mav 459 Posted May 21, 2009 Report Share Posted May 21, 2009 Some people are purists and beleive that you should not do anything to modernize a 60 year old design because that would be bad. Just guessing here. Assumption is the mother of all fu*k ups. The saiga rifle is equiped with a perfectly good side rail mounting bracket. No need for this design. I am only a "purist" when the original design is better or more efficient... as it is in this case. Off center is better or more efficient? Dude, what planet are you from? Bore centered is ALWAYS better, period. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 I've been fighting with siderail scope mount inconsistencies for about 2 years now and the only thin efficient about them is that they are cheap and easy to install but otherwise I'm not impressed.I have a heavily modified MTK low profile mount that I am finishing for my S308 and I am thinking that I am going to have to drill out the rivets for the original side rail and remount it with screws and a steel backing plate inside the receiver to eliminate movement and then center the rail on the mount with the optic and a laser boresighter to get a true zero so I can test if it's repeatable or not. If I thought these dogleg units were tough enough and that they would absolutely hold zero I would toss these pieces of Kalinka Krap in a heartbeat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Some people are purists and beleive that you should not do anything to modernize a 60 year old design because that would be bad. Just guessing here. Assumption is the mother of all fu*k ups. The saiga rifle is equiped with a perfectly good side rail mounting bracket. No need for this design. I am only a "purist" when the original design is better or more efficient... as it is in this case. Not trying to start a pissing contest. You came on rather strong with all the "monstrosity" and "crap" statements. The OP asked if anyone had a TWS rail and for feedback. I guessing (again) that you don't have one and so are not in the position to offer any valid input other than a rant. Obviously you like the siderail set up, but I find that it mounts the scope I prefer too high and off center. Add to that the less than ideal AK sights with short sight radius and this kind of rail fills a need for many people. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Hey Ax-Man, Pleasure talking with you today. Thought you might like to see some pictures of the rail and peep we discussed today. I tried to post them and got a message saying no dynamic pages allowed. What am I doing wrong? You can check out lots of pics on my Flickr page Link Well crap!! It looks like I ordered too soon? That peep is mounted in an extra slot that's not on my rail! I had heard about the rear peep but I thought it was an add on part, not a whole different rail set design. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rafaga 8 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 I've been fighting with siderail scope mount inconsistencies for about 2 years now and the only thin efficient about them is that they are cheap and easy to install but otherwise I'm not impressed.I have a heavily modified MTK low profile mount that I am finishing for my S308 and I am thinking that I am going to have to drill out the rivets for the original side rail and remount it with screws and a steel backing plate inside the receiver to eliminate movement and then center the rail on the mount with the optic and a laser boresighter to get a true zero so I can test if it's repeatable or not. If I thought these dogleg units were tough enough and that they would absolutely hold zero I would toss these pieces of Kalinka Krap in a heartbeat. Hey SOPMOD, I was having all the same problems you just described which is what lead to the development of the DogLeg. I found that the available products were either cheap Chinese junk or way over the top super quad rail things that cost as much or more than the rifle. Regarding the specific concerns you have. The rail when installed and latched properly is very tough and durable, it was designed to be. If you drop your rifle on the scope as someone else suggested you will damage the scope long before any damage to the rail. Now, if someone decides to open it up and use it as a tire iron well then they're on their own. Naturally any scoped rifle requires a bit more care than a non-scoped rifle. The zero repeatability of the rail is excellent. Again, it was designed to be. The rear quick release mechanism has a half round saddle cut into the intermediate block to locate it for and aft. It also has a central guide channel to locate it side to side. When the assembly is latched it has a very solid feel with no perceptible movement. To verrify zero repeatability we did a couple of simple tests. With a lazer bore sight installed the rail was opened and closed repeatedly to confirm the scope returned to zero time after time. Next we took it out to the range, after all that's what matters. We would shoot a three round group, open and close the rail, then shoot another three round group. This process was repeated over several hundred rounds. Many many measurements were taken not just of the groups, but of the rifle itself to measure for any creep or movement of the rail. Some of our early prototypes didn't measure up. After lots of head scratching and development we arrived at the current design. The Dog Leg was developed to solve the specific problem of mounting an optic on the AK while maintaining proper ergonomics. We strove to achieve this while maintaining the AK philosophy of simple, dependable, and affordable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rafaga 8 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Well crap!! It looks like I ordered too soon? That peep is mounted in an extra slot that's not on my rail! I had heard about the rear peep but I thought it was an add on part, not a whole different rail set design. No need to worry Paladin. If you decide to get the rear peep we'll cut the slot for you at no charge. You just need to send me the rail so we can cut the slot and fit the peep. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Well crap!! It looks like I ordered too soon? That peep is mounted in an extra slot that's not on my rail! I had heard about the rear peep but I thought it was an add on part, not a whole different rail set design. No need to worry Paladin. If you decide to get the rear peep we'll cut the slot for you at no charge. You just need to send me the rail so we can cut the slot and fit the peep. Thanks!, I'm definitely interested in the rear peep. Let me know when it's ready. There you go, customer service is included with the rail. I've already stated this earlier in this thread, but I have mounted the rail on two of my guns, a X39 and the .308. It adjusts to accommodate receiver variances and has returned to zero with repeated latching and unlatchings. Not the most scientific, but I mounted a scope and MRD and then sighted it in on a target 25yds out. But for what it's worth, that's my experience so far. It locks up solid, you can't get any lower over the dust cover, and I have a Armalite one piece mount with a Millet DMS on it and there is NO wobble. I can get the perfect eye relief and cheek weld. If the peep sight works with the front sight then it will co-witness with a MRD. I have an Ultimak rail with Fast Fire on it and I can co-witness with the stock sights. Add the rail/rear flip up peep and you can run a MRD, with a valid BUIS setup. Or for you iron sight guys, get the rail/peep and you have a much improved sights and almost doubled sight radius. