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Actual selection of your home defense gun


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i have a cz-75 under my bed & a mag lite. it may not be the best defensive weapon i own, but i use it in ipsc competitions & feel like my familiarity, confidence, & practice with that weapon is better than anything else i have. a debate that adds another dynamic is what kind of weapon do you keep in your car. for years i had an feg 9x18 that i bought for about $100. i recently switched to a cz82 just for the added magazine capacity. i would say the odds of getting a gun stolen from your car would make carrying an inexpensive pistol more practical if you do keep one in your car all the time.

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If it's a matter of life and death.. the weapon served it's purpose....

My focus would be on winning any confrontation....

I can ALWAYS get another kick ass S-12...

 

Also, I'm protected by a well trained, beautiful woman...

What court is gonna convict this all American cutie for defending her self....

DSC01785.jpg

DSC00660-1.jpg

 

 

Sarah Palin is going to Jail...

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Judge Magnum

 

 

Hello, WJ

The response should be obvious, with you involved....A Taurus Magnum "Judge" w/ 3" 000 shells.

If they aren't dead or runnin' after five of them, then the big stuff comes out.

 

Respectfully, as always,

guido2

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I based my gun selection on personal experiences witnessed sitting on several juries over the years. I have been absolutely amazed and shocked at the response of individuals when challenged on the evidence we heard in court. "I don't care what they said in court, I think he did it". Now that's real scary to me. My wife is an officer of the court and you would be absolutely shocked at the stories she would share. The law is one thing but perception is everything. F. Lee Bailey once said the jury is the weakest link in the system and I believe that to be absolutely correct. Also for folks that own their own businesses owning a second weapon is a must. Once the authorities take the weapon you just shot the crack head with, you don't want to be caught empty handed waiting for your day in court. It may sound really cool to have this and that and I will do this and that but the bottom line you never want to shoot anyone unless absolutely necessary. That is the reason a pump shotgun is my first choice. The reasoning and hope for me is that the criminal understands the non-verbal communication it provides and will sprout wings and fly.

 

Be safe and be sure,

Good luck!

Yakdung

 

:)

 

Yep, I agree. I sat as a juror twice. I totally lost my faith in juries after those experiences. Not that the concept is bad, its just that many courts only have access to welfare recipients and full-time pot smokers for their jury pools - because most smart hard-working folks get out of it (like I do now :rolleyes: ). I was the only person with a job on the last one. Lots of scary comments like "I can tell when someones a racist by the way they look", "I don't like the way he stared at the other guy - thats what guilty people do", "folks who makes promises is always lying", "I don't trust anything from those store videos - they probably use a computer or something to change peoples faces around".

 

I had never thought twice about my livelihood being handed over to the wisdom of a jury, until I was on one - now it SCARES the living CRAP out of me!

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My preference is the 870 12 ga with smooth bore slug barrel and mag extension, loaded with bird shot (in my house, i don't need to shoot more than 10 yards anywhere) Gun looks just like a police shotgun, and would be very hard to argue that i used excessive force since it is essentially the same as the police use. I would like to get a light on it, and i think having a light may be good in a legal discussion, knowing that you are a responsible gun owner, willing to take the time to ID your target rather than blowing your teenage kid away as they are trying to sneak outside/inside for a smoke or something.

 

Add to it the fact that NOTHING gets the attention of a bad guy more than the sound of a pump shotgun getting racked (ok, maybe the a warning shot gets their attention more).....the sound is pretty much piss inducing in most.

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I am in the awkward spot of working with the Cole's, as their Sales Rep, and I am not exactly difficult to find. Even though Company inventory and product isnt kept at my apartment, I do run the risk of someone heavily armed (and armored) actually kicking my door in and trying to "rob" me. I load 15 pellet and slug. Bring it. One of you is coming with me, thats a promise :) (I do know the difference between police and criminals, like the rest of us, I know what I just typed isnt going to be misinterpreted, RIGHT?)

 

I have always kept a shotgun ready as far as I can recall, (my preference for #1 was a mossberg pump, actually - then I found the saiga12) loaded with either slugs or slugs and buck.

