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Hey, guys, I just joined the forum, but have been lurking for a few days researching the saiga's. I have a few questions before I actually buy one of these.

 

First is one really any better than the other one? You know like the 30 short compared with the 223 or 308. Like accuracy or functionability. Or would a scatter gun be the better way to go? What a delima to face, the same gun in so many choices. I am really leaning toward the 7.62x39 myself.

 

This is my reasoning, if you are going to get an AK or a variant why not stay with the traditional caliber. Two would be recoil, the shotguns and the 308 are intriguing, but I bet they beat the crap out of you, besides I already own a mossberg 500 12 guage. And the 223 seems cool, I always wanted one, but from what I am understanding these are not real accurate weapons. They were designed to function, no matter what, not put an eye out at half a mile. If I wanted a 223 I could get one of those handi rifle single shots by H&R for 50 bucks more. And I know they are accurate. And the ammo is dirt cheap! I am sure you can get 223 and 308 cheap since they are nato rounds, but not that cheap. And if you want you can get decent ammo in 7.62x39 from most manufactures, it just costs more.

 

The .410 looked real cool, that is the gun that caught my eye at the gun store, then I saw the other models (they didn't have the 223 or 308, but I am sure they can get them). They guy at the store, who I have delt with before, said get the rifle vs the shotgun in 410. The 410 shells cost more, and like he said, what are you going to shoot with it, pigeons!? He has a point, with the 30 cal. I could take it up north(live in southern mich. no hunting with rifles) and deer hunt with it if I got the chance. Although from the sound of it my inline muzzle loader is more accruate at longer ranges and probably packs more of a punch.

 

The other question I had was I see some think the 223 is a bit more accurate than the 30 short (that's we call 7.62x39 here). I don't see it being the gun, they are identical in build up. Could it just be that most that have the .30 are using extremely cheap ammo, which most likely doesn't group for dick any way, out of any gun. Maybe the run of the mill 223 ammo is a little better, not to mention it shoots flatter. Most guns are pretty particular about the ammo they shoot well. I don't see why these should be any different. I think if you find the right ammo, they should shoot fairly well. I know they have limitations, I used to have a SKS, but sold it during the Rodney King riots when I lived in CA. Made twice what I paid for it, I miss it though.

 

Basically this gun will just be a toy, everything else I have has a purpose and is suited for a particular task. It's this or a .357 handgun. This will surely be cheaper to shoot. If it groups 1 inch or so at 50 yards I will be happy, that is most likely the range I will shoot it at the most. And I plan on scoping it, or using a red dot of some sort. I already have one, but may get another just for the heck of it.

 

Sorry for the long post, but that's me :haha: . I have other questions, but will ask them later.

 

Paul

 

By they way, great forum, lots of info here.

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Paul Mohr wrote:

First is one really any better than the other one? You know like the 30 short compared with the 223 or 308. Like accuracy or functionability. Or would a scatter gun be the better way to go? What a delima to face, the same gun in so many choices. I am really leaning toward the 7.62x39 myself.

 

If you want to do a lot of shooting, go with the 30 Combloc (7.62x39). You can't reload as cheap as the Russians will sell it ($80/1000 out the door). If you want to be compatible with NATO, go with the .223 version. The Galil, which is a milled AK in 223 has an M16 mag adapter. The same thing could be done with the Saiga, but hasn't been done yet. The 308 version is enough different that it is not quite the same gun, but it is the identical operating platform. I have been told that they have RPK receivers, but have not confirmed this. If you need an all-round gun for hunting big game with shots past 300m, then the 308 is the way to go. But you won't find many hi-cap mags.

 

The shotguns might be an excellent choice for home defense. But if you show up at the local sporting clays club with one, you are guaranteed to get funny looks. For serious social work, I would prefer the one in 30 Combloc because of the availability of the 75 round Romainian drums (I am talking about legally converted guns here). Accuracy between the 30 Combloc and the 223 Rem is probably about the same, although my 223 is slightly more accurate. I hear the 308s are almost always more accurate, but I don't have one to test with.

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I've always heard that the .308 caliber round was superior to the .223 in accuracy and power (that's why I prefer it greatly) This always comes up when I argue the pros and cons of the M16A2 with other soldiers at the range. But the Saiga's could perform differently.

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I've always heard that the .308 caliber round was superior to the .223 in accuracy and power (that's why I prefer it greatly) This always comes up when I argue the pros and cons of the M16A2 with other soldiers at the range. But the Saiga's could perform differently.

Depends on who you talk to. All the National Match winners are using 223s these days.

 

Frankly, I don't think there is a bit of difference between 223 and 308 in terms of 'inherent' accuracy. In fact, I don't believe in 'inherent' accuracy at the cartridge level. It's the human factors which make the difference - that and the launching platform.

