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Elkhound

Actual selection of your home defense gun

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I completely agree with the idea of a dog being your "early warning system" and your first line of defense. I am not sure that my Basset Hound would be much of a deterrent to a burglar or home intruder if they saw her, but her growl and bark are pretty ferocious. She is, however, very good at alerting us to noises outside and people walking near the house, which we praise her and encourage her to do.

 

She is getting a bit old and I have been dreading the day when she passes. While there are a lot of great choices out there, I will probably get another Basset. Maybe I could get a Basset puppy and a guard dog style puppy at the same time and they might grow up thinking they are sisters and actually get along with each other.

 

 

WJ

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22 shooter - you sound as if you assume that some of us dont treat our HD weapon as if it was our alarm clock or cell phone.

 

I have no idea what this even means.

 

I think he means it is checked and positioned every night before going to bed, like setting the alarm or turning off a phone ringer, and every morning, like putting your cell phone in your pocket, and turning off the alarm. Its part of the daily routine, and not something you have to go looking for when you sense a potential emergency.

 

If that's what he means, then he completely misunderstood my post.

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My preference is the 870 12 ga with smooth bore slug barrel and mag extension, loaded with bird shot (in my house, i don't need to shoot more than 10 yards anywhere) Gun looks just like a police shotgun, and would be very hard to argue that i used excessive force since it is essentially the same as the police use. I would like to get a light on it, and i think having a light may be good in a legal discussion, knowing that you are a responsible gun owner, willing to take the time to ID your target rather than blowing your teenage kid away as they are trying to sneak outside/inside for a smoke or something.

i fully agree that ID'ing your target is very important and responsible...and having a gun that looks no worse than standard police issue could help you out, depending on where you live. it sounds like you are concerned about over penetration, but IMO you may want to check into the ballistic effects of birdshot on non-avian attackers. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381023 shows 7.5shot from 10ft, not 10yds shot from a 24" barrel. the penetration in the gel is only about 3-5 inches..being that ballistic gel doesn't simulate a breast bone (just flesh), i would expect birdshot from any distance other than point blank to just leave a seriously nasty gnarly wound, but not fully penetrate the breast bone. at point blank range, any shot load will be devastating.

Bird%201%20Side%20View.JPG

 

i can't find the link, but i once found a comparison of all common 12ga loads in ballistic gel. the results pretty much said that BB-shot and T-shot had acceptable penetration, #1 buck was "ideal", and 00buck was pretty much overkill, but tried and true non-the-less. i feel confident with remington reduced recoil 00buck in 12ga and #3buck in 20ga. but after seeing those gel images of birdshot, i, personally, wouldn't go any smaller than BB.

 

if you live in a state that does not have a castle doctrine, then you will be civilly liable for any injuries the attacker sustains, even if you were justified in using lethal force...so if you are justified, your initial force should be lethal

 

 

just my opinion, tell me to STFU if you want

 

Good post, and true. Birdshot is not good for self defense (unless you are being attacked by zombie crows). Wounds look nasty, but are shallow and superficial. Dick Chaney's hunting buddy would definitely recommend against bird shot for home defense.

 

 

Opinions and advice are always welcome.

 

yes i am very worried about overpenetration, i have a 2 year old daughter to think about. I settled on bird shot after watching a episode of Best defense (i think it was best defense anyway.) They did a demo with different guns and loads and show that at close ranges bird shot should be plenty to stop a BG without going through several drywall walls. That said i do have 5 rds of buckshot on the stock for more impact if needed. Plus the 9mm is always handy if needed as well.

 

All that said.... i may compromise a bit and move up to some of my steel shot goose loads.

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MMM. I hope all you guys picking out your pc gun to use and then searched the internet for the most effective ammo to use against a poor minority youth just trying to get in from the cold. don't get thrown in prison for using that ammo. The ex prosecutor already said he would go for us if we used a non pc shotgun so imagine what they'd do when they confiscate your computer and find that you've been looking a balistic jelly pictures!!! :rolleyes: Better to just grab your ankles and let the intruders have their way with you rather than face prison for using the wrong ammo or heavens forbid a combat weapon.

 

All this discussion has worried me so bad I've locked up all my evil weapons and now rely on a nerf bat and Cpt massageaboob on speed dial. :horror: to save me.

