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What kind of accuracy are you getting from your Saiga 308?


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#31 aresv

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 09:36 AM

I guess my real question would be, is that is there any reasonable way to reduce the effect of the gas tube on the barrel? I have poked around and not found a lot of info. I would think that free floating the hand guard and reducing the effects of the gas tube might really help.


That ought to help. You can built a fine DMR on the AK platform. Take for instance the Romanian PSL, Iraqi Tabuk, and Yugo M-76. The one thing that bugs me is when people speak of "Dragunov clones" when they're simply DMR AK's, not Dragunovs.

Real Dragunovs (that is, the Russian SVD and Tigr, Chinese type 79/NDM-86 and type 85, and Iraqi Al-Qadesih) are have completely different actions than any AK. They have a short stroke system, much less massive gas piston, and a lightweight op rod that is separate from the bolt carrier. These are fundamental differences, and no amount of modification will turn a Kalashnikov action into a Dragunov. Apples and oranges.
To be rational is to look the universe in the face and not flinch.

#32 John O.

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 11:02 AM

3-4" groups at 100 yd. Open sights. That is as good as I shoot with open sights!

#33 Rhodes1968

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:05 PM

Ammo plays an important role but it still comes down to the shooter. Most people just dont know the techniques involved which is why I always try to get people to invest in training. It doesnt cost much if you can get to an Appleseed, for about 100.00 to cover travel costs of the instructors you get what amounts to better basic rifleman instruction than the military and get to spend a weekend shooting. Cant beat that any where.

It really does no good to have a 2 MOA rifle with a 6 MOA shooter. These rifles just shoot better than we do by a large margin unless we make the effort to learn proper marksmanship.
Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#34 FrustratedInCali

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 01:09 PM

I'm just happy enough to hit a pie pan at 100yds and hear the metal target at 100yds go "ping" everytime I pull the trigger shot after shot. Being able to hit targets at 200yds from time to time, better. Being able to hit a target at 300yds, woo hoo!

However, if I want greater accuracy and the ability to hit targets at 300+yds, I would get a bolt gun plus some very good glass to go with it.

#35 Rhodes1968

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 04:45 PM

Took the 308 out to the range to test the new metal mags and I must say this rifle continues to surprise me. Its shooting at less than 2MOA and I just cant believe I got this for less than 400.00. Offhand shooting will suffer until I get it converted and a proper sling. Wish I had started with this one instead of the x39 but if I had I would not have both now.
Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#36 King of the Hill

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 07:37 PM

My .308 is dead on strait out of the box.
.

#37 phoglund

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 10:42 AM

This is the only group I've ever shot for measure with my unconverted Saiga .308. Can't be sure if it was luck of the day or something it would be consistent about. It should be noted that I'm not what you would call a 'precision shooter'. I was using Australian ADI NATO spec. ball ammo and shooting at 100 yards on a calm summer day at about 75F. One of these days I'll do the conversion and see if it does this well on a consistent basis with the better trigger the conversion provides. The nice thing about this rifle is I bought it before the prices on these started moving up. $279 OTD!

Posted ImagePosted Image

#38 AKsarben

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 03:21 PM

Excellent group, phoglund!! Was this a 16" or a 22" barrel rifle? Some excellent photography as well, and it really shows the craftsmanship. Next time, try a white target with a small 1/2" center dot to shoot at. You would be surprised at how much that will improve a group, getting a tiny target for the cross hairs.
Vern
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There's room for all of God's creatures.... right next to the mashed potatoes.

#39 Rhodes1968

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 12:57 AM

Those kind of groups can come with this rifle, I would get more of that ammo as it seems your rifle likes it.
Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#40 AKsarben

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 01:20 PM

It's kind of hard looking at the business end if it was 16" or 22" though. :)
Vern
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There's room for all of God's creatures.... right next to the mashed potatoes.

#41 Deussne

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 06:30 PM

Posted Image

The grouping to the left is saiga 308 at 100 yards, standing up with krebs sight and no support.
The other bullet holes are from mosin, they are all over.

#42 m1key

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 06:54 PM

Saiga 308 21 inch with irons @100 yds...1-1.5 with 168 Match loads, 2-3 inches with 147 Nato ball, 3-4 with 140 Silver Bear

Edited by m1key, 13 August 2009 - 06:55 PM.


#43 AKsarben

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:10 PM

Still wondering the barrel length of that rifle of phoglund???
Vern
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#44 m1key

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:55 PM

Still wondering the barrel length of that rifle of phoglund???


I'll bet its this one:

Attached Files


Edited by m1key, 14 August 2009 - 09:56 PM.