 

I tend to not spend a lot of money on actual guns, per piece. Heck, the ones I have to sell or dont like and sell, I almost exclusively deal with people I know, and am fair as hell about it. Ask my friends. I think of a gun as more of a tool, really, and yeh, I know Im just a civvie "puke".

 

I am not worried about what a jury thinks. Im going to do what I have to do, and thats that.

 

WJ, you have made an excellent point, Sir, and I completely agree with you.

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Well, not to add or hijack WJ's post but does training become an issue as well? My Marine Corps training has tought me 2 in the chest and 1 in the head, no matter what weapon I use I'm a trained killer right? Add the fact that I have been to and completed the Combat Marksmanship Insructors course!! OMG I'M GOING DOWNTOWN!! :electric_shock:

 

As far as my HD shotgun is concerned it is a old Winchester pump, inherited from my grandfather R.I.P., Model 12-12ga, 18" barrel with a poly-choke. I have had this weapon for the better part of 12 years and she has NEVER malfunctioned, jammed, FTF or FTE on me once. (KNOCK ON WOOD) I keep her loaded with OO-Buck and the choke wide open 24/7! My back up is a Glock 9mm with a 33round mag, because you can NEVER have too much ammo on hand, on the wifes side of the bed and my Kimber .45 full size on mine.

 

If that doesnt get the job done then whom ever came in knew me well and was prepared for a battle. :killer:

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My preference is the 870 12 ga with smooth bore slug barrel and mag extension, loaded with bird shot (in my house, i don't need to shoot more than 10 yards anywhere) Gun looks just like a police shotgun, and would be very hard to argue that i used excessive force since it is essentially the same as the police use. I would like to get a light on it, and i think having a light may be good in a legal discussion, knowing that you are a responsible gun owner, willing to take the time to ID your target rather than blowing your teenage kid away as they are trying to sneak outside/inside for a smoke or something.

i fully agree that ID'ing your target is very important and responsible...and having a gun that looks no worse than standard police issue could help you out, depending on where you live. it sounds like you are concerned about over penetration, but IMO you may want to check into the ballistic effects of birdshot on non-avian attackers. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381023 shows 7.5shot from 10ft, not 10yds shot from a 24" barrel. the penetration in the gel is only about 3-5 inches..being that ballistic gel doesn't simulate a breast bone (just flesh), i would expect birdshot from any distance other than point blank to just leave a seriously nasty gnarly wound, but not fully penetrate the breast bone. at point blank range, any shot load will be devastating.

Bird%201%20Side%20View.JPG

 

i can't find the link, but i once found a comparison of all common 12ga loads in ballistic gel. the results pretty much said that BB-shot and T-shot had acceptable penetration, #1 buck was "ideal", and 00buck was pretty much overkill, but tried and true non-the-less. i feel confident with remington reduced recoil 00buck in 12ga and #3buck in 20ga. but after seeing those gel images of birdshot, i, personally, wouldn't go any smaller than BB.

 

if you live in a state that does not have a castle doctrine, then you will be civilly liable for any injuries the attacker sustains, even if you were justified in using lethal force...so if you are justified, your initial force should be lethal

 

just my opinion, tell me to STFU if you want

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It seems some people are getting the idea that having a certain gun designated as an HD gun, means you don't give a shit about the life of your family or yourself :rolleyes: .

 

Do you really think that if it came down to it, someone wouldn't use a gun that was not their HD gun, simply because it's not their HD gun?? Get a grip.

 

Do you actually think it would go down like this?..............

Shit. I hear someone breaking in.

<goes to grab the gun they have for HD>

Ohhhh nooooo! It's downstairs in the extra room. I forgot to bring it back up after I was done cleaning it!! Shiiiiit!!

<Significant other says: "Honey, just grab something else out of the safe in the closet.>

No way, honey! I can't! They're not my HD guns, and they're too eeevviiiilll looking!!!

