vintagedude88 16 Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I'm looking for a .223 back-up to my S308. My plans are to add the MSA AR mag adapter so I can use readily available AR mags. My problem is this. I saw the Galil and its everything I want in a gun. Trouble is, I'm on a budget. I can get an S223 for almost half the price of the Galil. Of course it wouldn't have all the nice features as the Galil in its unconverted stock form. Here's my question how does the Galil stack up against a fully converted S223? I can handle buying the S223 and then piece all the goodies together as it comes along but I can't handle plunking it all down at once for a Galil. Basically, its can I mod and build an S223 to be better than a stock Galil with some modest effort? Or am I just better off buying the Galil? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
justinmcmillion 77 Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I was also going to purchase the Golani but I started hearing bad things. Alot of people have had problems with them, Read the reviews. Another thing, its built on a milled receiver which is good and bad, maybe more accurate? but I felt this gun in person and it is VERY heavy for an AK variant. I have the MSA magwell conversion on my gun and I like it better than my sig 556. nowhere near the shooter the 556 is (sub MOA) however it handles better is balanced much better and I can shoot it off hand 10 times better. Like I said above read the reviews, I think it was a feed issue, cant remember but the s223 converted is one of my favorite guns! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mstranglr 9 Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 If you have to get a AK type rifle from century, absolutely STAY AWAY from the Golani and the Tantals. Dont take my word for it, do a search yourself (you may even find pics of my f'ed rifles). Or, just get the Saiga so you dont have to worry about Century craftsmanship. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vintagedude88 16 Posted May 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Okay, I've read some of the reviews. It seems like its a hit or miss on these things due to poor quality control. There are good ones and bad ones out there. Don't like the extra weight. The weight of my S308 is more than enough, don't want to lug anything heavier just to shoot a smaller bullet. So now it gets down to accuracy and functionality. Can I build an S223 that would surpass the performance of a Galil? I'm looking for it to hit a pie pan about 300 - 400 yards. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Another thing, its built on a milled receiver which is good and bad, maybe more accurate? Milled receiver Kalashnikovs are no more accurate than their stamped cousins. You'll have people swear up and down that they are, but those people are being subjective: A heavier gun has less recoil. Less recoil means your sights don't stray so far from the target after each shot. Ergo, it must be "more accurate". The Russians only used a milled receiver because their metallurgy at the time did not allow them to go with the stamped receiver originally designed for the AK. I have no idea why folks insist that a 'bandaid fix' is more desireable (other than Arsenal Inc, serving the marketing kool-aid with gusto, and the sheep with the kool-aid mustachios are just singing the same ol' song) [ just an opinion, folks, just an opinion ] Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PinkFloyd 63 Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Yeah I've been contemplating the Tantals or an Arsenal... I was wondering what people thought of them? Sorry for the thread-jack... As far as the Golani's go, my Aunt had one a while back before she moved to Isreal, but it was an OLD Galil so I can't vouch for the newer ones that are coming thru the markets these days. IMO Galil's are superior to Ak's. I like the heft and ergo's better, tho I'm sure you can get similar things out of a Saiga 223. Could I ask what you're using the gun for? Home Defense or just a badass gun or hunting? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 To clarify some of your points: As far as the Golani's go, my Aunt had one a while back before she moved to Isreal, but it was an OLD Galil so I can't vouch for the newer ones that are coming thru the markets these days.Actual Israeli manufactured Galils are the cat's pyjamas. The current Century models started out as a crapshoot, and have slightly improved lately.IMO Galil's are superior to Ak's. Did you mean "IMI Galil's are superior to Ak's."? That is the truth. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
