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Another gas port question


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#1 billyjoebob

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 07:49 AM

I just picked up my first Saiga-12. It was "born" in November of 2008. The first thing I did after unwrapping it was check the gas ports. It looks like I have three unobstructed ports, all round.

I read through all the threads on gas ports, and there seems to be a discrepancy in the "correct" number to have. I understand that the total gas flow is based on overall port diameter, and two large ports can allow more gas than four small ones.

The question is, how many ports are the newer Saiga's shipping with? I thought it was four "diamond" looking ports, but am also seeing posts from new owners that have three "round" ports. I can't believe that the number would be varying...even on a russian assembly line. There must be a standard design that they are sticking with...for now at least.

Can anyone shed light on this once and for all?

#2 KrisFox

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 08:40 AM

The newer guns are mostly 3 port.

"I can't believe that the number would be varying...even on a russian assembly line."
The variation is from 1 and a half (partially obstructed) to 4 (the four are round ports in a diamond pattern).

The short and sweet is... It's a $250 shotgun manufactured with all the attention to detail of a $250 shotgun.

It only costs $500-$600 here since It can, for well under $1000 total cost, be built to compete with $2500 and up DD shotguns.
Yes it's a $250 shotgun. No, I paid $550 for it. Yes, I did a lot of work to it. Sure, I can build you one just like it for $1500.

#3 Cobra's Custom LLC

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 11:10 AM

The four port guns that were imported by EAA and K-USA had a "diamond" shaped pattern of round holes, not diamond shaped ones.

The 22" full choked version, also imported by the previous importers, had a triangular pattern of three holes. The longer the barrel, the fewer ports that are needed to cycle the bolt, due to the increased back pressure created by the pressurized gasses remaining behind the shot column in the barrel for a slightly longer period of time.

Even with these older models, there was some variance in hole patterns and numbers.

The original Saiga shotgun...the 410..only has one large port, just like the AK rifles it was based on. The first ones did anyway...I'm not sure about the new ones. Mine is the very first model and didn't even have a gas adjustment.

These newer guns, the ones Tony made the "vodka special" comment on one time, and it stuck...lol.....only have two ports. I just fixed one of these the other day for a member here. When I pressed off the GB, I was surprised to find these two ports were not noticeably larger than the ones in my 4 port gun. I've heard some people say that this was a change that Izhmash made on purpose, and those guns came in like that on purpose...not because of a mistake (or too much vodka at break time...lol). I think that's BS. If they do them on purpose, then they were not meant to be put on the American market, hence the warranty repairs... The ammo they use in Russia is more powerful than the weak ass shit we use over here. Those guns were either made that way on purpose, and got mixed up with guns to be exported to the US, or they fucked up and forgot to drill the third hole. That still doesn't explain why there are still '08 guns turning up with 4 ports. Maybe they did screw up and the three holers were supposed to be 24" barrels...

Either way....for the damn gun to work right with standard equipment, and cheap low brass ammo, it needs at least three ports.

It is actually possible to overgas the gun if you make the ports too large, so be careful working on these yourself. On the 2 port gun I fixed the other day, it was not even cycling high brass buckshot, even on the highest setting with gunfixr's gas plug. It would stovepipe every time. With wallyword low brass it would not even completely pull them from the chamber.
Every other trick had been tried before deciding it needed port surgery.....
1. It had the upgraded gas plug
2. It had the upgraded piston, or "puck", from KA
3. It had the FCG polished
4. ...the reduced tension hammer spring
5. ...the bolt and carrier polished
6. ..."the feed ramp mod"
7. It even had the front recoil spring replaced with a lighter one from a 1911

After closer inspection I found why it still didn't work any better, even after all that.
The damn GB was partially covering one of the two holes.

So I took it off and enlarged, and even polished the edges of the main port in the GB. I also angled the holes back slightly more (with a 5/64" bit) to give the gas more pressure directly backwards.
At this point, with all the other mods that had been done, I could have most likely put it all back together and it would have cycled fine. Just to be sure though...I drilled another 5/64" hole just between and to the rear of the existing two (triangle). I angled and polished the rear of the main gas block port, to be sure it was letting all the gas flow efficiently.

Reassembled it all, and test fired it...it made a HUGE difference...
The low brass shells (Federal 3 Dram 7.5 shot) that wouldn't even clear the chamber before, ejected four to six feet out and forward....even on setting two (which is like setting one on a factory shotty). I had to turn it all the way to one (almost no gas) to get them to stovepipe.
With the high brass (Winchester 9 pellet 00 Buck), it had no problem at all cycling and ejecting 6 feet, on the lowest setting (1). But with the gas plug turned up to 2, and 3, it was cycling so fast the shells didn't have time to even clear the ejection port before getting munched by the returning bolt...(see pic at bottom). I am assuming this is the case...since turning the gas adjustment down, instead of up, solved the issue. It munched the high brass on settings 2 and 3 before switching to one (minimum).
If my assumption is correct, this gun is cycling so good now it needs to be turned down some for the high brass or they won't be able to eject fast enough. The lighter recoil spring that was used, trying to help the prior cycling problem, now needs to be taken out and replaced with the heavier factory spring. That will most likely balance things out perfect and the gun won't be over gassed for the recoil spring. If it still has any probs with munching high brass, like 3" turkey loads for example, then the KA piston can be flipped around backwards, or the factory one put back in there, and that will fix it.

Some pics....

First...a three port gun converted to four ports...

Attached File  DSC00395.JPG   78.74KB   51 downloads
Attached File  IMAG0007.JPG   122.65KB   24 downloads



Taking the "Vodka" out of a Vodka Special...lol

Attached File  Vodka_Special_lol.JPG   189.57KB   33 downloads
Attached File  Vodka_Special_2.JPG   101KB   27 downloads
Attached File  Enlarge_GB_Port.JPG   90.08KB   24 downloads
Attached File  Polish_GB_Port.JPG   101.02KB   20 downloads
Attached File  Polish_GB_Port_2.JPG   87.12KB   17 downloads
Attached File  Start_Third_Hole.JPG   69.92KB   20 downloads
Attached File  Drill_Third_Hole.JPG   58.43KB   17 downloads
Attached File  Polish_Barrel_Port_Area.JPG   58.56KB   17 downloads
Attached File  Clean_up_ports_inside___w__bronze_brush_on_drill.JPG   62.67KB   16 downloads
Attached File  Clean_up_2.JPG   76.35KB   11 downloads
Attached File  Clean_Bbl.JPG   49.77KB   15 downloads
Attached File  Un_Vodka.JPG   82.69KB   17 downloads

Munchomatic...
Attached File  Stovepipe_Munch.JPG   68.42KB   15 downloads

imag036.GIF

 

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#4 Wotan1105

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 07:11 AM

Wow nice pics Cobra, thanks




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