<Significant other says: "Well you better do something. I can hear them coming down the hall.>

Well, it looks like I'm going to have to let them kill you, me and the kids. Ya know, being that everything within reach is evil-looking.

Nice knowin' ya.

 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Of course not. If the situation calls for a gun, and the one you've trained with and would rather use for HD purposes, is not accessible, any logical human being is going to use whatever triggered lead throwing device they have at hand. Whether it be a plain-jane 870 or a gun worth more than your car.

 

But to imply that planning ahead and designating a particular gun for HD is akin to not giving a shit about your life or the life of your kids/wife/husband..........is "silly".

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22 shooter - you sound as if you assume that some of us dont treat our HD weapon as if it was our alarm clock or cell phone.

 

now, if I did happen to have a collection that included anything that actually had some real value to it, I probably wouldnt grab the valuable piece, just because I wouldnt ever think of it as a tool, but a toy instead, and thus wouldnt reach for it in a time of need, if the situation got involved and funky.

 

My HD weapons are all loaded, and sitting muzzle down in their various resting places. I wouldnt suggest storage of your pretty gun like this, or even your beater stored like this around the campfire, but in the house? think about it. you can grab it, and retreat, and in one motion bring it to bear, with the gun stored muzzle down. with it stored the other way, well, good luck on that. that half second is whats gonna get you killed, especially since you now have to account for closing the distance by several feet.

 

Tools and toys. I guess thats what this topic is really about, sorta.....

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i can't find the link, but i once found a comparison of all common 12ga loads in ballistic gel. the results pretty much said that BB-shot and T-shot had acceptable penetration, #1 buck was "ideal", and 00buck was pretty much overkill, but tried and true non-the-less. i feel confident with remington reduced recoil 00buck in 12ga and #3buck in 20ga. but after seeing those gel images of birdshot, i, personally, wouldn't go any smaller than BB.

 

The site is

 

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

 

it's down right now, great site though.

 

 

who says I don't contribute anything?

Edited by saigafun12345
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22 shooter - you sound as if you assume that some of us dont treat our HD weapon as if it was our alarm clock or cell phone.

 

I have no idea what this even means.

 

I think he means it is checked and positioned every night before going to bed, like setting the alarm or turning off a phone ringer, and every morning, like putting your cell phone in your pocket, and turning off the alarm. Its part of the daily routine, and not something you have to go looking for when you sense a potential emergency.

 

As far as the OP's question, ive always thought the really mean looking guns, with laserlights and sextuple rails only are toys, really They might be fun to shoot, or more often than not, fun to look at, but they arent really meant for battle. When it comes to a HD gun, like a battle gun, i think the maxim of the day is the same: K.I.S.S... you have to remember when you wake up in the middle of the night to a thud, you are going to be groggy and probably arent going to remember how to deploy the IR laser and nightvision rangefinding scope anyways, let alone the button release on the flipdown grip while setting your three position sling, while trying to see how many rounds are left in your windowed magazines and adjusting your length of pull from body armor to pajama length. You are going to be tired, and lucky if you remember where the butstock goes, let alone to take off the safety. Plain jane guns dont look that agressive, and the weapon you use should be the one you train with, which im guessing if gonna end up looking pretty worn, and not like you have had it sitting in your safe for years, just waiting for an opportunity to shoot someone with it.

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My preference is the 870 12 ga with smooth bore slug barrel and mag extension, loaded with bird shot (in my house, i don't need to shoot more than 10 yards anywhere) Gun looks just like a police shotgun, and would be very hard to argue that i used excessive force since it is essentially the same as the police use. I would like to get a light on it, and i think having a light may be good in a legal discussion, knowing that you are a responsible gun owner, willing to take the time to ID your target rather than blowing your teenage kid away as they are trying to sneak outside/inside for a smoke or something.

i fully agree that ID'ing your target is very important and responsible...and having a gun that looks no worse than standard police issue could help you out, depending on where you live. it sounds like you are concerned about over penetration, but IMO you may want to check into the ballistic effects of birdshot on non-avian attackers. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381023 shows 7.5shot from 10ft, not 10yds shot from a 24" barrel. the penetration in the gel is only about 3-5 inches..being that ballistic gel doesn't simulate a breast bone (just flesh), i would expect birdshot from any distance other than point blank to just leave a seriously nasty gnarly wound, but not fully penetrate the breast bone. at point blank range, any shot load will be devastating.