justinmcmillion 77 Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 (edited) If you are use to shooting Kalashnikovs the accuracy will satisfy you, If your use to shooting ARs... maybe a different story. I can get sub 2" out of mine but not on average that's using a red dot scope with a 4 MOA reticle. Factory sights for me, forget it Lucky to get sub 4" If your gonna shoot 250yds+ stick with the .308, Not saying you can't with the s223 or that the .223 muntion isn't capable of that range, but the 308 does it alot better. Really depends on what kind of optics you plan on using. If your going to use Irons you'll find the Golani to be more accurate (thats is if it functions) If you are going to use a red dot, like I said before I prefer my s223 over my ARs and My 556 (actually even prefer it over my 7.62 AKs) If your going to put a magnified scope the AR and the 556 are going to really shine. So my verdict is if your going with a red dot s223 is my favorite Assault Riffle that shoots .223 (ease of mind knowing it never jams, has a better more solid recoil than AR and good weight balance) If your going to scope it and clean your guns every time you shoot, I'd say building an AR would be the better option (please don't crucify me for saying that on a Kalashnikov Forum) most ARs are 1 MOA and that counts for a lot when your shooting 250yds+ But I would never trust my life to an AR! But the Golani would be out, Reliability is the reason I prefer an AK, Leave it up to CAI to make an unreliable AK, And its weight is obnoxious to not have a quad rail, lights, lasers, sights.... You would be over 10lbs if you turned the golani into a tactical riffle with all the bells and whistles Just MHO Edited May 29, 2009 by justinmcmillion Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vintagedude88 16 Posted May 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 ...Could I ask what you're using the gun for? Home Defense or just a badass gun or hunting? I'm looking for a .223 as a second range toy and a back-up to my S308 for when the SHTF. I intend on having it converted with the MSA AR mag adapter so I can take advantage of both the abundance of .223 ammo and AR mags. The Golani has all the whistles and bells I like such as the irons, the folder and the pistol grip left side safety switch. There is an MSA adapter available for it and there are reasonably priced rails available for it as well. However, after hearing about the weight and questionable reliability of it, I'm somewhat reluctant on scrounging the extra funds for the Golani over the S223. Every gun no matter how it was received is almost always a project. Its just that with the Golani, I thought I could get a head start towards how I want my AK based .223 I could handle just about anything needed to mod a gun except welding. I think I could get better irons on the S223 by using the ACE front sight with an HK rear sight welded on the the dust cover. Does anyone know if Tony at Tromix is willing to offer pre-mounted HK sight dustcovers? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PinkFloyd 63 Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 ...Could I ask what you're using the gun for? Home Defense or just a badass gun or hunting? I could handle just about anything needed to mod a gun except welding. I think I could get better irons on the S223 by using the ACE front sight with an HK rear sight welded on the the dust cover. Does anyone know if Tony at Tromix is willing to offer pre-mounted HK sight dustcovers? That's what I'd want to know to be honest. The only thing that irks me about Ak's is the sight radius... I can get much quicker shots in succession with a heavy gun with a big sight radius than a lighter gun and small sight radius. The Tromix Hk sights will fix that. I love Hk sights (I own an Mp5k and one of my 556's has a Hk drum sight on the rear) and they'd work great especially if you were shooting longer distances but you needed CQB sights as well. As far as a SHTF rifle goes, I'd go Saiga 223; there is no trade off between reliability of Galils (at least the IMI ones) and Ak's, but I like that you can pretty easily find mags, tho they aren't anywhere near as common as the 762x39 guns. Plus Ak parts are easy to find so if it breaks you can scavenge them off other people's guns or fab them yourself with a little knowhow. I think that's the best selling point of a SHTF rifle is can you find replacement parts. It's why I'm buying a Saiga 223 soon... cause even tho I have 3 Sig 556's, I don't know if I can keep them serviceable if a part breaks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
justinmcmillion 77 Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 http://akpartskits.com/cart/index.php?main...;products_id=18 I have This one although I dont know if I would use is since the dust cover isnt the best place for a sight since its not fixed to the bbl. I bought it for looks and it fits VERY SNUG sights are AR peep sight and if you could isolate your dust cover would be a great rear sight Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 http://akpartskits.com/cart/index.php?main...;products_id=18 I have This one although I dont know if I would use is since the dust cover isnt the best place for a sight since its not fixed to the bbl. I bought it for looks and it fits VERY SNUG sights are AR peep sight and if you could isolate your dust cover would be a great rear sight Iron sights work fine on a Saiga dust cover. Glass optics / reflex sights do not work fine on any AK dust cover. