Saiga or AR-15

[billyjoebob 10]

[BobAsh 582]

Well, you need both.

 

The two are so different it's kinda hard to offer advise.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

If I were you, I'd buy both a Saiga 7.62x39 and a Saiga 12. AR's are nice and accurate when they're immaculately clean, but with just a little fouling, (which is inevitible due to the direct impingement gas system they use), it's jam-city. To keep that from starting to happen after just a few mags, you have to buy and shoot "clean" 5.56 ammo, (more expensive). In contrast, a Saiga 7.62, (or .223, or 5.45, or .308), will fire any ammo of the correct caliber, no matter how cheap or "dirty" burning it is. The cheapest ammo to be found in these calibers is usually steel-cased and Russian-made. Saigas eat Russian ammo all day with zero issues. Reliability is obviously the hallmark of Kalashnikov designs and the most important quality in a SHTF weapon.

 

It's all subjective, and I do have a Rock River M4, but it's not my go-to SHTF weapon, my Saigas are. If you decide to go with an AR, I recommend one of the mods that use the short gas piston system.. of course they're 3x+ as expensive as a Saiga.. so for the price of a good AR you could buy a Saiga rifle, a Saiga 12, and the parts to convert both to proper trigger groups, pistol grips etc. 2 extremely reliable and effective firearms or 1 fairly reliable firearm? Hmmm.. the choice seems easy to me.

 

Also, it's a whole other debate, but imo the 5.56 is a little small for an all-around rifle caliber. If the shit ever truly does hit the proverbial fan, you're gonna want a caliber that's not only effective against human targets, but something you can hunt deer with and something that will do a decent job of penetrating light cover. The 7.62x39 will do all of the above.

 

Of course most of the above points concern a Saiga rifle vs an AR. Imo the purchase of a Saiga 12 should be a no-brainer. There is no firearm more versatile at <~50 yards than a 12 gauge shotgun, whether you're hunting birds, hogs, deer, or the most dangerous game. And there is no better tactical shotgun available to American citizens than the Saiga 12. 12 gauge shells are also more plentiful and generally cheaper than the above rifle calibers, so you can go practice for less $ and more easily afford to stock up on some nice rifled slugs and big ol buckshot.

Edited April 28, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[DOXtheOX 1]

Its kinda like walking into McDonald's and asking everyone in the place if you should have a Big Mac or a Chalupa for lunch.

 

But I can understand... you want to know from people who have saiga 12s if they prefer it over their ar.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I have both, I like both, I'm glad i have both.

 

I shoot the S-12 more than i shoot the AR-15

 

maybe that helps you?

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

I would say for having fun at the range, I would go with the Saiga 12. Here are my actual reasons:

 

1. Ammo is available and less expensive (about half) than the AR15 right now.

 

100 rounds of wally world federal #8 shot 12 gauge should cost about $.24/round

 

100 rounds of cheap shitty Wolf will run at least $.35/round (at $6.99/20 round box) if you can find it - more likely $.40/round+.

 

2. The grin factor for dumping 10+ rounds of 12 gauge is much more than rapid firing the AR15.

 

3. AR15's are over priced right now and will likely stabilize if no ban is enacted before the 2010 elections.

 

4. Saiga's are easily available and not that hard to convert with instruction here; once converted, they will be "banned" just the same as an AR15 if the gun grabbers ever do pass anything - so that is not an excuse!

 

I own five AR platform weapons (2 in .223, 2 in .308, 1 in .260) and only 2 Saiga 12's now (sold my third as it didn't do anything the other two couldn't. I love both platforms and if you can get both, then do it!

[MCASgt New River 10,036]

5.56 Caliber AR's I own:

RRA 16" Barrel - What I'll place next to my wife should SHTF.

Bushmaster 10.5" SBR - What I'll strap to my back should SHTF.

*C3 Defense 10.5" 9mm (Suppressed) - What will be close at hand should I need to be sneaky squirrel.

 

Saiga's I own:

Saiga 12ga converted 18" - what I will hand the wife should SHTF.

Tromix S17 8" barrel - what I'll grab should SHTF.

 

Each has it's own form & function. What one does VERY WELL the other, well not so much and vice versa. Just know you will need one of each and then you'll begine to realise what you have needs a backup!

 

Good Luck!

