Results: 19" versus 8" shot spread with flite control cup

[GPalmer 1]

One of those questions which came up some time ago on the forum was the question of spread in a 19" Saiga-12 versus an 8" SBS. This question interested me so I grabbed some shells and went down to the range and tested.

 

Method:

Only one round was used for this part of the comparison. The Federal LE127 round. This is a 9 pellet, full power, OO buckshot loading using the Flite Control shot cup with a nominal muzzle velocity of 1325 fps according to the manufacturer.

 

Targets where not all holes from the buckshot were visible were reshot if I noticed them, if not, it was assumed that multiple shot had passed through the existing holes. Strike areas from the flite control cup were ignored.

 

Each target was shot once.

 

Tests at 7 yards showed that the shot from both the 8" SBS and the 19" barrel were still pretty well contained in the flight cup so this distance was ignored.

 

10 targets were shot for each shotgun at a range of 15 yards. Technically the 19" barrel was closer to the target by roughly a foot since my firing position was the same each time.

 

Originally the plan was to test spread at 25 yards also but my RAK-12 lost its charging handle during the course of fire at the 15 yard line so this testing was postponed until Red Jacket fixes the bolt.

 

Guns used were my Atlantic Firearms / Red Jacket Firearms 19" RAK-12 fitted with a Tromix shark brake and my Tromix 8" S-17 fitted with a Tromix flash hider.

 

Distances measured on each target were the horizontal spread, the vertical spread and the overall spread. All measurements were center to center on shot holes. Horizontal measurements were taken between the widest shot holes horizontally, vertical were taken between the two widest vertically and total spread was measured between the two furthest shot holes in the pattern.

 

Results for 19" barrel RAK-12
Horiz.    Vert.    Max
5 1/2"    6"       6 1/2"
2"        2"       2 1/4"
2"        1 3/4"   2 1/2"
4 1/2"    4 1/2"   5 3/4"
2 1/4"    1 3/4"   2 1/4"
6"        6 1/4"   6 1/4"
6 1/4"    3 1/4"   6 3/4"
3 1/2"    2 1/2"   3 1/2"
2"        4 1/2"   4 3/4"
6"        2 1/4"   6 1/4"
Average
4"        3.475"   4.675"

Results with 8" Tromix SBS
Horiz.    Vert.    Max
6 1/2"    6"       9 1/4"
9 1/2"    5 3/4"   10 3/4"
3 1/2"    8 3/4"   9"
6 1/2"    5 1/4"   7"
3 3/4"    5 1/4"   5 1/2"
4 1/4"    6 1/4"   6 3/8"
4 1/8"    2 3/4"   4"
3 1/2"    3 1/2"   4 1/8"
6 3/4"    3 3/4"   6 3/4"
3 1/4"    10 1/8"  10 1/4"
Average
5.16"     5.74"    7.3"

[Shep 0]

Cool. Thanks for the testing and posting your results!

[hobbyshooter 59]

I'd like to see this test with some standard nobel sport 4 buck.

[GPalmer 1]

Cool. Thanks for the testing and posting your results!

You're welcome! And thanks for posting so I know at least someone cares.

 

I still have a NIB stock Saiga 12, with the 19" barrel. I thought about it last night and I'm going to break it out and take my other Tromix down to the range and get some results from them also. I've heard a lot of misconceptions over the years about the spread from the various length barrels. The issue of 19" versus 8" came up a while back and even the experts here didn't really know how they compared with the flite control cups.

 

I also have 500 rounds of the 8 pellet reduced recoil load, and I think some of the full power 8 pellet. In the past, I've found that the 8 pellet reduced recoil consistently pattern the best for me, though that was using Speer lawman. It appears that the Federal 8 pellet load should be the same stuff but I still have to give it a try. I'm willing to burn the Federal but I'm really low on the Lawman and it's my go to load so no testing with that.

 

I have to tell you though, it's amazing what a zoo the range becomes when you pull out a Tromix and pop in a 20 round drum. I even had the cutest girl at the range follow me out and strike up a conversation!

