imarangemaster 315 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Anyone out there have these? I am incredibly intrigued by them. I have read all the web stuff on it, but wondering if anyone on the board has one. How do you like it compared to an AK? I have an opportunity to pick one up VERY reasonable with mags and goodies. I love my Saiga 7.62x39, but this VZ58 has a strange allure. Also, any Kalifornia shooters have these? DO the have MMGs for them? I live in Illinois, but there is a possibility that I may be living 1/2 and 1/2 in four years (a grandkids thing). My saiga I can MMG it. I was wondering about a VZ58. Hey Desert Dog, do you know of any in Kalifornia? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) What's a Vz58? Edited May 11, 2009 by nalioth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted May 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Haha! I guess I know how you stand on that thought! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) The VZ-58 seems to be a very capable rifle, but I prefer the looks and familiar function of an AK. rangemaster, you don't seem to be able to stick with one rifle for very long, eh? Saiga .223 -> GP WASR 10/63 -> Saiga 7.62x39 and now you're thinking of ditching the Russian 7.62 you've got for a funky Czech gun? It's your decision of course, but if I were you I wouldn't do it. Edited May 11, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted May 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Ooops, just noticed it was a link. Thanks Bernie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) Ooops, just noticed it was a link. Thanks Bernie When I finally got a Vz58, I sold off quite a few of my Kalashnikovs (Guess I was compensating) Here's a pictorial I made on the Vz58, and how it works. It's got a lot of big pix, so dialup folks beware. The VZ-58 seems to be a very capable rifle, but I prefer the looks and familiar function of an AK. Have you actually handled a Vz58? The Vz58's ergonomics blow the Kalashnikov out of the water. Weight? much lighter than any stamped AK, even though the Vz58 has a milled receiver. Folding stock / fixed stock? Designed with both in mind (not a post-design kludge like the EG/RO/PL bolt-on wire stocks), and you can change them in less than 5 minutes with a screw driver. Edited May 11, 2009 by nalioth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted May 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 The VZ-58 seems to be a very capable rifle, but I prefer the looks and familiar function of an AK. rangemaster, you don't seem to be able to stick with one rifle for very long, eh? Saiga .223 -> GP WASR 10/63 -> Saiga 7.62x39 and now you're thinking of ditching the Russian 7.62 you've got for a funky Czech gun? It's your decision of course, but if I were you I wouldn't do it. When I got the 223 Saiga, I really wanted the 7.62 Saiga. Eventually worked up through a 7.62 WASR to a Saiga 7.62. Actually, I am trying to work out a way to keep the Saiga and get the VZ 58. My Saiga just shoots too well! My trouble is that I want both! Maybe I could sell my Underwood USGI.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Hey if you want to pick up a VZ-58 to add to your collection, I can see why. I just wouldn't get rid of the Saiga 7.62 you have now in favor of a VZ-58 to replace it. They do look like cool rifles. If I had the extra cash to pick one up from say, Czechpoint USA I would seriously consider getting one of the folders. But I really don't, so I'm not. Also, keep in mind that aftermarket parts for the VZ-58's, (including the special mags they have to use), are not as common as aftermarket AK parts. There seem to be pros and cons to each rifle when you compare em side by side. Overall I think the AK's better, (longer distance between the irons, better mag release, more durable integrated gas piston etc).. and apparently so do the Russians. You don't see Izhmash cranking out a VZ-58 design for their military, do ya? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cellsworth 21 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Ooops, just noticed it was a link. Thanks Bernie When I finally got a Vz58, I sold off quite a few of my Kalashnikovs (Guess I was compensating) Here's a pictorial I made on the Vz58, and how it works. It's got a lot of big pix, so dialup folks beware. The VZ-58 seems to be a very capable rifle, but I prefer the looks and familiar function of an AK. Have you actually handled a Vz58? The Vz58's ergonomics blow the Kalashnikov out of the water. Weight? much lighter than any stamped AK, even though the Vz58 has a milled receiver. Folding stock / fixed stock? Designed with both in mind (not a post-design kludge like the EG/RO/PL bolt-on wire stocks), and you can change them in less than 5 minutes with a screw driver. I have a VZ58, and I have to agree with Nalioth. However, I like AKs too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Ooops, just noticed it was a link. Thanks Bernie When I finally got a Vz58, I sold off quite a few of my Kalashnikovs (Guess I was compensating) Here's a pictorial I made on the Vz58, and how it works. It's got a lot of big pix, so dialup folks beware. The VZ-58 seems to be a very capable rifle, but I prefer the looks and familiar function of an AK. Have you actually handled a Vz58? The Vz58's ergonomics blow the Kalashnikov out of the water. Weight? much lighter than any stamped AK, even though the Vz58 has a milled receiver. Folding stock / fixed stock? Designed with both in mind (not a post-design kludge like the EG/RO/PL bolt-on wire stocks), and you can change them