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Well crap!! It looks like I ordered too soon? That peep is mounted in an extra slot that's not on my rail! I had heard about the rear peep but I thought it was an add on part, not a whole different rail set design. No need to worry Paladin. If you decide to get the rear peep we'll cut the slot for you at no charge. You just need to send me the rail so we can cut the slot and fit the peep. Thanks!, I'm definitely interested in the rear peep. Let me know when it's ready. There you go, customer service is included with the rail. I've already stated this earlier in this thread, but I have mounted the rail on two of my guns, a X39 and the .308. It adjusts to accommodate receiver variances and has returned to zero with repeated latching and unlatchings. Not the most scientific, but I mounted a scope and MRD and then sighted it in on a target 25yds out. But for what it's worth, that's my experience so far. It locks up solid, you can't get any lower over the dust cover, and I have a Armalite one piece mount with a Millet DMS on it and there is NO wobble. I can get the perfect eye relief and cheek weld. If the peep sight works with the front sight then it will co-witness with a MRD. I have an Ultimak rail with Fast Fire on it and I can co-witness with the stock sights. Add the rail/rear flip up peep and you can run a MRD, with a valid BUIS setup. Or for you iron sight guys, get the rail/peep and you have a much improved sights and almost doubled sight radius. Is it close enough to the top cover that if it flexes inward that it will be against the top cover before it could be bent out of whack? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) Hey Ax-Man, Pleasure talking with you today. Thought you might like to see some pictures of the rail and peep we discussed today. I tried to post them and got a message saying no dynamic pages allowed. What am I doing wrong? You can check out lots of pics on my Flickr page Link If you take the item in #24 pic (looks bullet proof) and just 'thickin' the base couldn't you WELD or bolt directly to dust cover near the rear and be done with this. Its a PEEP-sight not for precision shooting. IMHO. I do like the photo showing the 'view' thru this piece also. This would save everyone a headache (price wise) and given its low stance could easily mount a scope above it on a rail.. Edited for duh.. Of course I posted b4 I read 2nd page of posts...nevermind. Edited May 22, 2009 by YouWontHearItComing Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Well crap!! It looks like I ordered too soon? That peep is mounted in an extra slot that's not on my rail! I had heard about the rear peep but I thought it was an add on part, not a whole different rail set design. No need to worry Paladin. If you decide to get the rear peep we'll cut the slot for you at no charge. You just need to send me the rail so we can cut the slot and fit the peep. Thanks!, I'm definitely interested in the rear peep. Let me know when it's ready. There you go, customer service is included with the rail. I've already stated this earlier in this thread, but I have mounted the rail on two of my guns, a X39 and the .308. It adjusts to accommodate receiver variances and has returned to zero with repeated latching and unlatchings. Not the most scientific, but I mounted a scope and MRD and then sighted it in on a target 25yds out. But for what it's worth, that's my experience so far. It locks up solid, you can't get any lower over the dust cover, and I have a Armalite one piece mount with a Millet DMS on it and there is NO wobble. I can get the perfect eye relief and cheek weld. If the peep sight works with the front sight then it will co-witness with a MRD. I have an Ultimak rail with Fast Fire on it and I can co-witness with the stock sights. Add the rail/rear flip up peep and you can run a MRD, with a valid BUIS setup. Or for you iron sight guys, get the rail/peep and you have a much improved sights and almost doubled sight radius. Is it close enough to the top cover that if it flexes inward that it will be against the top cover before it could be bent out of whack? I would just about bet on it SOPMOD. I got a sheet of paper and placed it over the dust cover along the length of the rail and latched the rail back down. It was so tight I had to give it a serious pull to get the paper out. The kind of impact you mentioned earlier would result in the dust cover acting as a backing to the rail. Any flexing of the rail would be almost directly transferred to the dust cover. I was worried at first that it may be pressing down on the dust cover, but after repeated opening and closings I could not detect any actual deflection of the dust cover. Sounds like were both building .308 DMR's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 I was just about to "pull the trigger", (forgive the expression ), on a Krebs rear sight receiver rail system, but it looks like this product from TWS has all of the features I'm looking for for ~$100 less. I'm a bit confused from the posts in this thread.. are they available now or are they "coming soon"? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 I have a rail now obviously, but the "new" ones will be available with the rear peep. It is my understanding that they are about ready to be released. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cscharlie 107 Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 In another thread someone posted that there was mention of a model that will work with an underfolder. A lot of us cut the stock tang off to mount reciever blocks to work with Ace folding stocks.. Are there any plans to offer a model that would work without the tang? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
broberts001 0 Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 In another thread someone posted that there was mention of a model that will work with an underfolder. A lot of us cut the stock tang off to mount reciever blocks to work with Ace folding stocks.. Are there any plans to offer a model that would work without the tang? I have the same question. I cut my tang and installed an ACE stock... I like this DogLeg, but I am missing my tang -Bryan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oxyehho 8 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 I have a rail now obviously, but the "new" ones will be available with the rear peep. It is my understanding that they are about ready to be released. Any news yet? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
