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Hey guys, I was looking at some stats for the .40 and .45 rounds. On paper, the .40 round delivers more impact energy. It's got a higher velocity with only nominally less mass. The .40 definitely has greater penetration power and if you're packing fmj rounds, you will definitely shoot the perp in front of you and whoever is unfortunate enough to be behind him/her too. The .45 will just hit the perp and deposit all of its impact energy on the one target. FMJ .40 rounds are not armor piercing by nature. They will penetrate clothing and soft barriers more effectively than a .45 but if someone's wearing body armor, chances are, the .40 won't do the job. This is coming directly from a friend of mine who's a local cop. The reason for the change of most local police forces to a .40 was basically the round was capable of delivering more impact power thus more stopping power. There is a fear though of over-penetration.

 

Personally, I wouldn't want to have to worry about shooting through my target. If I have to pull the trigger on someone, I'd rather know that I won't have to worry about the person behind them. I live in an apartment building and the last thing I need is to accidentally shoot my neighbour through a perp as he comes out to see what's the problem.

 

The .45 was THE round of choice for the US military for their sidearms for a long long time. It was also THE round of choice for many LEOs for a long long time. My buddy, while carrying a .40 on duty, carries a Kimber Compact .45 when off duty. He prefers the .45ACP.

 

I prefer it too despite the distinct advantage in velocity, penetration and impact power the .40 has over the .45. Maybe I'm old fashioned. Maybe I'm biased by my buddy. I dunno but I've shot the .40 and the .45 and I just like the .45 better.

 

Btw Bvamp, regarding your example of the 3/4 plywood poppers... imagine those perps. Now, would you rather just shoot through them or would you rather throw them? Granted, a .45 round won't actually throw a human being but I think you get the idea.

 

Remember, the idea in self defense shooting is to shoot to stop the danger. Not shoot to kill. If the perp dies in the process, fine with me but if and when I pull the trigger on someone, it's going to be to defend my life or the life of my loved ones and within the limits of the law. I know for sure that a double tap from my .45 will put most attackers down. I'm pretty sure the .40 will do that too but then again, the .40 might just shoot right through and not deposit enough impact energy to stop the perp...

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10mm definately has more power and I would say a bit more range. The .45 is NOT legal for deer where I am, MN.

 

Forget the glock and buy a kimber.

From somebody that owns both a Kimber and Glock, I would have to respectfully dissagree with you there... the Kimber is a GREAT gun for target practice as well as competition (what I use mine for sometimes), but if you really REALLY want a gun you and risk your life with and depend on, Glock is really the way to go... I have seen way too many 1911's fail in competition to risk my life with one. I rarely see Glocks fail.

 

Now, this is my opinion from my own personal observations... I love my Kimber TLE RL II, but still carry a Glock every day...

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Ill make up a jello jug and pop it with a .40 s+w FMJ round. Im curious now myself what it will do to a organic body. Im thinking it will pop like a balloon, but if not, hey, thats fine. Id expect the same out of a 10mm as well, as the .40s+w is just the 10mm shortened for police carry situations. I prefer the penetration aspect of the round anyway. I have a large 5" piece of maple I cut off of a stump that I want to try the .40 on as well before I take it apart with my AK as well. I'll post pics when I get the time to go try it out.

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Glocks dont just fail , they blow up.

gunzone.com has alot of documentation

Don't rely too much on the "facts" from Gun Zone.. the dude has a bitter distaste for Glocks and it shows. There are facts there, but the facts that AREN'T there conveniently are the facts that Glocks don't KB any more than any other gun (possibly slightly less)... The facts are (from MANY reports from Glock as well as other manufacturers), you have a 1 in 10,000,000 chance of a Glock or ANY OTHER GUN to KB. There are just more Glocks out there than any other gun... thus they get more attention and APPEAR to be KB'ing more. They aren't.

 

So, basically, even though the Gun Zone can lay back and say "these are the facts"... they really aren't the facts... They are definately slanted toward the "sky is falling" side of the facts... not the truth.