#45 AKsarben

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 10:34 PM

Many thanks m1key!! Bet all the .308 in a 16" will belch fire with the right ammo. Bet they can be tamed down a bit with faster burning powder to be used up in that 16" barrel as well.
Vern
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#46 AKsarben

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 09:32 PM

Pretty Background. Reminds me of home back in NW Nebraska.
Vern
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There's room for all of God's creatures.... right next to the mashed potatoes.

#47 AKsarben

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 08:48 PM

NOW that I have a .308, I can post in here some results. Sub MOA, 16" barrel Saiga .308. Using handloads of Varget. Left target was 150 gr spire point with Varget shot at 100 yards, 3 shots. Target on the right was 130 gr spire point, with Varget. I think you can read the grains used in the picture. I have had several in the last few days that approached 1" MOA. I've put in a polished Tapco G2 trigger group and am breaking in the barrel. It might do better after several more rounds. Shoot just a few, then clean WELL with CR-10 Copper bore solvent, or Sweet's 7.62 copper bore cleaner, and Hoppe's No. 9. I shoot a few rounds and clean the bore. It allows the bore to polish in and shoots a bit better than it did right out of the box. I shoot NO steel case bullets. I can't say 100% that breaking in a chrome lined barrel does that much, but my targets sure seem to tighten up when following a regime of shoot - clean - shoot - clean- shoot - clean..etc. for about 50 or so rounds.

Anyway, the targets: Later I'll take pictures of the MBR .308 that I have, as the big brother to the .223.

Posted Image

Correction: That target on the left should read 2.740" and NOT 4.740 for the Overall All Length.

Edited by Darth AkSarBen, 16 September 2009 - 06:25 AM.

Vern
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#48 Rhodes1968

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 07:50 AM

NOW that I have a .308, I can post in here some results. Sub MOA, 16" barrel Saiga .308. Using handloads of Varget. Left target was 150 gr spire point with Varget shot at 100 yards, 3 shots. Target on the right was 130 gr spire point, with Varget. I think you can read the grains used in the picture. I have had several in the last few days that approached 1" MOA. I've put in a polished Tapco G2 trigger group and am breaking in the barrel. It might do better after several more rounds. Shoot just a few, then clean WELL with CR-10 Copper bore solvent, or Sweet's 7.62 copper bore cleaner, and Hoppe's No. 9. I shoot a few rounds and clean the bore. It allows the bore to polish in and shoots a bit better than it did right out of the box. I shoot NO steel case bullets. I can't say 100% that breaking in a chrome lined barrel does that much, but my targets sure seem to tighten up when following a regime of shoot - clean - shoot - clean- shoot - clean..etc. for about 50 or so rounds.

Anyway, the targets: Later I'll take pictures of the MBR .308 that I have, as the big brother to the .223.


Correction: That target on the left should read 2.740" and NOT 4.740 for the Overall All Length.

Those are good results. Seems the 130grain are stabilizing a bit better than the 150gr. You changed both OAL and projectiles wonder what effect just OAL would have.
Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#49 AKsarben

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 10:01 AM

The 130 gr were more a "spitzer" bullet, they tapered in pretty quick to a point, where the 150gr were more relaxed curve toward the bullet tip, a kind of spire point. That may have had some effect on the overall length when set to the same spot on my LEE bullet seating die. Also, I wanted the bullet to be held by a little more neck than the 150gr which went in there very well. I used the LEE factory crimp on the bullets, so they had the same crimp, light, regardless of case length. Case length for a .308 is 2.800" but I had selected the 2.730 are this was closer to the Overall Case Length of some factory bullets I had. Obviously, the closer you get out to the rifling the tighter should be your group, AS LONG AS you don't go so far out as to have the bullet touch the rifling hard, then you build pressures real fast and you don't want that.

I have quite a selection of .308 bullets and will continue the process. But, this gives clues as to why I don't shoot Russian steel jacket bullets. I am not interested in a "Bang" I am intersted in a cloverleaf hole pattern out there. I reload, and look for the best bullet/powder combinations for my firearms. Each is different, the barrels are different, etc.

One other thing..... the powder, Hodgdon Varget, is about at the top end of filling the case with the grains used. To put a 150 gr bullet in there with any more powder might be compressing the load, and it can be done, but it too, will change pressure some.
In other words, you would not have to worry about a double charge with this powder as a single throw with the powder meter puts it right in the neck of the resized and primed case.

Edited by Darth AkSarBen, 16 September 2009 - 10:12 AM.