[ERG80 0]

I prefer the Saiga 12

 

I was surprised at the responses from ar15

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&...=2&t=278539

[HillBilly2 9]

First of all, 1: buy something, it don't matter what. 2: then shoot it. 3: A lot. 4: Then decide if you like it. 5: IF you do, then buy something else and go to step 1. Else go to step 7. 7: Trade it for something else. go to step 2. Repeat monthly forever.

 

Get rid of the idea that a moderate is a good thing. Do not fear making mistakes, thats how we learn.

 

Do not ask opinions, because that's all they are. You can't trust them, because there all the opinion of an ignorant HillBilly!

[hobbyshooter 59]

Get 2 Saiga 12's. That way your covered if one breaks under a shtf scenario. You'll also be paying as much as 1 AR.

 

The people that recieved Vodka specials have been well taken care of by RAAC and Cadiz. The support given to us by those 2 companies is better than any service I've seen anywhere! These guys care and make things right!

 

What do you need .223 range for? Do you plan to hunt? In my imagination a shtf scenario doesn't require any distance. Any I've already figured out what my Saiga 12 can do at 50 yards.

[madmax4x4 68]

[billyjoebob 10]

I was surprised at the responses from ar15

 

I was the OP of that thread as well. I figured everyone on that board would push AR's, and this board would do the opposite. Everyone has been pretty impartial, offering good reasons and experience.

 

Do not ask opinions, because that's all they are. You can't trust them, because there all the opinion of an ignorant HillBilly!

 

Opinions are one reason that these boards are great. Where else can I get intel from people that own and shoot the two platforms that I'm looking for?

 

Thanks for all the input

[Superhawk138 202]

I personally own both saiga 12 and a S&W M&P15. I still find myself shooting the saiga 12 and the Saiga .223 more than my AR.

[zaxon_182 44]

I bought my saiga first and I have waaaaay more fun with it than my DPMS LR-308. I know, not an AR-15, but still an AR pattern rifle.

But I also love shotguns and I fell in love with my saiga the first time I shot it. If there ever was a gun for me, the saiga is it.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that you need both. The AR is a great rifle that has been proven effective and anything AK based is so butt fucking reliable that it is in a league of its own.

 

Just buy both, I'm happy I did. Now to scrounge up money for a 7.62x39 saiga to convert...

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Get 2 Saiga 12's. That way your covered if one breaks under a shtf scenario. You'll also be paying as much as 1 AR.

 

The people that recieved Vodka specials have been well taken care of by RAAC and Cadiz. The support given to us by those 2 companies is better than any service I've seen anywhere! These guys care and make things right!

 

What do you need .223 range for? Do you plan to hunt? In my imagination a shtf scenario doesn't require any distance. Any I've already figured out what my Saiga 12 can do at 50 yards.

 

..the fuck can you hunt with .223 anyway? Varmints, yeah.. you wanna eat rabbit and coyote forever?

 

The hunting aspect is one reason I advocate buying a Saiga 7.62 or .308 over an AR. With one of those you can kill deer easily.

 

I still advocate buying a Saiga 7.62 and Saiga 12, with conversion parts, for what the OP would spend on a single good AR, (one with the gas piston, direct impingement AR's are wayyy too vulnerable to jams imo)

Edited April 29, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[Gunfixr 76]

I have both, I like both, and they each serve a different purpose.

I probably have more fun with my AR than with my S12, but it's pretty close. This is probably due to the range facilities where I am, lending themselves more to rifle shooting than shotgun shooting.

 

As to the AR being a jam-o-matic, that's BS. I'll agree that the AK platform is more reliable than the AR platform, but ARs having to be squeaky clean? Please! If that's your deal, you bought a POS. I ran 1400+rds of Wolf through my AR, both lacquer and polymer, over about a year, leaving it sit for up to a month or 2 at a time, without even cleaning it, and it always worked. Finally cleaned it because I couldn't recognise the parts when I looked inside. I had to run the bolt, stripped down, in the ultrasonic for well over an hour to get it cleaned out. It took the phosphate off with the crud. It ain't no high-dollar gun either, it's a parts gun.

 

My first choice is to get both. If you can't get both, pick the one that best fits what kind of shooting you can do in your AO.

[dannyfantasy2000 68]

I have both, I like both, and they each serve a different purpose.

I probably have more fun with my AR than with my S12, but it's pretty close. This is probably due to the range facilities where I am, lending themselves more to rifle shooting than shotgun shooting.

