability on par with pump action shotguns? Also, a friend who has had an... encounter with a home invader informed me the main appeal of the pump actions is that the sound of it loading that first round; he said it caused the intruder to basically crap his pants- and rightly so! I know the 'sound issue' is not that big of a deal, especially with what you gain from high-capacity mags, but it's a subject of curiosity for me. Thank you everyone for your feedback, and for breaking the news to me that I'm going to be hopelessly addicted The sound of racking the bolt in the Saiga is plenty "Oops I crapped my pants" inducing. My dogs hauled ass while I was hand cycling to test my promags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
555JM 10 Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 My dogs hauled ass while I was hand cycling to test my promags. So funny! I can just picture that. Can you say "gun shy"? SalmonKing, the .308 has always struck me as either a "wide open spaces" hunting cartridge or fodder for a full-up battle rifle. I'd be afraid to use one for defense or patrol in a settled area. Too much reach. Unless you're out in the boonies somewhere, the S-12 would make more sense for your stated use. Maybe you should take another look at the smaller rifle calibers. The x39 would be the better man-stopper, but might still have too much penetration around dwellings. The .223 loaded with lightweight (50-55gr.) soft-point bullets would be better as the bullet would blow up before penetrating very far; but it would give you more reach and precision than a shotgun. Either caliber would be cheaper to shoot than the .308 Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sidewinderl 43 Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Get the S 12 for now. You will get other guns later. There will always be a place for the S 12 in home defense etc. The S 12 is fun to shoot. You will have to convert and personalize it, but it is well worth it. A big reason to go with the S 12 for now over the others, ammo. You can get plenty of bird shot and other 12 gauge loads vs other types of ammo in most places. +1 ..and +1 to what obake said. There'll be no doubt when you rack that bolt for the first time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki0629 55 Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I know the main appeal of the Saiga is that it's fully automatic, but is the reliability on par with pump action shotguns? It's a semi and it is reliable with MOST ammo. There might be a brand or two that will make it barf so make a note of it and avoid them. When you've run a few hundred rounds through the weapon, try the ammo again. Breaking in the gun helps. BTW I started out with the .308. I haven't found ammo that thing WON'T eat. A few months later, I got an S-12. When you rack the bolt on the s-12 it is loud and it means business. The sound my Winchester Defender makes is almost wimpy compared to the s-12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Start with the 12 gauge. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salmonking 149 Posted May 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Great advice guys, and thanks for the massive amounts of help and input. I'm going for the S-12 at the moment; just waiting for the right price. I'll post pics after conversion- so now the next question. Should I donate my Kidney, or bone marrow for conversion funds ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Salmon, You have no choice. You MUST get both! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raoul_Duke 113 Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Should I donate my Kidney, or bone marrow for conversion funds ? IMO, conversions are cheap compared to the cost of trying to feed these damn things . . . Welcome to the addiction . . . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salmonking 149 Posted May 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 oh, one last question for you all; Barrel length. I know it comes with a 19' or 24' barrel, but which do you prefer? Lol, I'm probably going to be told to buy both... I know I want to. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 I have both barrel lengths in stock right now, if you are interested. I myself prefer the 19" over the 24", but then again I dont hunt waterfoul. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brair 5 Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 It depends on what you plan to do with it. Mainly home defense the 19. Hunting..go with the 24. Shorter barrel makes it easier to handle in tighter areas.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salmonking 149 Posted May 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 the 19" S-12 has been purchased from the internet peoples for $550, and so the floodgates have been unleashed. Wish me luck gentlemen, and thanks for all the advice again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PRISONSHANK 70 Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 good game Kingsalmon..... good game Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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