[GPalmer 1]

I'd like to see this test with some standard nobel sport 4 buck.

Well, I have some Winchester buck shot around I can run through but it'll be at shorter ranges than this. That flite control cup makes a big difference. If I can get the funds together I'd be glad to try the Nobel though. I've heard good impressions from users and as I remember, the pricing is very attractive.

 

I really wish this range had a 10 yard range marked. It's continuous live fire though and only has 3 yard, 7 yard, 15 yard and 25 yard ranges marked. The reason I mention that is my guess is that the Nobel would really be hitting its stride there. I'm not sure I can capture it with the ranges I have.

[Paladin 37]

Thanks for posting you testing. I'm planning a SBS myself.

 

I'd love to see the spread at 25yds. At 15yds the average difference in max spread is only 2.7"?

 

With COM being roughly 18"x24", this means there's little loss of hit power. At 25yds I wonder how many pellets would actually impact on the COM zone?

 

I would surmise that 25yds would be the practical limit with 00 and a 8" SBS. Am I wrong?

[BobAsh 582]

I would surmise that 25yds would be the practical limit with 00 and a 8" SBS. Am I wrong?

 

Depends on what you think is the max-sized practicale pattern. This is about 8" @ 25 yards...

 

 

Considering that those balls are about .32, there's probably some more usable range in it. Practically speaking though the 8" is really a QCB gun best suited for breaching and clearing.

 

So Glocker, the basic result of your test (thanks, BTW very interesting) is that at 15 yards, the 19" gun only patterns about 1-1/8" tighter than the 8".

Edited May 3, 2009 by BobAsh

[GPalmer 1]

I will definitely be doing the 25 yard tests. My Tromix have modified bolts but breaking the stock gun out will let me complete these tests with the longer barrels on both the stock and RAK-12. If the reduced recoil patterns like the Speer lawman does, which I believe it will, I think you're going to see roughly these same numbers at 25 yards using it so I personally would use it at 25 yards.

 

What I've seen in the past was that the Speer lawman punches clean circular holes through the paper at 7 yards. These holes were more haggled so I think the shot was coming out of the cup right around the 7 yard point. This was with the SBS. So if the shot spreads 5" inch in the 8 yards between the 7 and 15 yard marks, I would expect a bit more in the 10 yards from 15 to 25 yard marks. That would lead me to expect you'd be seeing an average somewhere around a foot at 25 yards. But look at the max spreads here. There were a couple patterns as large as 10-11" at 15 yards. That would suggest to me that we would see almost 2 foot at 25 yards with this load. I am in a residential area where I live. To me a 2' pattern is to large for me to take the shot and feel good about it. I personally would judge the likelihood of stray pellets too high. If I were in a rural area where I was less concerned about stray pellets I would feel pretty good about the spread at 25 yards. The pellets would definitely put a hurting on the target at that range, it's mostly a matter of collateral damage to consider.

[GPalmer 1]

Considering that those balls are about .32, there's probably some more usable range in it. Practically speaking though the 8" is really a QCB gun best suited for breaching and clearing.

 

So Glocker, the basic result of your test (thanks, BTW very interesting) is that at 15 yards, the 19" gun only patterns about 1-1/8" tighter than the 8".

Hey Bob, I've gotten results very similar to those you posted previously with the Speer lawman though I was firing them through my RAK-12 at the time. I would tend to think of that as something less than a 50% increase in spread from the point the flite control cup released the pellets rather than an absolute number. The reason for that is I believe that the SBS is probably releasing the pellets earlier. If that is the case, then the spread should proportinally increase more from the long barrel than the SBS. I think what is happening will become clearer when I get the results at 25 yards up. It is probably more useful though to just consider the absolute spread if you're only using it inside the 15 yard mark.

[hobbyshooter 59]

To me a 2' pattern is to large for me to take the shot and feel good about it. I personally would judge the likelihood of stray pellets too high. If I were in a rural area where I was less concerned about stray pellets I would feel pretty good about the spread at 25 yards. The pellets would definitely put a hurting on the target at that range, it's mostly a matter of collateral damage to consider.