in less than 5 minutes with a screw driver. No, I haven't actually ever shot or handled a VZ-58. They're definitely less common than AK's, and I just got into the AK game at the end of last year. That said, I don't see how "The Vz58's ergonomics blow the Kalashnikov out of the water." The two rifles are pretty damned similar.. how could the VZ-58's handling really be that much better? Yes, they appear to be lighter.. but honestly my stamped AK is light enough. If the VZ-58's lighter, then I have to suspect that it is also less durable. The VZ-58 doesn't have the battlefield pedigree that the AK does, either. It hasn't been tested in the same range of environments, (from the SE Asian jungles to the deserts of Afghanistan/Iraq etc). So sure, the VZ-58's an interesting gun.. and as I've said, if I had the disposable income I'd probably look into acquiring one. But should it be viewed as superior to the tried and true AK? I don't think so. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) No, I haven't actually ever shot or handled a VZ-58. They're definitely less common than AK's, and I just got into the AK game at the end of last year. That said, I don't see how "The Vz58's ergonomics blow the Kalashnikov out of the water." The two rifles are pretty damned similar.. how could the VZ-58's handling really be that much better? Yes, they appear to be lighter.. but honestly my stamped AK is light enough. If the VZ-58's lighter, then I have to suspect that it is also less durable. The VZ-58 doesn't have the battlefield pedigree that the AK does, either. It hasn't been tested in the same range of environments, (from the SE Asian jungles to the deserts of Afghanistan/Iraq etc). So sure, the VZ-58's an interesting gun.. and as I've said, if I had the disposable income I'd probably look into acquiring one. But should it be viewed as superior to the tried and true AK? I don't think so. Well, look at the pictorial I made and linked to. It shows the ergonomic differences and thoughtful touches the Czechs implemented. Haven't been used in the "SE Asian jungles and the deserts of Afghanisatn/Iraq, etc," huh? Care to wager on that? The Czechs sent thousands of Vz58s to North Vietnam (they were communist brothers, remember?) and the Iraqi National Police are now using them in Iraq. It'll keep up with the Kalashnikov just fine. As far as the Russians using a Czech gun, you'd have to know the history of the region to konw that even if the Czechs came up with the ultimate weapon, the Russians'd tell 'em to stick it where the sun don't shine. Edited May 11, 2009 by nalioth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 ^ Your above link to your pictorial is invalid. I'm sure there probably were some VZ-58's involved in the Vietnam War.. nothing compared to the millions of AK's that were there and proved themselves beyond a shadow of a doubt. Now, how do "The Vz58's ergonomics blow the Kalashnikov out of the water"? I'd think that the handling of the two rifles would be pretty damned similar. Once I learned that the distance between the iron sights on the VZ-58 is 1" less than that of the AK's sights, I saw that as a pretty big con to the Czech gun's design. As we all know, the short distance between the AK's irons is one of the rifle's bigger weaknesses. Further shortening that distance is hardly an improvement, I don't care how you look at it. Ultimately all I'm saying is that I don't agree that the VZ-58's "better" than the AK. It's just different, with some design aspects that could be seen as advantageous, and several that look to be inferior to the AK. And of course the Czech rifle has fewer parts, accessories, and magazines available for it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 ^ Your above link to your pictorial is invalid. Here's a pictorial I made on the Vz58, and how it works. It's got a lot of big pix, so dialup folks beware. Is it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 It was. Now it links me to the M-14 Firing Line Public Forum, which apparently requires that you register an account before you can view anything. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 It was. Now it links me to the M-14 Firing Line Public Forum, which apparently requires that you register an account before you can view anything. Well, crap. I have tried to put the pictorial up on this forum, but this forum software won't allow so many pictures. It seems this pictorial isn't meant to be seen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
U.S. Pratorean 1,234 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) . Edited May 15, 2009 by U.S Praetorian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acercanto 6 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 I'd been wanting a VZ-58 for years, and I finally got one a couple months ago, and I love it!! As a lefty, it's like it was built for us. The safety is right there under your thumb, brass ejects at a higher angle, mag has a LRBHO built in, it's just a better thought out gun, IMHO. Hey US Praetorian, what caliber is that MP5? And where did you get the brake for the VZ? I want to get one for mine, but haven't seen any that would fit. Acer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Hey rangemaster, what is the "VERY reasonable" price you're considering paying for one of these VZ-58's, (with mags and "goodies")? I'm just curious. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 ...VZ-58...it's just a better thought out gun, IMHO. Blasphemy!