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ive always thought the really mean looking guns, with laserlights and sextuple rails only are toys, really They might be fun to shoot, or more often than not, fun to look at, but they arent really meant for battle. When it comes to a HD gun, like a battle gun, i think the maxim of the day is the same: K.I.S.S... you have to remember when you wake up in the middle of the night to a thud, you are going to be groggy and probably arent going to remember how to deploy the IR laser and nightvision rangefinding scope anyways, let alone the button release on the flipdown grip while setting your three position sling, while trying to see how many rounds are left in your windowed magazines and adjusting your length of pull from body armor to pajama length. You are going to be tired, and lucky if you remember where the butstock goes, let alone to take off the safety. Plain jane guns dont look that agressive, and the weapon you use should be the one you train with, which im guessing if gonna end up looking pretty worn, and not like you have had it sitting in your safe for years, just waiting for an opportunity to shoot someone with it.

 

It is interesting what you said above as many of my fellow Marines and I have a quad-railed, VFG, IR laser & light, to include the ACOG here in Iraq...not really meant for battle...Hmmm? I think your wrong. This weapon my Marines sleep with, if it is required, and I mean sleep with by slinging the weapon and placing it in their arms while dug in and falling asleep counting on it to be within arms reach, locked and loaded, should shit hit the fan as it is so often said here. That thud I hear would be IDF, for you InDirect Fire, a mortar or missle incoming not a prowler bumping into my hall table and yes the IR floodlight and NVG's come in handy very much. The buttstock goes in your shoulder pocket and is there via muscle memory, round count is simple first 3 and last 3 are tracers...any more questions?

 

What does this lead up too you ask.....train, train, train! Whatever weapon you have for defense make it a part of you, become skilled in it's operation, it's strength's & weakness's.

 

Franz....you ever serve a day in the military? Don't assume was it or isn't meant for battle unless you already got the t-shirt.

 

Signing Off,

MCASgt New River

Al Asad, Iraq

METOC NCOIC

 

I'm sorry, but that's awfully condescending of you. I'm sure the quad rails and VFGs are OK for battle, and I bet you and your buddies are able to operate it upon waking up. But sorry, I'm not a military man, I don't sleep with a full auto rifle slung across my body. I sleep in a pair of boxers with some shitty late night B movie on the TV. I want something SIMPLE to reach for.We are civillians discussing HOME DEFENSE not wartime procedures.

 

Signing off,

Saigafuck54321

Union, NJ

BUNCHA LETTERZ

Edited by saigafun12345

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I'm sorry, but that's awfully condescending of you. I'm sure the quad rails and VFGs are OK for battle, and I bet you and your buddies are able to operate it upon waking up. But sorry, I'm not a military man, I don't sleep with a full auto rifle slung across my body. I sleep in a pair of boxers with some shitty late night B movie on the TV. I want something SIMPLE to reach for.We are civillians discussing HOME DEFENSE not wartime procedures.

 

Signing off,

Saigafuck54321

Union, NJ

BUNCHA LETTERZ

 

 

I knew you jerzy jerkoffs were soft.....

In Detroit, they issued you an assault rifle upon enrollment in public schools....

 

I have not been Military in like 15 years.... but I live how I train... and I train EVERYDAY!!!!

For HOME DEFENSE!!!

 

Home Business, I carry 24/7

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Opinions and advice are always welcome.

 

yes i am very worried about overpenetration, i have a 2 year old daughter to think about. I settled on bird shot after watching a episode of Best defense (i think it was best defense anyway.) They did a demo with different guns and loads and show that at close ranges bird shot should be plenty to stop a BG without going through several drywall walls. That said i do have 5 rds of buckshot on the stock for more impact if needed. Plus the 9mm is always handy if needed as well.

 

All that said.... i may compromise a bit and move up to some of my steel shot goose loads.

if possible, you could set up a bookshelf to act as a backstop to protect your daughter's room. that should stop anything you'd want to fire in the house

 

i've never done any ballistic tests myself, but it seems that any round that will stop a bad guy will go through several walls. one of these days, i'm going to bring a few slabs of pork ribs and water jugs to the range and see for myself what minimum effective shotgun loading is

Edited by Modiano

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I'm sorry, but that's awfully condescending of you. I'm sure the quad rails and VFGs are OK for battle, and I bet you and your buddies are able to operate it upon waking up. But sorry, I'm not a military man, I don't sleep with a full auto rifle slung across my body. I sleep in a pair of boxers with some shitty late night B movie on the TV. I want something SIMPLE to reach for.We are civillians discussing HOME DEFENSE not wartime procedures.