 

As to the AR being a jam-o-matic, that's BS. I'll agree that the AK platform is more reliable than the AR platform, but ARs having to be squeaky clean? Please! If that's your deal, you bought a POS. I ran 1400+rds of Wolf through my AR, both lacquer and polymer, over about a year, leaving it sit for up to a month or 2 at a time, without even cleaning it, and it always worked. Finally cleaned it because I couldn't recognise the parts when I looked inside. I had to run the bolt, stripped down, in the ultrasonic for well over an hour to get it cleaned out. It took the phosphate off with the crud. It ain't no high-dollar gun either, it's a parts gun.

 

My first choice is to get both. If you can't get both, pick the one that best fits what kind of shooting you can do in your AO.

 

+1. I don't know who started the rumor that M-16/AR-15's jam all the time and have to be spotless. I have put tens of thousands of rounds through the barrels of many different M-4s, M-16s, and AR-15s. Never have I had a malfunction not caused by the magazine. If you have a decent mag like a Magpul, HK, or even a milsurp in OK condition, you will have no worries. Especially no worries about the cleanliness of the bolt or the chamber. I have noticed that after about 1000 rounds or so with no cleaning, the action does start to slow down a lot, but cycling is still fine.

[hobbyshooter 59]

I agree about the AR. I have shot several and none of them have ever had feed or ejection issues.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

People who claim the AR is a jam-o-matic are the same ones who claim that AK platforms are soooo inaccurate.

 

The three-shots @ 100 out of my .308 Saiga below should prove otherwise.

Edited April 29, 2009 by SaigaNoobie

[gothchick 0]

It's all subjective, and I do have a Rock River M4, but it's not my go-to SHTF weapon, my Saigas are.

+1

 

I have an LMT and Noveski AR (Which are very good as far as ARs go), but if the SHTF I'm taking one of my Saigas - not the ARs. My Saiga 223s group damn near at tight as my ARs at 100 yards. And the Saigas have the advantage of a clean/ cool running gas piston vs. the ARs dirty and hot direct impingment...

 

Of course most of the above points concern a Saiga rifle vs an AR. Imo the purchase of a Saiga 12 should be a no-brainer. There is no firearm more versatile at <~50 yards than a 12 gauge shotgun, whether you're hunting birds, hogs, deer, or the most dangerous game. And there is no better tactical shotgun available to American citizens than the Saiga 12. 12 gauge shells are also more plentiful and generally cheaper than the above rifle calibers, so you can go practice for less $ and more easily afford to stock up on some nice rifled slugs and big ol buckshot.

Only problem with taking an S12 as a go gun is the bulk and weight of the ammo. Plus limited range. And I'd rather not have to hump that through the bush. For those reasons, 5.56 is my caliber of choice. To give it extra punch, I'll only be taking the M855 SS109 variety of 5.56 ammo.

 

7.62 would be ideal if it wasn't so heavy and bulky compared to 5.56. Of course, I'm a girl too so take that for what it's worth... Men have bigger muscles to carry that shit. lol.

Edited April 29, 2009 by gothchick

[Crusader 64]

It's all subjective, and I do have a Rock River M4, but it's not my go-to SHTF weapon, my Saigas are.

+1

 

I have an LMT and Noveski AR (Which are very good as far as ARs go), but if the SHTF I'm taking my Saiga - not the ARs.

 

Of course most of the above points concern a Saiga rifle vs an AR. Imo the purchase of a Saiga 12 should be a no-brainer. There is no firearm more versatile at <~50 yards than a 12 gauge shotgun, whether you're hunting birds, hogs, deer, or the most dangerous game. And there is no better tactical shotgun available to American citizens than the Saiga 12. 12 gauge shells are also more plentiful and generally cheaper than the above rifle calibers, so you can go practice for less $ and more easily afford to stock up on some nice rifled slugs and big ol buckshot.

Only problem with taking an S12 as a go gun is the bulk and weight of the ammo. Plus limited range. And I'd rather not have to hump that through the bush. For those reasons, 5.56 is my caliber of choice. To give it extra punch, I'll only be taking the M855 SS109 variety of 5.56 ammo.

 

7.62 would be ideal if it wasn't so heavy and bulky compared to 5.56. Of course, I'm a girl too so take that for what it's worth... Men have bigger muscles to carry that shit. lol.

+1. Also consider the amount of ammo that you can carry in 5.56mm. Sometimes you need capacity as well as range. I will go so far as to say that if the SHTF it might be good to have both. The Saiga would be good for hunting and crowd control and the AR would be good for greater standoff distances.

