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AK-308

What kind of accuracy are you getting from your Saiga 308?

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spitstickler, that's some nice shooting! Don't be surprised if the SMK 168 actually does worse than the cheap monarch. The saiga barrel is a 1:12 twist rate so it won't do well with heavier bullets. 168 may be ok though. Keep us posted on your results.

 

 

The rifling is for the 150g ammo that is so commonly used. Stay with it if you want to shoot heavier ammo buy a boltie that's rifled for it.

 

I'll happily admit that I know very little about Saigas and have never owned one, but I do know a bit about .308's and accuracy, and the above is not true. The vast majority of .308 bolt guns are 1/12, including my Remington PSS. The barrel on mine is cut to 20", and it's run thousands of 175's and some up to 190 without a hint of destabalization and an average accuracy of .6 MOA. I know guys with 16.5" 1/12's who have done the same with no problem. I won't argue that a Saiga might do better with lighter bullets, but it's not because the rate of twist can't handle it.

 

Damn, I just saw this response (need to keep up with these poll threads).

 

Bolt guns are inherently more accurate platforms. That locked bolt means most of the pressure is directed out towards the barrel resulting in a faster bullet exit speed than what you would get from a semiauto action. In a semiauto the chamber doesn't hold all the pressure and a lot of it is used to move the bolt to the rear.

 

So less spin would not necessarily affect your groups in a bolt action as much as with a semiauto weapon, where the round is traveling at a slower rate. This is also why some reloaders can get away with loading beyond max recommendations (at their own risk of course) and getting some really good results on a semiauto rifle but if they used those loads on a bolt action they would most likely get a chunk of metal to the face. The S308 prefers lighter round because it allows it to exit the weapon faster and thereby get to the target faster with the fewest effects from external conditions.

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The S308 prefers lighter round because it allows it to exit the weapon faster and thereby get to the target faster with the fewest effects from external conditions.

 

Doesn't the twist rate determine the optimum size and weight of the round that can be stabilized?

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The S308 prefers lighter round because it allows it to exit the weapon faster and thereby get to the target faster with the fewest effects from external conditions.

 

Doesn't the twist rate determine the optimum size and weight of the round that can be stabilized?

 

 

 

Yes

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Twist rate is a primary factor yes, but it is also affected by bullet length, bullet shape, terminal range, and velocity.

 

For example, most bullet manufacturers would recommend most of their heavier .308 bullets need a 10in. twist, yet Berger specifies12in. for their 175/185 grain VLD (very low drag) bullets.

 

Put all of this together and what does it mean? Start with the recommendations and find out for yourself. For example, a certain 175 grain equipped cartridge may specify 10in. twist, yet remain perfectly stabilized and accurate out to 400 yards in a given rifle with a 12in. twist. If that round were accurate in someone's weapon who only wants it for 400 yards or less, that round would work fine.

 

It's like life. Read the book, see the movie, get advice, then figure it out for yourself. :)

Edited by TxMark

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bullet weight really should not make much difference for me should it? i only plan on shooting up to 100 yards max and a couple inches will not matter too much i think.

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When i post about my accuracy with any rifle or handgun its me and my son shooting it and getting the same results so its no fluke. With us only using the surplus south african 308ball ammo so far were both getting 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds benchrested. They seem to stay at 1 1/2" groups no less and no larger if we do our part. This isn't bad with using surplus 308 ball ammo. We will be loading up some match grade quality ammo in 145gr FMJBT, 150gr FMJBT and some 175gr FMJBT ammo to try next benchrested. UNKP

 

I believe the shorter distances require the lighter bullets and the longer distances require the heavier bullets because there more stable. But there are also the cross wind factors and our capabilites on that day too. I also wonder were the 21" barrel will out shoot the 16" barrel at what distance?

 

With the lighter bullet there is less peak breach pressure time wise to move out the lighter bullet as to where the heavier bullet requires a longer peak breech pressure timing to move out the bullet. Can this matter, i'm not sure yet. But it could also be why the bullet weights can differ in performance. I think its the rifling and the breech peak pressure timing that can affect its performance. Its the difference between a slow pitch and a fast pitch.

Edited by Unknown Poster

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As far as that goes you might as well start with a bolt gun. I just want to see it done. Just so we know.

If I had the resources I would do it just because it's never been done.

What is the true capabilities of a Saiga? matter of fact is we don't know.

 

<shrug>

 

I'm all for experimenting and such, but at some point you have to look at the dollars.