 

Signing off,

Saigafuck54321

Union, NJ

BUNCHA LETTERZ

 

 

I knew you jerzy jerkoffs were soft.....

In Detroit, they issued you an assault rifle upon enrollment in public schools....

 

I have not been Military in like 15 years.... but I live how I train... and I train EVERYDAY!!!!

For HOME DEFENSE!!!

 

Home Business, I carry 24/7

 

Meh, we had race riots in Newark too.

 

Detriot Riots - 43 Dead 467 Injured

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_Street_Riot

 

Newark Riots 26 Dead 725 Injured

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newark_riots

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WJ,

 

Plain jane Remington 870 kept around the house for self defense. Plus all of the duty gear and batbelt items are never far away. The biggest issue is that many people never know where they will be in the house when a possible intruder comes knocking. But they have to get past the dog first, which just may give me enough time to make it anywhere I need to go. Great topic though.

Edited by GeorgiaPD

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GeorgiaPD, thanks for the reassurance - A rather simple 870 is my home defense go to gun. So, I guess I made a good choice there.

 

But, now I am going to splinter off my own thread a bit.

 

I do not have a single handgun - not one. I do not intend to get one until the kids leave the house. So, what is my fall back after the dog and after the shotgun or if I can't get to the shotgun? I have several years of various Martial Arts training, so even though I'm no longer a spring chicken, I likely would have a few tricks up my old sleeve if the conflict went hand-to-hand.

 

 

However, what are the best options say from 15 feet out on into grappling distance? Pepper spray, taser, baseball bat???

 

 

WJ

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GeorgiaPD, thanks for the reassurance - A rather simple 870 is my home defense go to gun. So, I guess I made a good choice there.

 

But, now I am going to splinter off my own thread a bit.

 

I do not have a single handgun - not one. I do not intend to get one until the kids leave the house. So, what is my fall back after the dog and after the shotgun or if I can't get to the shotgun? I have several years of various Martial Arts training, so even though I'm no longer a spring chicken, I likely would have a few tricks up my old sleeve if the conflict went hand-to-hand.

 

 

However, what are the best options say from 15 feet out on into grappling distance? Pepper spray, taser, baseball bat???

 

 

WJ

 

WJ

Buy this Video!!!!!

http://www.suarezinternational.com/interfacetrailer.wmv

 

Also, my personal fave for 0-15 foot..... under 3" fixed blade...

CR2030CW.jpg

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I am relieved that most on this thread agree that you should use the weapon that you train with the most/feel the most comfortable with and/or is the most reliable regardless of its potential "evil looks". To illustrate my point about how all this concern over the aesthetics of your firearm for HD is silly, let me give you a rather extreme example that will make my point more clear. Lets say the only firearm you owned was the MP40 you were willed by dad (or grampa) who "amnestied" it back in '68. The only other thing in the house even resembling a weapon is a steak knife. You mean to tell me you're going to go to the steak knife to defend the lives of you and your family in an armed home invasion situation because of what someone might think of you? That is silly. And yes I think of something like a .38 vs a Saiga 12 is like a steak knife vs an MP40.

post-18302-1246137613_thumb.jpg

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Lets say the only firearm you owned was the MP40 you were willed by dad (or grampa) who "amnestied" it back in '68. The only other thing in the house even resembling a weapon is a steak knife. You mean to tell me you're going to go to the steak knife to defend the lives of you and your family in an armed home invasion situation because of what someone might think of you? That is silly.

 

If this is in reply to my stance..............you didn't read my last post too thoroughly, or my point was not clear enough.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WJ. Props for starting this thread. I think there's lots of good info here, regardless of if everyone agrees or not. Also glad to see it has gone 3 pages without it turning into a shit-storming bitch-fest being that there's more than a few different points of view (which seems to have become a trend here).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wanted to start another thread on a relative subject, but figured it would go nicely with this one...............