Vern
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#50 Rhodes1968

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 02:17 PM

The 130 gr were more a "spitzer" bullet, they tapered in pretty quick to a point, where the 150gr were more relaxed curve toward the bullet tip, a kind of spire point. That may have had some effect on the overall length when set to the same spot on my LEE bullet seating die. Also, I wanted the bullet to be held by a little more neck than the 150gr which went in there very well. I used the LEE factory crimp on the bullets, so they had the same crimp, light, regardless of case length. Case length for a .308 is 2.800" but I had selected the 2.730 are this was closer to the Overall Case Length of some factory bullets I had. Obviously, the closer you get out to the rifling the tighter should be your group, AS LONG AS you don't go so far out as to have the bullet touch the rifling hard, then you build pressures real fast and you don't want that.

I have quite a selection of .308 bullets and will continue the process. But, this gives clues as to why I don't shoot Russian steel jacket bullets. I am not interested in a "Bang" I am intersted in a cloverleaf hole pattern out there. I reload, and look for the best bullet/powder combinations for my firearms. Each is different, the barrels are different, etc.

One other thing..... the powder, Hodgdon Varget, is about at the top end of filling the case with the grains used. To put a 150 gr bullet in there with any more powder might be compressing the load, and it can be done, but it too, will change pressure some.
In other words, you would not have to worry about a double charge with this powder as a single throw with the powder meter puts it right in the neck of the resized and primed case.


IIRC the twist rate on the S308 is 1/12 which should work better with a lighter weight anyway. Someone mentioned a chamber cast to determine where the rifling starts for OAL but Ive heard horror stories about that stuff leaving crap in the chamber. Cut and try I guess unless someone else has already done the hard work.

Varget is good powder if only it worked as well with the x39 I wouldnt have to stock two powder types. Its supposed to work better on 18" barrels though isnt it? You seeing any streamers or the like on the 16"?
Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#51 AKsarben

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 07:55 PM

Yes, the twist rate is 1:12, but more like 1 in 12.598" It has a rate of twist of 1 in every 320mm. Remember, it's a metric rifle built in Russia. Source: http://izhevsk.club..../eng/sig308.htm

I've shot all the way down to IMR 4198 which is pretty fast. BLC-2 and H335 also look very promising. I have been trying Varget as I cannot load my .223 up with it as it overfills the case when I try to load it, so I don't want it to go to waste. It has, however, seemed to work very very well in this rifle. No, I have not seen streamers. I think it is getting pretty much burned up. I also use CCI Magnum primers, that may make for a more complete burn.

Shot just a tad bit more powder today, 130 gr bullet with 46.6 gr Varget and got a targe that was 1.097". I think the first round was off to the right just a bit, since it was a clean barrel, and the other 2 grouped quite close to each other.
Vern
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There's room for all of God's creatures.... right next to the mashed potatoes.

#52 Rhodes1968

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 12:45 PM

Yes, the twist rate is 1:12, but more like 1 in 12.598" It has a rate of twist of 1 in every 320mm. Remember, it's a metric rifle built in Russia. Source: http://izhevsk.club..../eng/sig308.htm

I've shot all the way down to IMR 4198 which is pretty fast. BLC-2 and H335 also look very promising. I have been trying Varget as I cannot load my .223 up with it as it overfills the case when I try to load it, so I don't want it to go to waste. It has, however, seemed to work very very well in this rifle. No, I have not seen streamers. I think it is getting pretty much burned up. I also use CCI Magnum primers, that may make for a more complete burn.

Shot just a tad bit more powder today, 130 gr bullet with 46.6 gr Varget and got a targe that was 1.097". I think the first round was off to the right just a bit, since it was a clean barrel, and the other 2 grouped quite close to each other.


Sorry just want to clarify, are you using Varget for the x39 or is the above for the 308. Varget works very well in the 308 as well as 54R which I will occasionally need to reload also but never seen a spec on the x39. Sorry if this seems obvious I just like to be very precise on these things. Thanks for the info.
Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#53 AKsarben

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 01:25 PM

It's for the .308 Winchester. I only have the Saigas in .223 and .308. I don't have anything that shoots 7.62 x 39. However, I did do some research and looking and it appears that for the x39 that Hodgdon Varget is too slow to provide much power for decent ballistics. I think it's probably a bit slow also for this rifle, the .308, but I have heard many good things about it and I have a pound of it to burn up. Should try some more with Benchmark H335,and BLC-2 as I really think they are a bit better for the shorter 16" barrel. I have even thought of getting some H322 to try as it, too, is a faster burn rate powder and should be utilized in the shorter barrel of the 16" .308.