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 They are a very interesting rifle! I shot one at the range and liked it. I decided that I wanted one, then I did not like the price when then first became available. The best price I saw was about $350, and I should have jumped at it, but I didn't and now they are more then I want to spend. You snooze, you lose. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) ^ I agree. At ~$350 I would buy one. At ~$800+, (what they seem to be selling for now), it ain't happening. Not when I already have an extremely high quality AKM. Edited May 11, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Apologies for the link to a locked down forum, I had no idea they were that way. Here is a web page I just ginned up with the same stuff. Link Previous links have been updated. This pictorial is very picture heavy and will clog a dialup user's connection (and challenge broadband users). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 ^ No challenge for a cable connection. Thanks for all the detailed pics with captions, nalioth. It is most definitely an interesting rifle and I'd love to have the chance to shoot one some time. The design feature I probably like the most is how easy it is to swap a fixed for a side-folding stock. Of course, when it comes to folding rifle stocks, I still prefer the design of the underfolder that AK's utilize. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted May 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 reasonable price= $800 Like new with 5 mags, both folding and fixed stock, bayonet and lug, pouch, cleaning gear, an a short flash hider permanently attached to make it 16". A very tempting price! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 rangemaster, yes that sounds like a pretty nice package. The only thing I don't like is the fact that the flash-hider is permanently attached, but that's a fairly minor gripe, (I don't even really know what other muzzle brake/flash-hider options are out there for a VZ-58). I'd probably be tempted myself, after having the chance to carefully inspect and fire the rifle in question of course. Have you done that yet? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acercanto 6 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Man, I'd jump on that like a German on a chance to be aggressive! I got mine for $800 with 4 mags and a cleaning kit! And I believe they make AR PG adapters, so you could put a monsterman grip on it. Acer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
U.S. Pratorean 1,234 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) . Edited May 15, 2009 by U.S Praetorian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 ...VZ-58...it's just a better thought out gun, IMHO. Blasphemy!! Its a better thought out gun if you like a poor mag catch, a bendable gas piston, and a lot more recoil than the ak platform.... oh wait... those are not desirable features.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 ...VZ-58...it's just a better thought out gun, IMHO. Blasphemy!! Its a better thought out gun if you like a poor mag catch, a bendable gas piston, and a lot more recoil than the ak platform.... oh wait... those are not desirable features.... Was tihs meant as a parody? The only bent Vz58 gas piston I've heard of was from an aftermarket maker who acknowledged he didn't heat treat properly. "More recoil" ? I suggest you look at the vids of the full auto Vz58s. Not sure what you define as "poor" as far as the Vz58 mag catch. The fact that it's 'poor' at catching on things is a plus. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 ...VZ-58...it's just a better thought out gun, IMHO. Blasphemy!! Its a better thought out gun if you like a poor mag catch, a bendable gas piston, and a lot more recoil than the ak platform.... oh wait... those are not desirable features.... Was tihs meant as a parody? The only bent Vz58 gas piston I've heard of was from an aftermarket maker who acknowledged he didn't heat treat properly. "More recoil" ? I suggest you look at the vids of the full auto Vz58s. Not sure what you define as "poor" as far as the Vz58 mag catch. The fact that it's 'poor' at catching on things is a plus. I don't really like the way the gas piston installs, not because it's prone to bending, but because it's not nearly as secure as threading it to the bolt carrier, then pinning in place, the way the AK's is installed. I personally don't see any real advantage to being able to easily seperate the piston itself from the rest of the weapon, (not necessary for cleaning or really anything else). If I'm not mistaken, the VZ-58's piston is secured with a spring? That's a bit of a weak point in my fairly uninformed opinion. From everything I've read the VZ-58 has the same or less recoil than an AK, (not that the AK has significant recoil), so that's a non-factor. I do prefer the AK's mag release lever.. the VZ-58's design goes too far and potentially makes it difficult to release the mag as quickly as you can with the AK's release lever. As I previously mentioned, the most disadvantageous difference between the AK and VZ-58 designs that I can see is the shorter distance between the irons on the VZ-58, which potentially negatively affects accuracy. Anyway, I still think of the two weapons as very comparable, just different.. neither design seems to be clearly "better" than the other.. though the available parts, mags, etc are clearly much more numerous for the AK, which can be seen as an advantage. I'd love to have the chance to really heat up a VZ-58 at the range.. then I'd have a much more concrete opinion on how it compares to the AK. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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