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vintagedude88 16 Posted May 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 http://akpartskits.com/cart/index.php?main...;products_id=18 I have This one although I dont know if I would use is since the dust cover isnt the best place for a sight since its not fixed to the bbl. I bought it for looks and it fits VERY SNUG sights are AR peep sight and if you could isolate your dust cover would be a great rear sight Thanks, that looks like a possible solution. Although, according to Naolith, the rail would be a waste. Is there another one out there that has just the HK sights only? I figure that I would use an optic on a low profile Belarusian side rail so the useless accessory rail on that cover would only get in the way. Still holding out for Tony to offer sighted dust covers (less rail). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
justinmcmillion 77 Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 Rail doesn't get in the way of the side low profile scope mount, however the sight does, you just have to put your dust cover on last. I still wouldn't use the sight on a dust cover unless it was a shotgun... Just think how little you have to move your front sight when adjusting your windage... Unless its a yugo M92 or Krinkov with a hinged cover .. Geometry tells you that if you have a difference of only 1.5 degrees of play in the radius of the front sight to the dust cover that your shot will have a marginal error of at least .5 degrees. Out of 360 degrees only 1/2 of 1 degree. So at 100 yards with only .5 degrees of error your shot can be about 2.5 ft off. 1.25ft to the right and 1.25ft to the left.. Even if you only had a .1 degree error your shot will still be off by 6 inches I hate to be the guy that breaks out the math but if your only off by .1 degree that's like varying 24 clicks of windage on a 1/4moa scope The rail is useless for optics. I originally bought it for looks, now my plans are to put one of my Eotechs on the quad rail and put a 3x flip magnifier on the dust cover rail. Another thing you might want to consider, with the hk sighted dust cover in the link I sent says that your front post may need to come up out of the front hood to even work. If you want to hit a pie pan at 250yds your headed in the wrong direction with the dust cover rear sights and even if you could after you cleaned your gun and reassembled it you couldn't hit it again This would be one of the best options for a rear sight Its made by krebs and it locks in the same place everytime Krebs Web Site Its pricey but if you truly want to shoot irons and increase your sight radius this is the route I'd go Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 Its made by krebs and it locks in the same place everytime Its pricey but if you truly want to shoot irons and increase your sight radius this is the route I'd go Krebs is one of those folks who likes to sell each letter of their name (iow, it's way overpriced). Our very own DPH Arms has a nice rail available: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
justinmcmillion 77 Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 Its made by krebs and it locks in the same place everytime Its pricey but if you truly want to shoot irons and increase your sight radius this is the route I'd go Krebs is one of those folks who likes to sell each letter of their name (iow, it's way overpriced). Our very own DPH Arms has a nice rail available: However yours it is lacking a rear sight, thats the only reason I posted the krebs because he was talking about a dust cover rear sight and not a rail, but that is a sexy rail, how does it attach to the front trunion? and how does it latch in the rear? I like the profile much better than the Krebs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 (edited) However yours it is lacking a rear sight, thats the only reason I posted the krebs because he was talking about a dust cover rear sight and not a rail, but that is a sexy rail, how does it attach to the front trunion? and how does it latch in the rear? I like the profile much better than the Krebs It's not "mine", and the fact that you can add any picatinny mounted sight is a plus. Why not ask Scott himself? That's why he has a subforum here. Edited May 30, 2009 by nalioth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 For the money I'd go with a .223 Saiga conversion. I've owned a IMI Galil, Built a .223 Galil on a ORF (Century) receiver, and a .223 Saiga. The standard sight set up on the Galil is much better than the AK and I typically shoot better with my Galil. Headspace is the biggest issue with the Century receivers and I can verify that the rumors are true in my case and the receiver was not properly heat treated. For whatever reason (possible brake) my Saiga does shoot softer than the heavier receiver Galil but the Galil is marginally more accurate. I have UA mag adapters