Bird%201%20Side%20View.JPG

 

i can't find the link, but i once found a comparison of all common 12ga loads in ballistic gel. the results pretty much said that BB-shot and T-shot had acceptable penetration, #1 buck was "ideal", and 00buck was pretty much overkill, but tried and true non-the-less. i feel confident with remington reduced recoil 00buck in 12ga and #3buck in 20ga. but after seeing those gel images of birdshot, i, personally, wouldn't go any smaller than BB.

 

if you live in a state that does not have a castle doctrine, then you will be civilly liable for any injuries the attacker sustains, even if you were justified in using lethal force...so if you are justified, your initial force should be lethal

 

just my opinion, tell me to STFU if you want

 

Good post, and true. Birdshot is not good for self defense (unless you are being attacked by zombie crows). Wounds look nasty, but are shallow and superficial. Dick Chaney's hunting buddy would definitely recommend against bird shot for home defense.

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22 shooter - you sound as if you assume that some of us dont treat our HD weapon as if it was our alarm clock or cell phone.

 

I have no idea what this even means.

 

I think he means it is checked and positioned every night before going to bed, like setting the alarm or turning off a phone ringer, and every morning, like putting your cell phone in your pocket, and turning off the alarm. Its part of the daily routine, and not something you have to go looking for when you sense a potential emergency.

 

As far as the OP's question, ive always thought the really mean looking guns, with laserlights and sextuple rails only are toys, really They might be fun to shoot, or more often than not, fun to look at, but they arent really meant for battle. When it comes to a HD gun, like a battle gun, i think the maxim of the day is the same: K.I.S.S... you have to remember when you wake up in the middle of the night to a thud, you are going to be groggy and probably arent going to remember how to deploy the IR laser and nightvision rangefinding scope anyways, let alone the button release on the flipdown grip while setting your three position sling, while trying to see how many rounds are left in your windowed magazines and adjusting your length of pull from body armor to pajama length. You are going to be tired, and lucky if you remember where the butstock goes, let alone to take off the safety. Plain jane guns dont look that agressive, and the weapon you use should be the one you train with, which im guessing if gonna end up looking pretty worn, and not like you have had it sitting in your safe for years, just waiting for an opportunity to shoot someone with it.

 

Exactly!!!!

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ive always thought the really mean looking guns, with laserlights and sextuple rails only are toys, really They might be fun to shoot, or more often than not, fun to look at, but they arent really meant for battle. When it comes to a HD gun, like a battle gun, i think the maxim of the day is the same: K.I.S.S... you have to remember when you wake up in the middle of the night to a thud, you are going to be groggy and probably arent going to remember how to deploy the IR laser and nightvision rangefinding scope anyways, let alone the button release on the flipdown grip while setting your three position sling, while trying to see how many rounds are left in your windowed magazines and adjusting your length of pull from body armor to pajama length. You are going to be tired, and lucky if you remember where the butstock goes, let alone to take off the safety. Plain jane guns dont look that agressive, and the weapon you use should be the one you train with, which im guessing if gonna end up looking pretty worn, and not like you have had it sitting in your safe for years, just waiting for an opportunity to shoot someone with it.

 

It is interesting what you said above as many of my fellow Marines and I have a quad-railed, VFG, IR laser & light, to include the ACOG here in Iraq...not really meant for battle...Hmmm? I think your wrong. This weapon my Marines sleep with, if it is required, and I mean sleep with by slinging the weapon and placing it in their arms while dug in and falling asleep counting on it to be within arms reach, locked and loaded, should shit hit the fan as it is so often said here. That thud I hear would be IDF, for you InDirect Fire, a mortar or missle incoming not a prowler bumping into my hall table and yes the IR floodlight and NVG's come in handy very much. The buttstock goes in your shoulder pocket and is there via muscle memory, round count is simple first 3 and last 3 are tracers...any more questions?