[hobbyshooter 59]

Where I live there is no bush. If shtf I'll be in the middle of a mob.

[Crusader 64]

Where I live there is no bush. If shtf I'll be in the middle of a mob.

Saiga is good to about 100m. After that you will need a AR, even in a heavy urban environment.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Crusader

[hobbyshooter 59]

Where I live there is no bush. If shtf I'll be in the middle of a mob.

Saiga is good to about 100m. After that you will need a AR, even in a heavy urban environment.

My thinking is that if they are that far away they aren't a threat (to me anyway). And if they are a threat to someone else I'm not likely going to be able to properly judge the situation to take action.

 

I did recently purchase a .223 Saiga though. Hoping to get into some 3 gun matches. ARs are nice, but for the same price (if not less) I've got a .223, all the conversion parts, 3 surefire mags and 1k rnds ammo (albeit wolf).

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

IMO it is all what your intended use is as many have said. Home Defense = 12 gauge to me SHTF = 5.56x45 and 7.62x51

 

My intended purpose has been to own weapons that I like first and foremost. An array of platforms is available for hunting, self-defense, home-defense, SHTF/The End of the World, Competition, Leisure Shooting and so on. Pick what you want most for your first and get the best you can. Then practice and enjoy. The "enjoy" part is forgotten too often IMO in the question of what to get.

 

1911

Edited April 29, 2009 by 1911

[brvt1000 2]

Just a thought, but why not buy the Saiga now and buy a quality AR lower to finish later on? I would think you could buy the Saiga 12 since you cannot build one at this time, and if they do get banned you will have one. If you buy the AR lower, you will have the registered part of the gun and you can put it together (which is STUPID easy) after everything calms down in the gun industry.

 

I agree the AK/ Saiga platform is very good and would make a great rifle, but if you are anything like me... you have to have an AR. They are just to dang cool not to.

[MRboost 0]

I shoot my AR dirty all the time and it runs just fine. It's made to go bang in pretty much any condition, so I'm not sure why some guys say they have to be clean?

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

Good magazines play the most important role for either platform.

 

I look at the Surefire 12 rounder as a novelty that I can always change to functionality later. The OEM factory 5 rounders have never failed me with any load. The MDArms is both novelty and functionality (with 2 3/4"). AGP is more of a novelty depending on the load as it is a bit more finicky.

 

 

I don't shoot full auto with my AR15 (because it doesn't have a selector!!!) and quick mag dumping in any system will bring out the inherent faults.

 

AK's jam too!

 

While a piston system is more forgiving, a dirty rifle is unacceptable in any dangerous or life threatening situation. Full auto or rapid fire and blanks dirty your rifle faster than anything. Unless you are needing to lay suppressive fire, then full auto is again a novelty! If full auto was really necessary for a dense horde of threatening ______'s, a short barreled shotgun with 10 rounds and a large spread pattern of 00 Buckshot would still be more effective.

[Bounce12 407]

The black gun is sexy and all that, but for ANY kind of personal defense weapon, the Saiga-12 wins hands-down.

 

Until we're at war, it's tough to claim "personal defense" as a reason for shooting someone over about 20 feet away.

 

The wide variety of ammo, the wide variety of uses and the devastating firepower of the 12 gauge (especially with slugs in the 10-round mags or the 20-round drum) makes it my first choice.

 

The .223 isn't even a hunting round although it does a good job with varmints and what not.

 

My firearm of choice in most circumstances is the S-12.

[RABIDFOX50 6]

You need to have both given the vast gulf of difference between the two. I have been building AR15s for close to 20 years now and I love them. Despite the AR15 haters, I have had nothing but good performance from the AR platform weather it be clean or dirty. As to the AK47 family of weapons, I have nothing but respect for it. I have a few AKs and all work 100%.

 

I was introduced to the Saiga12 a while ago and have been obsessed with it since. Now that I have one I am very happy with it. Apples and oranges yes, fun factor, well, the Saiga is full of WIN in that department. Since getting the S12, I haven't touched my Remington 870, 11-87 or my Browning shottys.

 

Get the Saiga 12 first, then get a good branded AR15. I suggest Colt, LMT, Sabre, CMMG or Bushmaster. I have then all and they are good choices.

 

 

ETA: Now if you have the $$$, go for the MASADA!

Edited April 29, 2009 by RABIDFOX50