 

So, no, Glocks don't blow up any more than any other gun does.

Edited by Wicked96SS
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Umm, ok. I have many friends with Glocks who swear by them. I know personally that two of those Glocks have had nearly 5k rounds through them and they've eaten whatever they've been fed. No jams, no misfeeds, nothing. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of Glocks. If I were going to buy a plastic gun, I'd go for an H&K USP. I can say though that those things take a beating and keep on functioning. One of my buddies actually tried running over his Glock 19 with his pickup truck, which had about 1/2 ton of concrete in the bed... he backed up over it then rolled forward over it. Then he picked it up and shot. It functioned fine. Pretty impressive. I've never ever seen a Glock blow up. If it does, I'd say there was a problem with the cartridge. Of course, I've never seen any gun blow up with my own eyes before.

 

As for a bullet shooting through its target being a waste of energy, it is. That's where the problem really lies. The military and LEO are still struggling to find that perfect formula for a round that will penetrate body armour and be effective but not shoot through an unarmoured target and waste its energy. There have been experimental rounds that can shoot through hard targets but expand like a hollowpoint against a soft target... but they're only experimental.

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I can recommend the HK USP...I'm a big fan of german guns and therefore a fan of the 9mm round, but for concealed carry I say the .45 is best. Practice with wolf, carry HydroShock....that's the way to go! The full size usp is a bit big for carry, I like the compact alot. Got 8+1 in .45 and I can carry SOB, vertical shoulder, in the front waist band, wherever. But the compact seems to cost more ?!

 

The glock 21, is about the size of the full size USP and either gun can get preban mags. I know my friend got a 13rd mag at the last Knob Creek show. He now carries the Glock 21 w/15+1 (13rd preban 45 mag w/ +2 ext) as well as two 10 rd mags in a shoulder holster. Now that would hold out for a while!

 

My CCW instructor tortured his 9mm glock. Left it in a creek over night, barried it in sand at the beach while on vacation, froze it, etc. During our class he even tied a string to it and dipped it in a nearby pond just to show how dependable it was. He wanted a challenger to do the same but I declined (I had a brand new HK USP Comp Stainless).

 

As for the .40 ....I saw a show on history channel which explained that the police moved from the .38 revolver to 9mm, but needed stopping power without the recoil (or hesitation due to the fear of recoil) that the .45 offered. So they went with the .40.

 

Also, I see alot of deals on .40 ammo. Guess companies that mfg for LE are trying to market to civilians too.

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i must say that i never ment the 9mm glocks, its only the 45s that are haveing problems mostly from unsupported chambers

Show me the facts about this... before you go around saying something like that and presenting it as fact, please be sure you research it, at least a little bit. You will find the KB's between the 9mm (also unsupported chambers) and .45 ACP and 10mm and everything are about the same... FOR ALL FIREARMS... not just Glocks...

 

If you thought about it a little, you would realize that the .45 ACP round has MUCH LESS pressure than a 9mm, yet both have unsupported chambers, and both are equally (percentage wise) unsupported...

 

I am sorry to get worked up about this, I just don't like untruths being spread, and represented as "Fact"... Also, if you are going to spread untruths, be sure to spread the CORRECT untruth... it's the .40 S&W Glocks that everybody "thinks" KB all the time (actual facts, they dont' KB any more than any other .40 S&W gun out there).

Edited by Wicked96SS
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actually the reliability of the 1911 is due to the very strong ejector. the rounds dont actually seat into the head of the chamber...its the ejector holding the round in place that makes it not malfunction. at least on the old govt. issue pistols. dont know about glocks or whatever. just my 2 cents on that.