 

What does this lead up too you ask.....train, train, train! Whatever weapon you have for defense make it a part of you, become skilled in it's operation, it's strength's & weakness's.

 

Franz....you ever serve a day in the military? Don't assume was it or isn't meant for battle unless you already got the t-shirt.

 

Signing Off,

MCASgt New River

Al Asad, Iraq

METOC NCOIC

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ALL of my "go to's" are AK variants... Bare bones, basic AK config....

My shotty is rigged just like my 7.62x39 just like my wifes 5.45x39....

 

Training is the key! I can LIVE with a conviction... If I'm painted as "Evil" for being prepared... so be it...

I may not survive if I fumble when it maters...

 

 

And yes, I have been there and PRINTED the Tshirt....LOL!!!

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Have served proudly in the fighting 96th Army Combat JAG officers' Basic Course (among several other military courses) I have no combat experience. I certainly defer to my friend, MCASgt New River. However, I think the simple point about having too much technology for home defense has merit. Isn't a tritium sight, maybe a flashlight, and six or seven shell capacity enough for 99% of the likely home invasion situations?

 

WJ

Edited by WarriorJudge
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ALL of my "go to's" are AK variants... Bare bones, basic AK config....

My shotty is rigged just like my 7.62x39 just like my wifes 5.45x39....

 

Training is the key! I can LIVE with a conviction... If I'm painted as "Evil" for being prepared... so be it...

I may not survive if I fumble when it maters...

 

 

And yes, I have been there and PRINTED the Tshirt....LOL!!!

 

 

If you get in that sticky legal situation, I'm still licensed to practice law in Michigan. (Well, my license is inactive as I don't practice there and I can't represent people in their individual capacities due to my job), but I'd be there for you in spirit!

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ALL of my "go to's" are AK variants... Bare bones, basic AK config....

My shotty is rigged just like my 7.62x39 just like my wifes 5.45x39....

 

Training is the key! I can LIVE with a conviction... If I'm painted as "Evil" for being prepared... so be it...

I may not survive if I fumble when it maters...

 

 

And yes, I have been there and PRINTED the Tshirt....LOL!!!

 

 

If you get in that sticky legal situation, I'm still licensed to practice law in Michigan. (Well, my license is inactive as I don't practice there and I can't represent people in their individual capacities due to my job), but I'd be there for you in spirit!

 

Do you really thing the "weapon selection" would really be an issue with a forced entry and Michigan no retreat laws???

Someone breaks in to harm me or my family... and I use an S12 or a Romy G over an 870 it's gonna be an issue???

 

I'm Soooo glad I make Tshirts for a living....

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ALL of my "go to's" are AK variants... Bare bones, basic AK config....

My shotty is rigged just like my 7.62x39 just like my wifes 5.45x39....

 

Training is the key! I can LIVE with a conviction... If I'm painted as "Evil" for being prepared... so be it...

I may not survive if I fumble when it maters...

 

 

And yes, I have been there and PRINTED the Tshirt....LOL!!!

 

 

If you get in that sticky legal situation, I'm still licensed to practice law in Michigan. (Well, my license is inactive as I don't practice there and I can't represent people in their individual capacities due to my job), but I'd be there for you in spirit!

 

Do you really thing the "weapon selection" would really be an issue with a forced entry and Michigan no retreat laws???

Someone breaks in to harm me or my family... and I use an S12 or a Romy G over an 870 it's gonna be an issue???

 

I'm Soooo glad I make Tshirts for a living....

 

No, I think from what I have reviewed, Michigan has a pretty good legislative cloak enacted to provide a legal safe harbor if you need to defend your home. North Carolina is also pretty protective of a homeowner's right to defend their "castle." There appear to be exceptions, such as no protection if you are committing an unlawful act, or if domestic violence is involved, etc., but there are very few absolutes in the law.

 

As always, when in doubt, seek the advice of your own attorney.