 

I got in an argument with Bart Bobbit (a major winner in the NM circuit). He started spouting off all this BS about 'short powder columns' and all that crap. I just told him to head down to Kenny Jarrett's place and try to outshoot Kenny with any caliber he wanted and let Kenny use a 30-06. Kenny is a major benchrest winner. I can guarantee that Kenny will make him look like a beginner. Bart didn't take me up on it. ;)

 

My theory as to why the 223 is so dominant in NM is recoil. Just like the 308 has less recoil than the '06 and came to dominate over the old warrior, the 223 has sigificantly less recoil than the 308. I'm not particularly recoil sensitive, but I can shoot a course of fire (80 rounds) a lot better with a 223 than a 308 or 30-06.

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I know that from a high powered rifle stand point the calibers that are known for being accurate are 223, 243, 22-250, and 270, among some others. And I agree, I don't think any of these catridges are "inherently accurate". There is so much more to it than that. I think they get thier rep from the fact that they shoot very flat. That makes range estimation easier and leads poeple to believe they are more accurate.

 

I have not seen many calibers that can't shoot sub 1 minute groups if loaded correctly and shot out of good gun. Hell, my remington Muzzle loader will shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards (or better) with a 300 grain 44 cal. pistol bullet and a sabot (.50 rifle). The most important thing is finding the right ammo and load for a particular rifle. I will admit that the fit of the gun is important as well as matching the rifleing to the velocity of the bullet, especially at longer ranges.

 

As far as knock down power, there are some variables in that equation too. Two being distance and bullet type. A weapon can make as much energy as it wants, but it doesn't do any good if you can't transfer it to the target. Higher velocity guns do better at longer distances, especially with harder bullets. I would guess if you shot some one, or something at say 50 yards with a 308 and FMJ bullets you would just blow right thru it and transfer little energy. Hit something at maybe 120 yards with a soft point or hollow point that expands well and you may very well knock them on the ground. You transfered more energy causing more trauma.

 

The 308 and 30 russian are two completely different rounds designed to do different things. The average ak variant chambered in the 7.62x39 was meant to be a short to medium range weapon to take out human sized targets. And not really designed to kill them, just take them out of the fight. In war you are not really worried about humane kills or tracking your game. Unlike hunting, you are not really concerned with whether they suffer or not, as long as they don't shoot back. And if takes one or two others to drag them away, better yet. The m M16 in .223 is way under powered to take 200 lb plus game when you look at the ballistics. Heck it is a varmint cartridge, not a big game load.

 

The 308 is more of a longer range load, used mostly for sniper stuff and machine guns. It also generates more recoil. Which would you rather shoot full auto from the shoulder or hip, a .223/7.62x39 or 308 full loads? I will pick the smaller lighter round.

 

Just my opinions any way.

 

I decided to get a 7.62 any way, the 308 cost more, for the gun and the ammo. I don't really intend on hunting with it. It is sort of a piss poor rifle for hunting with. I just wanted a toy, and something that would "bad" in my gun rack if you know what I mean.

 

I am thinking about getting it today, I can't really afford it and should wait 'till after Christmas, but I am impatient .

 

Paul

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The 7.62X39 Russian caliber is ballistically very similar to the 30-30 Winchester. I would not call it a poor caliber to hunt with. The 30-30 has taken more game in this country than any other cartridge. It leads ammunition sales evey year. Since the 7.62 Soviet has similar ballistics the Saiga rifle would make a very nice hunting rifle. I have one setup just for hunting Whitetail deer. I currently own 3 Saigas. The one setup for hunting, another being converted to a 922r complaint 5.45X39 military configuration and a new 7.62 Saiga (Christmas gift from my wife) that will be built to match the 5.45 rifle. It will also be a 922r compliant militarized weapon. I also have a Norinco MAK-90 922r complaint rifle that I just finished. I would not hesitate to shoot game with any of them. The Norinco took a rather bothersome groundhog this past summer at 50 yards offhand, using iron sights!

swon

post-5-1071072585.gif

Edited by swon
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The picture above is what my Saiga AK74 5.45X39 will look like when finished. Below is a picture of an AK-103 that my other Saiga will be built into. Troy Sellars at InRange is handling both builds. My partially converted Saiga from SOG will later also be sent to InRange to have the receiver holes welded up, a US FCG added, and an AK74 muzzle brake installed.

All of the Saigas will have K-VAR US made stock sets, Arsenal US made match grade gas pistons, Red Star Arms adjustable FCG, RPB US made muzzle brakes and Russian military slings.

post-5-1071073141.jpg

Edited by swon
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