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In 2001 I went to South Africa. I had the ability to carry a concealed handgun while in country. I had finished tweaking my Colt Commander .45 for the trip when I found a deal on a Colt Delta Elite that a friend of mine had carry comped for a customer. I carried the 10mm. With the carry comp it was the same size as a 5" Gov't Model and kicked like a 5" gun with .45 hardball. I was thinking if I had to deal with an AK armed terr at 100m I was a lot better off with the 10mm than a .45. I took 4 spare mags and 200 rounds of Winchester Silvertips so I wasn't worried about ammo supply. I carry a .45 almost everyday. The 10mm is for those days that unique circumstances are expected.

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.45 is nice, 10mm is awesome. I read an FBI report which pretty much stated that overpenetration is grossly blown out of proportion, in a gun battle you're likely going to have misses anyways, not each and every shot that goes out is a body shot.

 

Glocks may be good weapons, but I wouldn't carry one around.

 

I just don't feel they are safe with a round in the chamber, I'm always dead afraid the trigger will get caught during reholstering and go "bang" right into my leg. I hear that's not uncommon with both glock and hk pistols.

 

My conceal/carry candidates:

 

Glock 20 (1st gen)

Witness 10mm wonder finish, also with .40s&w barrel

Colt 1991a1

 

The Glock 20 is a fine pistol, I'd be very happy carrying non concealed in a very secured manner. For weight reasons I'd prefer carrying this for hiking/backpacking. The safety system is weak, it's too easy for people who don't know weapons to fire it, especially if some idiot might grab it. Oh yes, this pistol KB'd on me, I was using some ammo I bought at a gun range that was loaded too hot, blew the mag right out the bottom of the pistol. Thankfully only the mag catch had to be replaced.

 

The Witness has the sweetest trigger I've ever felt on a pistol, right out of the box. I'm extremely happy with this purchase, I want to buy a holster from HBE Leatherworks to start carrying this one. I've had feed problems with the .40 barrel, I don't recall having very many with 10mm, but I fire way more .40 because of cost. Controls seem very safe, It's great the action can be worked while the safety is on. Also a double action mode, don't care much about that though. The Wonder Finish is awesome, this thing is a substantial hunk of steel.

 

The colt, I did a trigger replacment on it myself and nothing else. Can't really hit much with it, I really dont' want to sink another $500 into it to actually make it a nice weapon. This is one safe weapon, I feel comfortable knowing it's about impossible for this thing to go off as long as the safety is engaged. I did catch the safety on something and flipped it off accidentally. I think I must have bumped into something just perfectly wrong.... This is the pistol I've been carrying...

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Thanks for the replies guys... I have decided to go with the G21. 10mm are just harder to find and if the end of the world happens someday... there would be more .45 rounds lying around. Hehe... anyway... I might be thinking that the g21 is a bit too big... so I was contemplating getting a G30... if the 21 is comfortable enough then I'll just get that. Thanks for your help peeps.

 

Any 10mm round is awesome, but .45's have more variety and they are easier to find. I hope the G21 is small enough to be carried comfortably.

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I just don't feel they are safe with a round in the chamber, I'm always dead afraid the trigger will get caught during reholstering and go "bang" right into my leg. I hear that's not uncommon with both glock and hk pistols.

This mostly happens with LEOs who seem to holster with their fingers on the trigger. A big no-no anyway. The real question is, do you feel any less safe with a Glock than a loaded revolver? Both lack safties, one has an external hammer the other doesn't. If you're worried about the stock 5 1/2lb trigger on a Glock, a simple spring change can take it up and over 12lbs.

 

10mm is definately a wonderful round. Plenty of people still make ammo for it, but the 'full power' loads of old are hard to find. Most common 10mm loads are .40 S&W power. Double Tap ammo has a website where you can order his ammo, the real full power stuff. His loads let you use your Glock or other 10mm for anything ranging from criminal penetrating to deer hunting.

 

165gr 1400fps

220gr 1125fps

(Velocities are from a standard length Glock 20 barrel.)