 

To get a custom barrel cut, installed and finished you're going to pay lots of money. Its not a simple operation to slap custom barrels on gas operated guns, because the gas block has to fit at the end of the day!!

 

After all is said and done, start to finish .. you're probably looking at a $2000 rifle that won't shoot as well as other $2000 rifles. Will it shoot better than anything else in the Kalashnikov family? Quite possibly. If you want a tricked out AK as a novelty for yourself, or you just have $2000 to spend.. I certainly won't argue with you.

 

But $2000 buys a LOT of rifle. For MY $2000, I'd start with a different platform. An AR platform in .308 would probably give the best end results as far as straight accuracy.. but MAY give up some things in terms of reliability. The M14 platform manages to strike a balance between accuracy and AK-like reliability, with the expense of being a pain in the ass to KEEP accurate (stock bedding breaks down).

 

But all that being said .. who cares?

 

The Saiga 308, and for that matter a rack-grade M14, or FAL .. they are all high power battle rifles. You need to be able to hit a man-sized target at 300 yds. Call it 12" by 12" for a solid torso hit. Last time a checked, 12/3 = 4. So as long as your rifle holds a 4" group at 100 yds, you're doing fine. The advantage of the 308 in a battle rifle is NOT for its longer potential flight - it is for the energy it delivers and the fact that it can turn cover into concealment.

 

Sure, you can invest a lot of time and money to try to turn any of these battle rifles into sniper rifles.. and if you swing it hard enough, you can use a monkey wrench as a hammer.. but I for one would rather just have the right tool for the job.

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I think we don't need to spend a dime on a better barrel upgrade for the saiga in 308. To do a sniper upgrade or have an accurate better long range shooting saiga we need to experiment to find out what bullet weight is the sweet spot for the best accuracy out of the saiga. Once we have it shooting tighter groups at 100yds we need to look at the optics next. Once we apply the quality optics and sight it in were ready for shooting at the longer distances. I'm sorry but my gut feeling is the saiga with its world famous quality russian chromed lined barrel/chamber i'm sure can hold its own. We just need the right weight ammo with the right load and benchrest it down solid. Why do i need to get an AR10???? I have the ultimate proven battle rifle of all time right here for $289 / $307 OTD its the brand new russian izmash saiga. My requirements are getting a semi auto in 308 thats the best battle field proven, the most dependable, reliable, accurate, light to carry and easy to clean, rifle. This sounds like the M14 don't it? But its the russian izmash saiga.

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Red Jacket did a project gun this week on Sons of Guns using a S308 to make a sniper quality semi.

Custom barrel, custom trigger, custom gas system (short stroke) and 2 grand it was done.

Watch the episode for clues.

 

Edit: Wasnt real impressed with the scope mounting but thats not their strong point at Red Jacket, rest of the rifle was amazing.

Edited by Rhodes1968

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I have an AR10 with a 24" bull barrel that likes 168 gr SMK's with 43 gr of Varget, I have a Long Barrel 308 Saiga the will shoot the 168/43 grain load also. The Saiga has the RS trigger and a custom brake. The Saiga could not touch the AR for accuracy. But i'm comparing a bull barreled rifle with a nat match trigger to a reasonably light barreled Saiga. I can get close to 1.25 inch with the Saiga @100yds,I can get less than an inch with the AR 10..

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Here's the target from sighting my .308. Average group size was about 1.5 inches at 100m using Brown Bear. The red target area is 2.5 x 3.5 and the center circle is 1 inch. The vertical group movement was due to scope adjustments. The last two shots are at 4 and 5 o'clock. The circled holes are the .308 the others are .223.

 

If I recall Izhmash claimed 40mm groups for the .308 which would be 1.6MOA. My rifle appears capable of that.

gallery_33171_687_42984.jpg

 

gallery_33171_687_239338.jpg

Edited by Jaba1017

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When I take my .308 Saiga to the range, I drag along my .308 bolt guns; a Rem. 788 carbine and a Ruger 77. Both are scoped. Both shoot 1 to 1.25" groups at 100 yards with my handloads.

 

The unconverted long-barrel Saiga pretty much stays with them shooting groups around 1.5 to 1.75" with the same handloads....and iron sights. Not shabby. Wish my 7.62x39 and .223 Saigas did as well.

 

One thing: I take my time shooting groups and don't let the barrel heat up.