 

WJ

Edited by WarriorJudge
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22 shooter - you sound as if you assume that some of us dont treat our HD weapon as if it was our alarm clock or cell phone.

 

I have no idea what this even means.

 

I think he means it is checked and positioned every night before going to bed, like setting the alarm or turning off a phone ringer, and every morning, like putting your cell phone in your pocket, and turning off the alarm. Its part of the daily routine, and not something you have to go looking for when you sense a potential emergency.

 

As far as the OP's question, ive always thought the really mean looking guns, with laserlights and sextuple rails only are toys, really They might be fun to shoot, or more often than not, fun to look at, but they arent really meant for battle. When it comes to a HD gun, like a battle gun, i think the maxim of the day is the same: K.I.S.S... you have to remember when you wake up in the middle of the night to a thud, you are going to be groggy and probably arent going to remember how to deploy the IR laser and nightvision rangefinding scope anyways, let alone the button release on the flipdown grip while setting your three position sling, while trying to see how many rounds are left in your windowed magazines and adjusting your length of pull from body armor to pajama length. You are going to be tired, and lucky if you remember where the butstock goes, let alone to take off the safety. Plain jane guns dont look that agressive, and the weapon you use should be the one you train with, which im guessing if gonna end up looking pretty worn, and not like you have had it sitting in your safe for years, just waiting for an opportunity to shoot someone with it.

 

Exactly!!!!

Now let me get this right, the fact that i've beat the hell out of my S-12 would work in my favor? forget all that you'll be lucky to remember where to put the buttstock BS, I know where that goes. Besides, MY S-12 isn't mall Ninja'd out by most standards.

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Honestly, the most effective home defense weapon I have ever owned was my Rottweiler. Gentle as a kitten with family but ferocious as a t-rex with uninvited guests. Even when the houses next to me were burglarized - that bitch kept my house scumbag-free for 15 years before her passing this February. When I was away on business, hunting, or fishing trips that dog had access to the whole house (doggy door) and backyard and never let her guard down. Guns don't protect your home and family while your asleep or away, but a good dog always does. I remember watching a documentary on the Natgeo channel where thieves said they always avoided homes with big dogs in them. Ive got another puppy getting ready to train now.

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Plus one on that!

 

No matter where we are in the house or even downstairs in the basement / shop, my Shepherd always knows, and alerts me to the fact that we have a visitor...long before there is a knock at the door.

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Outstanding topic WJ!

 

I have never put a personal view on this issue (even though I am in the criminal justice business). I tend to side on the thought that you should use what YOU are best prepaired to use, a tricked out S-12, a standard Glock 22 or a $200 22LR rifle. Should it come down to it, then it is up to your defense and the fact that you shouldn't have unlawfully used the weapon to keep you from being convicted.

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Outstanding topic WJ!

 

I have never put a personal view on this issue (even though I am in the criminal justice business). I tend to side on the thought that you should use what YOU are best prepaired to use, a tricked out S-12, a standard Glock 22 or a $200 22LR rifle. Should it come down to it, then it is up to your defense and the fact that you shouldn't have unlawfully used the weapon to keep you from being convicted.

EXACTLY, the tool chosen should be a non issue..

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Honestly, the most effective home defense weapon I have ever owned was my Rottweiler. Gentle as a kitten with family but ferocious as a t-rex with uninvited guests. Even when the houses next to me were burglarized - that bitch kept my house scumbag-free for 15 years before her passing this February. When I was away on business, hunting, or fishing trips that dog had access to the whole house (doggy door) and backyard and never let her guard down. Guns don't protect your home and family while your asleep or away, but a good dog always does. I remember watching a documentary on the Natgeo channel where thieves said they always avoided homes with big dogs in them. Ive got another puppy getting ready to train now.

+1 for a good guard dog. sorry about your loss..a great dog can be a rare find. got an 11yr old ridgeback and i couldn't ask for her to do a better job...sad thing is, i know she won't live forever, so i'll need to train a new recruit in a couple years so she can retire.

Edited by Modiano
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