 

http://www.doubletapammo.com/

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Guest AKRafter

I love being able to read all the responses to thia topic, I live in Alaska, and for us a good firearm can save your life. I need a good solid handgun to withstand my line of work, Im a river guide. The animals we deal with up here are a might bigger than most of the varmits you deal with down there in those lower 48. A 45 is great if you are dealing with a cub, but if you come across a mother grizzly she will swat that round right back at you like its a racket ball. I cary a g20 10mm, and it definetly carries the punch I need, also because of the location and demand I suppose we have a little more availability to specific caliber of rounds, I always have 10mm rounds in abundance at my local gunshop. I hope this is helpful to somebody.

 

PS- I like the .40 and .45 too.

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I agree that the G20 would be a better choice against a Grizzly... but let's face it... 99% of the world doesn't have to deal with that problem, and even with Mike McNetts most powerful 10mm loads (all other commercial ammo is weak in comparison... most 10mm loads out there are just slightly warmer than .40 S&W), against a Grizzly, you are woefully unprepared.

 

A .500 S&W Magnum might be a better choice, and prey that you hit with the first round, because follow up shots are a b*tch!

 

A better choice would be a rifle of some sort... a .308 would be nice, but a .300 Win Mag would be better... heck, a .458 is even better... a .50 BMG would be your best bet!!

 

99.9% of the reason most poeple carry a pistol (self defense), a .45 is more than enough... heck, for that matter, since shot placement is so much more important than muzzle energy, I feel 100% confident carrying a 9mm... but, I shoot the .45 ACP better, therfor that is what I carry.

 

Anyhow, great choice.. G21 is a fantastic gun!

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I am still impressed by a flick I saw in bootcamp. WW1 silent flicker. The CPO showed it first day of .45 class. 2 germans with k98 and fixed bayonnets came charging over a berm. G.I. pulls .45 . 2 quick shots. 2 germans knocked back off of their feet. Forward motion completly stopped. Germans completly dead. Camera shows close up of dead germans. Entry holes fingertip sized. G.I. rolls bodies over-exit wounds fist sized. The chief said that .45 was origionally a calvary weapon. It is designed to transfer the maximum energy possible. The idea was to knock a man off of a horse. It is just a coincidence that transferred energy is what causes massive trauma(killing power).

 

G O B

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I am still impressed by a flick I saw in bootcamp. WW1 silent flicker. The CPO showed it first day of .45 class. 2 germans with k98 and fixed bayonnets came charging over a berm. G.I. pulls .45 . 2 quick shots. 2 germans knocked back off of their feet. Forward motion completly stopped. Germans completly dead. Camera shows close up of dead germans. Entry holes fingertip sized. G.I. rolls bodies over-exit wounds fist sized. The chief said that .45 was origionally a calvary weapon. It is designed to transfer the maximum energy possible. The idea was to knock a man off of a horse. It is just a coincidence that transferred energy is what causes massive trauma(killing power).

 

G O B

Hmmm.... I handgun of any caliber (excluding the .500 S&W possibly) does NOT have the power to stop a running man in it's track. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't even knock a person standing still down unless they are off balance and going to fall anyhow, or got hit in the head and were killed immediately. I would like to see this video, but I believe that "knockdown" power is a myth... and the physics of it side with me.

 

The most common cause of death from a pistol of any caliber is bleeding to death. Lost of statistics out there that back this up, I forget the name, but there is a medical ballistics book (I have it at home, will post the name and where to get it later) that talks about that. What is important in a pistol would is the temporary wound channel that is created by the bullet. This temporary wound channel is what starts the person bleeding, as well as what keeps them bleeding, and also deteremines how much they bleed. What makes the .45 ACP a "good" defensive round is the fact it is a heavy bullet, when it hits, has the potential of creating a large temporary wound channel, and a large permanant wound channel, both things good for making somebody bleed to death.