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I'm curious if the re-enforcement plate on the rear of the Saiga receiver is important to accuracy. It is spot welded unlike the other Saigas which were merely riveted to the receiver. The only two issues holding me up from converting my .308 are whether the rear of the receiver will need to be reinforced if the plate is removed (SVDs and PSLs are both reinforced at the rear) and whether a stock can be obtained that will allow proper eye relief with the side mounted PSO. A NATO length AK stock isn't going to cut it IMO on the .308. I have the set up on my 7.62x39 and it works fair, but it puts my eye right at the scope and with the .308 I'll get popped in the eye with the recoil. The adjustable Black Horse SVD stock would work great but that's getting into some money. The Rhineland AK SVD stock looks a tad short on eye relief in photos with the PSO.

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I think the red jacket sniper saiga was way over built. I do not think anyone has ever sat down and shot the 308 saiga with a 16'' barrel and a 22'' barrel to see where there limits really are with accuracy.Some guys in the past who own the vepr and the saiga in 308 the saiga is a tad more accurate over the vepr.

 

Again put some moly on the trigger and benchrest it.

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My S-.308 is highly modified including a free floating handguard and fluted barrel, but will do (with scope) about a 1 minute group.

 

attachicon.gifIMG_8915_resize.jpg

Tritium, I'm new here, but getting ready to buy a 22" barrel Saiga that I would like to convert into a highly accurate gun, do you have any details on how to do a free floating handle and mounting of the bipod in order to maximize accuracy?

 

Thanks!

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Mine swiss chessed a 3"x4" aluminum block (billet brick) I found at my shootin spot. using iron sights I rolled it up the 100 yard burm all day long. 100 yards is as far as I can see without a scope.

I shot "90" dated POF 7.62 ammo that was linked.

Edited by yamahacowboy

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I"ve got a 16 inch version. Clover leafs are using brass ammo shooting 1.5 moa.

 

Used an old target and the two Black circles are mine. The three groups circled in red are cheap 150gr SP Federal blue box and the other holes on target are Monarch 145gr steel case. Groups opened up condiderably with steel case.

 

 

post-46383-0-27632400-1358338068_thumb.jpg

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I made my gun rests out of 2" x 10" planks with old pants used for cushion. The gun is pulled straight down into the rests and the rear one adjusts the sights on target.

 

The only thing i did to my saiga's is there lubed with moly on the boltcarrier and i put moly on the trigger sear too. The saiga operates very smooth now.

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Finally got my scope stabilized on my Saiga .308. After running a couple boxes through it, Im happily surprised by the accuracy. My first group was right at 1MOA. After that most groups were close but would usually have a flyer pushing it to 1.5 to 2. I was just over at thehighroad.org reading a thread by a guy deciding between an M1A and a Saiga .308. One guy said he gets 3-4" groups out of his M1A. I think my Saiga .308 would probably shoot sub 4" groups with a baloney sandwich stuffed inside the receiver.

Edited by hughes35e

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I must admit my new saiga was one of the first batch of them imported here when they were just NIB $389 for the 16"/308win, were shooting South African military surplus 308 ball ammo. At 100yds, benchrested, no optics, right out of the box, cleaned and lubed with moly paste she shoots 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds. Forgive me this is my very first ak/akm style rifle getting this kind of accuracy from a sheetmetal stamped and welded semi auto to me is unheard of. I purchased the saiga Sporter to hunt with.

 

Years ago here I couldn't get an answer about the difference in accuracy between the 16" barrel and the 22" barreled saiga in 308 win. I been wondering were does the accuracy of the 308/16" barrel fall off and how far can the 308/22" barrel accurately shoot?

 

Fact, I was at my LGS to purchase a new m1a($2,000) and seen the rack filled with new 308win saigas for $389. I was never interested in any ak/akm due to the workmanship of the used or returns. But since the saiga is a brand new Russian Izmash saiga Sporter rifle I couldn't go wrong my gut feeling was right.

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Barrel length / accuracy is a voodoo area. Barrel harmonics play the largest part in this. 16" will have less velocity that 20" but the shorter barrel may be stiffer, and shoot more accurately. Or NOT!

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Saiga rifles are like Russian women, you can't tell,if you got a nice girl who'll take care of you and have borscht and vodka waiting for you when you get home or a crazy psycho who will break your heart, just by looking at her.

Saiga rifles are like Russian women, you can't tell,if you got a nice girl who'll take care of you and have borscht and vodka waiting for you when you get home or a crazy psycho who will break your heart, just by looking at her.

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