In recap, what I have found is that the Hodgdon Varget doesn't have enough energy, even with a full case, to be useful for the 7.62 x 39.
Vern
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There's room for all of God's creatures.... right next to the mashed potatoes.

#54 Rhodes1968

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 07:47 PM

Thanks. My 308 is 21" barrel and a slow powder is perfect even though I thinking of taking it to 18" (with no FSB just threaded for a brake) it still should burn completely in that length.
Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#55 AKsarben

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 07:53 AM

Good groups!

Posted Image

$14.99 ammo from Dunhams.
Vern
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#56 AKsarben

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 08:25 PM

Shooting this afternoon. Saiga .308, 100 yards. Hodgdon Benchmark @ 42.5 gr 150 SPBT Hornady bullet, CCI#250 primer. 0.415" on 3 shot group. Looks like it is doing well to break in the barrel. I am breaking in this barrel like I did the .223. A few shots, then clean THOROUGHLY with copper bore cleaner / Hoppe's #9, then shoot a few more and re clean again. I believe it helps to polish in the barrel, sort of lap it, by shooting and cleaning. Getting rid of all the copper (and there was a LOT) after shooting. Maybe it's nonsense, but the groups are there, that's for sure.

Posted Image


Posted Image

Primers are not showing too much excessive pressure using this load of Benchmark. I am striving to get a nice clean burn using a bit faster burning powder than some others. There is a lot of accurate loads out there for use with Varget, and I have had some success with it as well. However, the Saiga I have is only 16" barrel and I am looking to get the powder tuned for that barrel length.

Anyone out there want to say that an AK-47 or Saiga is a "Minute of Pie Plate"??

I have no idea what steel cased ammo will do out of this rifle, and I'm not about to shoot one single steel case bullet in it to find out. If I found a gas station that sold low grade unleaded for 2.00 / gal, but was only 70 octane and not the 86 normal, would you buy it for your car?
Vern
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There's room for all of God's creatures.... right next to the mashed potatoes.

#57 Rhodes1968

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 05:18 PM

Never heard of steel case causing any damage for certain, it much softer than the chromium inside the chamber. It wont seal as well inside the chamber on firing of course and will be less accurate. Not going to help anything either unless you want to speed up break in. Of course the gasoline metaphor really wouldn't apply as it would cause engine damage due to preignition.
Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#58 AKsarben

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 06:10 PM

That is true about the gasoline knock. I get a little carried away by the steel case stuff. I know it's cheap, and I know this rifle and other AK types will digest it. Used in actual military rounds for heaven's sake. But, I like the idea of brass expanding and filling the chamber better than the steel and giving a better seal on the overall cartridge. Given that the steel is somewhat coated, it probably may be better on the chamber than dirty brass. However, the throat erosion may be a bit more, and I'm just wondering, don't know. It would take literally thousands of rounds to find out. Somewhere on the net I had recently read about life span of High Power rifle barrels. They had said they were in the neighborhood of something like 5,000 to 7,000 rounds. Seems like that is not very much, but given the high pressures and wear of the brass on the rifling, it may be true.
Vern
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There's room for all of God's creatures.... right next to the mashed potatoes.

#59 Rhodes1968

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Posted 02 October 2009 - 01:43 PM

That sounds awfully low except perhaps in competition match grade and even they would just no longer be spec but perfectly usable for anything else.

Im currently looking for a 308 bolt rifle for my paper punching addiction so the S308 can go back to its SHTF duty now that its broken in. Do love firing this rifle but wear is wear and given the unknown situation with the factory maybe its best. You have proven this rifle deserves and responds to good ammo. Thanks for your efforts.
Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#60 Fluid Power

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 10:56 AM

AKsarben,
Ah, now your talking about something I know about. The throat erosion issue can be a problem in a few hundred rounds. It's a pressure, heat (from burning powder gas) and velocity. It's a bigger issue if the barrel material is not up to it. The old 220 Swift (22-250 with some loads) and some of the big wildcats with a small diameter bore had the most problems. This was more so in the old days when steel was not as good. With modern chrome moly steels, it should go quite a few rounds before problems. Hard Chrome lined barrels change the whole issue. I believe the chrome will resist throat erosion. The issue with fully auto fire and extreme heat can be a problem. (the German MG42 would need the barrel changed every 200-250 rounds! or that's what they said on Lock and Load!) It would suck to have a high cycle rate that burned out barrels like that.

Throat erosion would only be a .223 and 5.45x39 issue. Barrel wear could happen to any firearm. Especially shooting steel jacket bullets (Russians say, the use a soft steel that is no worse than copper) If you keep the rate of fire lower, it would help.

Now Lube that Avotmat. Comrade!










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