on both guns, both feed great and I think the MSA adapter should be as good or better when properly fitted (from what I've read the MSA adapter requires minimal removal of material from the trunion). The only other suggestion would be to take a close look at a piston driven AR varriation. There are several on the market these days. They are by design made to take AR adapters, have picatinni rails, some are gas system adjustable, and have the usual shitload of available AR add on's. Sometimes by the time you're done adding what you want, you'll find that you could have purchased a ready to go out of the box that's as good or better. That said, there's always good things to be said about projects and learning. I would discourage the Century Galil unless you buy new, get the round count up quickly, and check headspace for growing issues. If you have a problem, have it corrected under warranty and don't delay. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vintagedude88 16 Posted May 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 ...If you want to hit a pie pan at 250yds your headed in the wrong direction with the dust cover rear sights and even if you could after you cleaned your gun and reassembled it you couldn't hit it again ... I think you misunderstood me. I don't expect to hit a pie pan at 250yds with the irons. I do expect to do that with optics like you said. But I would like irons on a Saiga that is as good as the irons on the Galil. I'm figuring that the better sight radius would help. The Krebs is nice but yes it is pricey! The TWS rail might be good because they will be offering a rear peep in their upcoming batch. That rail will be about the same price or less than the DPH rail with rear peep included. However, what I really want is something simple. I want to use a side rail for the optics and when and if things go to hell be able to strip it off easily and go to irons. Again, the Galil looked like a good candidate for that job and the difference in price is probably what it would cost me to bring the Saiga .223 to have similar features as the Galil. Seeing now that the Galil Golani from Century has potential to be "problematic" and given my experience so far with Saiga (I have both .308 and 12Ga), it seems now that its better to spend that money on the S223 and add all the features I like on the Golani to the Saiga. Its just that, we've all been there and seen it, go to the trouble of getting some base item and modding the krap out of it only to find that there's one available ready made for less than what you already spent (not including time and effort) altogether. Thats the real debate here. So I think I have my answer. I now can move forward on my next project feeling confident that I am not "re-inventing the wheel". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
funnelcake 0 Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 The Century-built Golani rifles are a crapshoot & shouldn't be confused with an IMI Galil. Here's a recount of my recent experiences with both a Golani & Saiga .223: I really wanted a Galil-type rifle & had read the good, bad & the ugly about Century's latest concoction (mostly ugly). Hoping the pipe wrenches had been omitted from the fitting process for these I ordered a newer Golani with GLN prefix serial number & alleged "Caspian" investment cast receiver (supposedly the "everything's fixed" variant): >After receipt of said rifle, initial clean/ grease revealed sand or blasting media stuck to the top cover & in the various cavities of the receiver. Assumed to be from some step in finish process. Also noticeable was a bit more than normal contact between the bolt carrier & rails/ ejector and the bolt carrier actually moved upward noticeably on it's way to being in battery. >1st trip to the Range...~100 rounds fired, ~25+ stoppages (the damage this rifle did to loaded ammo & brass was crazy). >Mag's were the 2 steel units supplied with purchase, 2 brand-new Orlites, and a 12-round "target" mag (this mag is actually worse than the rifle; a piece of jam-o-matic junk). >The only way we could get more than one round without a failure was using the Orlite's & they'd usually run 3-5 before a stoppage occurred. >Post-range cleaning & inspection showed the bolt carrier was making significant contact with the left side of the receiver and had actually rounded off a section of the leading edge. >The above was the last straw. Obtained RMA, packaged-up & returned. Still wanting a .223 AK variant I happened on a 16" Saiga .223 with skeleton stock that appeared very lightly used at a local shop: >1st trip to the Range...