 

 

That's a good point. The 2 things I like about nobel sport 4 buck is the price and it should have less penetration than 00. I figure if I take a shot inside my house it's less likely to go through 2 exterior walls and injure a neighbor.

 

It would be interesting to see what affect a polychoke has on 4 buck from both a 19" gun & a 8" gun.

 

Thanks for the data you've provided. I don't mean to throw a list of things to try at you, I'm just thinking out loud.

 

I wanted to do the polychoke 4 buck nobel sport test through my 19" gun but the range officer was glued to me when he saw the gun and told me never to shoot anything but bird shot at their range. Last time I was there just to function test a new 19" 3 hole gun a different ranger told me not to shoot it any further than 7 yards from the target!

 

I guess some people have destroyed targets there and it pissed off the rangers.

[sunnybean 939]

Great! Thanks for posting. Not what I was expecting...and that's good. Can't wait to see the results from 25 yrds.

[Paladin 37]

I've seen your test spread before Bob, I had forgotten that it was at 25yds.

 

Right now I'm planning on a 10"-12" barrel and then thread and put my polychoke back on. The PC adds about 2.25".

 

My intention is breaching, room clearing, and CQC. I'm guessing that with the PC on there I could have my cake and eat it too.

 

Have a handy CQC shotgun that can still reach out 30-40yds (?)

[Juggernaut 11,054]

I would surmise that 25yds would be the practical limit with 00 and a 8" SBS. Am I wrong?

 

Depends on what you think is the max-sized practicale pattern. This is about 8" @ 25 yards...

 

 

Considering that those balls are about .32, there's probably some more usable range in it. Practically speaking though the 8" is really a QCB gun best suited for breaching and clearing.

 

So Glocker, the basic result of your test (thanks, BTW very interesting) is that at 15 yards, the 19" gun only patterns about 1-1/8" tighter than the 8".

 

 

you get that of the side of my house, Bob???

[GPalmer 1]

Well, I did a quick test with the Winchester Super X 2 3/4" 00 buck today in a SBS. Wow, what a difference! I fired one round at three yards which got me a 4 1/2" spread and a round at 7 yards which got me a 10 1/2" spread. That was about all I needed to know...

 

All kidding around aside though, that round in the SBS is way too wide for my tastes. It isn't bad out of the 19" barrel though for short distances.

[bcelliott 6]

Glocker, I'd be interested to see a direct comparison between the Federal tactical (LE-132) low velocity flite-control buck and the standard (LE-127) high velocity flite-control buck. I wonder if the velocity makes a difference...

[cscharlie 107]

Glocker, I'd be interested to see a direct comparison between the Federal tactical (LE-132) low velocity flite-control buck and the standard (LE-127) high velocity flite-control buck. I wonder if the velocity makes a difference...

 

I was thinking the samething.

[GPalmer 1]

Glocker, I'd be interested to see a direct comparison between the Federal tactical (LE-132) low velocity flite-control buck and the standard (LE-127) high velocity flite-control buck. I wonder if the velocity makes a difference...

 

 

Glocker, I'd be interested to see a direct comparison between the Federal tactical (LE-132) low velocity flite-control buck and the standard (LE-127) high velocity flite-control buck. I wonder if the velocity makes a difference...

 

I was thinking the samething.

You gents will be pleased to know it's coming! I have 100 rounds of the LE-132 and 500 of the LE-133 (reduced, 8 pellet) that will be next up after the LE-127. I had 450 rounds of the LE-127 around so I'm working out the kinks with it before proceeding with the LE-132. I need a minimum of 80 rounds to run through these tests with the four Saigas at 15 and 25 yards. I'm going to see if I can find more of the LE-132. I found some of the lanes have markings at 15, 20 and 25 yards and I would love to shoot all three ranges for comparison purposes. I'll see if I can dig up another 100 rounds or so of the LE-132 today so I have enough.

[GPalmer 1]

I think I've found enough stock of the LE-132 thanks to a tip by bcelliot. Thanks for the hand!

Edited May 5, 2009 by Glocker