atxshooter 0 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 so are these available already? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reverendfranz 160 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Posted on another forum on 5/18: OK, so its been about a week since the pics of the peep were posted. We've had a few minor suggestions on improvement, but nothing huge. Basically we'll smooth the sharp corners a little bit to make it softer to the touch. The design will freeze as of today and we'll begin production tomorrow or Wednesday. Manufacturing time plus sending out for anodize will give us a completion date about two weeks out. Thanks for the reviews and suggestions. I'll post updates as they're available. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
atxshooter 0 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evi1joe 1 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 I'm doing the internal ACE mod, so I guess I too will be tang-less and sh_t out of luck unless we can figure something else out. Is there anything that replaces the dust cover but has a sight on it that extends the sight-radius? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jgillaspy 24 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 I'm doing the internal ACE mod, so I guess I too will be tang-less and sh_t out of luck unless we can figure something else out. Is there anything that replaces the dust cover but has a sight on it that extends the sight-radius? Tech Sights has one that replaces the rear half of the Recoil Spring and uses a modified Dust Cover. Kind of expensive for just a peep sight. . . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rafaga 8 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 In another thread someone posted that there was mention of a model that will work with an underfolder. A lot of us cut the stock tang off to mount reciever blocks to work with Ace folding stocks.. Are there any plans to offer a model that would work without the tang? I have the same question. I cut my tang and installed an ACE stock... I like this DogLeg, but I am missing my tang -Bryan Hi All, A couple of updates for you. I'm currently receiving and updating rails for folks that had earlier models without the peep sight slot. As this is being done there is another batch of rails in production that will include the dovetail slot for future users. This next batch should be ready by the end of next week if all goes well. Now regarding the underfolder guys. I'm sorry the DogLeg doesn't fit your weapons as it is currently designed. I have, however, received enough requests that I have begun to seriously look at how I might make something that works for you. I don't know that I can come up with anything good as it is a tough nut to crack, but I am working on it. Right now I'm at the scratching my head phase of the project and it may take a couple of months to get it done. Soon as I come up with anything I'll post some pictures. Thanks for your support so far. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tiny 2 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 What if there was a mount with the dust cover being part of the rail. Hinged in the front and locks in the back Sort of like the new saiga 12 that they have in russia? Thats what I'm look for. But i want it to have an HK drum rear sight on it for a SBR .223 AK with an Ace folder project that I'm working on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fxhart 14 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 What if there was a mount with the dust cover being part of the rail. Hinged in the front and locks in the back Sort of like the new saiga 12 that they have in russia? Thats what I'm look for. But i want it to have an HK drum rear sight on it for a SBR .223 AK with an Ace folder project that I'm working on. That would be a great part. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oxyehho 8 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Hi All, A couple of updates for you. I'm currently receiving and updating rails for folks that had earlier models without the peep sight slot. As this is being done there is another batch of rails in production that will include the dovetail slot for future users. This next batch should be ready by the end of next week if all goes well. Please make an announcement when the new rails are ready. Also, the new rails will come with those peep sights, right? Or do I have to order those separately? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rafaga 8 Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Please make an announcement when the new rails are ready.Also, the new rails will come with those peep sights, right? Or do I have to order those separately? oxyehho, The new batch of rails will be ready to ship in just a few days. All new rails will be machined with a dovetail groove to accept the new peep sight. The peep itself will be an optional upgrade. Contact me by email for specifics. Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oxyehho 8 Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Please make an announcement when the new rails are ready.Also, the new rails will come with those peep sights, right? Or do I have to order those separately? oxyehho, The new batch of rails will be ready to ship in just a few days. All new rails will be machined with a dovetail groove to accept the new peep sight. The peep itself will be an optional upgrade. Contact me by email for specifics. Cheers PM sent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shootist 3 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Here is something I have added to my rifle system. Its a Fuller built 5.45, but look at the top cover and the optics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike1234567 26 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Here is something I have added to my rifle system. Its a Fuller built 5.45, but look at the top cover and the optics. Does your scope stay zeroed? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
alex e 5 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Got an email saying mine is 3 wks out..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sonofliberty 6 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I noticed Suarez has the built in front sight / gas block combo running with the TWS rail. Does anyone know if the TWS will line up level with the Acer Bolt-on FS/GB setup? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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