~100 rounds fired, 0 stoppages & a big 'ole smile... >Enough said. I'm not saying you can't get a Golani that will run OK but odds are not the greatest. A few additional items that might help: >The Golani's are built with well-used parts kits (I remember reading somewhere they were former Guatemalan military arms). The barrel and receiver are pretty much the only "new" parts. A buyer is paying $600+ bucks for a used rifle. Not a big deal as most of my firearms purchases are used but a Century build isn't exactly purchased for its collector value. >The rifle was pretty accurate. I managed a 3-rd. 1.6" 75-yard group in between plucking out distorted brass. During my research I found a number of folks stating the barrels were/ are being made by Green Mountain & I haven't heard a cursory word about their stuff. >I would not buy one of these from anyone with less than a really good reputation for customer service. The ability to obtain a hassle-free refund is likely going to be an important part of the process. >The Saiga rifle (and this one is hard to type as I keep shaking my head) is at least $200 bucks cheaper than a Golani. Funnel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vintagedude88 16 Posted May 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Funnelcake - Thanks for your very constructive comments and advice. Welcome to the forum and a great first post! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
justinmcmillion 77 Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) Going to the range today, just picked up a PSL.. Going to put the POSP 4x on my saiga .223 (got a 4-16 for the PSL) Ill give a range report on accuracy. since Ive only shot it with a 4MOA red dot And btw the MSA adapter is amazing, Ive never had a failure of any sort with it. I did however have some failures with the 30rd surfire mag. Funny how a mag that is designed for a totally different gun works better than a mag designed specifically for that gun. I found that the classic Millitary metal mags work the best I also found that my 100rd beta mag fits!!! but getting it out was almost impossible since the left drum was retaining the mag release.... And when you take the MSA adapter out your factory mags fit as tight as they did before the milling. Mine has dimples so it might affect ones that dont? Oh yeah check this out XS sight I think with that rear sight on a rail like the dph or you can get one from various sites for $30 and then put a rail on the front and have a flip up sight on it, might make for a good set of Irons! The problem with the rear irons is finding one that sets low, this might be a solution? Saw this in the s .308 forum Edited May 31, 2009 by justinmcmillion Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tsc91 9 Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) I'm about to find out for myself which one is better. I already own a Saiga .223, and I just put a Golani on layaway. I hope I don't regret it. Edited May 31, 2009 by tsc91 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james lambert 3,059 Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 The IMI gun in my opinion is the best of the AK world. The Golani is NOT anywhere close to an IMI ...Good idea but very poor workmanship. Jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 The IMI gun in my opinion is the best of the AK world. Now you've gone and done it: The "best" AK - Saiga-12.com The Golani is NOT anywhere close to an IMI ...Good idea but very poor workmanship. . . and it is a crying shame that higher standards were not expected or enforced by Century. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PinkFloyd 63 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Ak receiver rails... ick... those are ghastly... If I'm gonna mount optics I'll use the side rail... Speaking of which, anyone know a good russian red dot that goes on the side rail? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Ak receiver rails... ick... those are ghastly... If I'm gonna mount optics I'll use the side rail... Speaking of which, anyone know a good russian red dot that goes on the side rail? PK-AS PK-A Kobra Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shellshock1918 1 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 The Russians only used a milled receiver because their metallurgy at the time did not allow them to go with the stamped receiver originally designed for the AK. You sure that the AK was originally designed to have a stamped receiver? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) The Russians only used a milled receiver because their metallurgy at the time did not allow them to go with the stamped receiver originally designed for the AK. You sure that the AK was originally designed to have a stamped receiver? Yes, I am quite sure. Edited to add another picture of the Type 1 Kalashnikov Edited June 1, 2009 by nalioth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mstranglr 9 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 The Russians only used a milled receiver because their metallurgy at the time did not allow them to go with the stamped receiver originally designed for the AK. You sure that the AK was originally designed to have a stamped receiver? Yep, generation 1 production AK-47s had a stamped receiver - as it was part of the original design, ease of manufacture. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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