 

What it does NOT have is the energy to be able to knock somebody off thier feet... think about it, the amount of force you feel when you fire the bullet is the SAME force that they feel when they get hit, just over a much smaller area, so, if you didn't get knocked over firing the bullet, they probably won't get knocked over getting hit by it. Again, there is some multiplication going on there, as you have a much wider area to absorb the recoil, and a spring, but trust me, there really isn't much different. Plus, it has been recorded over and over again that people that get shot in a stressful situation will not even know it until they either bleed to death or die... again, not always but it happens a lot!

 

I just crhonoed some 200 grain .45 ACP +P rounds at the range, average velocity was 1010 fps, wich gives a total of about 453 ft-lbs of force... sounds like a lot doesn't it? Not really... there are a lot of .40 S&W with better energy, and you can get close to 1000 ft-lbs with 10mm (if you are nuts enough to load it that high).... and the S&W .500 had 2600 ft-lbs of energy... and I would bet that not one of those rounds would knock a man down that was running at me unless they were killed instantly (shock from the .500 S&W might do it)... and then they wouldn't fall backwards, they would still keep coming and fall forward.

 

Okay, off my soapbox... thanks for listening!

 

EDITED TO SAY: Here is a very informative website, although I would not take them as gospel, they have a lot of really great resources on the subjects of firearm wounds...

 

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

Edited by Wicked96SS
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Wicked 96 -The flick was from U.S. Army WW1. I saw it at Great Lakes in !970, as part of 1911 class. The Germans weren't knocked backwards-it looked like their upper body rotated backward from the hip,legs just buckled. They landed on their backs where they were hit. However there was NO forward motion.

The TRANSFERED energy is what is important. If a round has 400 fp of energy when it strikes , the transfered energy is the energy at point of impact minus the energy that the round retains upon exit. The perfect round would NOT leave an exit wound. To stop a 200lb man you only need to transfer 100lb of energy to the upper body to cancell 100lb at the lower body. Momentum cancelled.

There are many other factors in the real world,otherwise the .58 cal Brittish bulldog would rule!

 

G O B

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I would have to see the video, but I can almost guarantee you that if a .45 ACP stopped the momentum of a moving person, it was fake.... The phyisics just do not support this.

 

Remember, the amount of energy being transfered is the same as the energy you feel against your hand when you shoot the gun... did it knock you over when you shot it? How about even move you back a little? (if it did, you need to work on your stance!) Then it won't knock them over when they get hit... the bullet does not pick up energy as it goes through the air.

 

The only way that would happen is if you hit them in the head, and they died immediately, and the twitching of the body caused them to contort strangely... but that has very little to do with the bullet itself.

 

You are right, however, that a good defensive round is designed not to leave the body, the reason for this, however, is not entirely because of the transfer of energy, the reason for expandable hollow points is to create a larger temporary (and permanant for that matter) would cavity.

 

Bleeding is what kills people when getting shot, not the impact of the round... for the most part, excluding head shots. And I am talking mostly about pistols here...

 

All the symantics aside, we can both agree full heartedly that it would really really suck to get hit by a .45 ACP round!!!

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This mostly happens with LEOs who seem to holster with their fingers on the trigger. A big no-no anyway. The real question is, do you feel any less safe with a Glock than a loaded revolver? Both lack safties, one has an external hammer the other doesn't. If you're worried about the stock 5 1/2lb trigger on a Glock, a simple spring change can take it up and over 12lbs.

Umm...compared to the safety systems (not plural == more than one) on a 1911, CZ75 or even a springfield XD I'd definitely say the glock comes up wanting.

 

No brainer there. And how many people today actually carry a revolver as their primary CCW? Maybe as a backup, but not primary.

 

:killer:

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Personally, I will not carry a 1911 (varient) or CZ or any gun that has external safeties or grip safeties... I carry a Glock every day because it does NOT have all that stuff to get in your way when you really need it.

 

A glock WILL NOT go off unless you pull the trigger.... I feel 100% secure with a loaded glock in a holster.

 

Just my personal opinion: Best safety you have in between your ears, follow the basic NRA rules of firearm handling, and you should be fine.

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