 

 

 

 

 

How do you keep your guns that you will use in an HD scenario?

 

Right now, this is what I'm working with:

 

My converted 7.62x39 with a loaded 30 round mag inserted and round chambered, on safe. Propped up behind my headboard, it's completely out of sight. One more loaded 30 round mag in the nightstand. My safe is in my closet, 2' from my bed, also. Although I hope any potential HD scenario I ever encounter (hopefully NONE ever), won't require me to go to the safe for another gun or more ammo :unsure: .

 

Why the 7.62x39? Because it's the gun I have the most rounds through and the most confidence in. Simple as that. My setup may change as necessary. Shit happens. I do need a good light though. I'm rocking an old Maglite on my nighstand as of right now ^_^ .

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Lets say the only firearm you owned was the MP40 you were willed by dad (or grampa) who "amnestied" it back in '68. The only other thing in the house even resembling a weapon is a steak knife. You mean to tell me you're going to go to the steak knife to defend the lives of you and your family in an armed home invasion situation because of what someone might think of you? That is silly.

 

If this is in reply to my stance..............you didn't read my last post too thoroughly, or my point was not clear enough.

 

 

This is a good follow on sub-topic because there must be several points of view on this, too. My situation is complicated by having teenagers in the house. I am not worried about my kids, but I am worried about some visiting kid snooping around and finding my guns.

 

I have an 870 with a light under the bed. It is not loaded. I know this is not optimal, but I feel it is a necessary safety precaution. I have shells hidden very near by and I can load a tube magazine pretty quickly. Our bedrooms are upstairs and we have the dog and an alarm, so I feel that I can load a few shells before hell breaks loose.

 

I have a knife in the night stand and that is it. The gun safe is too far away to get to at night.

 

What I seriously lack is a back up weapon, stashed on the first floor. That is a flaw in my current situation which needs to be addressed, but may have to wait until it is just me and my wife at home.

 

WJ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WJ. Props for starting this thread. I think there's lots of good info here, regardless of if everyone agrees or not. Also glad to see it has gone 3 pages without it turning into a shit-storming bitch-fest being that there's more than a few different points of view (which seems to have become a trend here).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wanted to start another thread on a relative subject, but figured it would go nicely with this one...............

 

 

 

 

 

How do you keep your guns that you will use in an HD scenario?

 

Right now, this is what I'm working with:

 

My converted 7.62x39 with a loaded 30 round mag inserted and round chambered, on safe. Propped up behind my headboard, it's completely out of sight. One more loaded 30 round mag in the nightstand. My safe is in my closet, 2' from my bed, also. Although I hope any potential HD scenario I ever encounter (hopefully NONE ever), won't require me to go to the safe for another gun or more ammo :unsure: .

 

Why the 7.62x39? Because it's the gun I have the most rounds through and the most confidence in. Simple as that. My setup may change as necessary. Shit happens. I do need a good light though. I'm rocking an old Maglite on my nighstand as of right now ^_^ .

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Lets say the only firearm you owned was the MP40 you were willed by dad (or grampa) who "amnestied" it back in '68. The only other thing in the house even resembling a weapon is a steak knife. You mean to tell me you're going to go to the steak knife to defend the lives of you and your family in an armed home invasion situation because of what someone might think of you? That is silly.

 

If this is in reply to my stance..............you didn't read my last post too thoroughly, or my point was not clear enough.

 

 

 

No, I was not replying to you. Actually, I completely agree with you. I was responding to those (IMHO) overly worried over what someone else might think after the fact and perhaps choose a weapon they are less proficient with or less suited for HD, that's all.

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WJ,

 

I can completely understand where you are coming from in reference to the children in the house and not having a handgun. Although I carry a handgun everyday, both on duty and off, I will always consider it a weapon of defense. I am very confident and proficient with a handgun, but will always view it as just a means to fight my way to a bigger weapon (shotgun, long gun, etc).

 

To answer your next question about a short range situation, the first key is security. If you give someone enough time and they want something bad enough, they will always find a way in or a way to steal it. Make sure your house has a good alarm system, which is set even if you are at home. Someone kicks the door down, sets the alarm off and a call is sent in for a police response from the alarm company. You can always cancel the call if it is false. But the key is to have them on the way. Second is making sure that it is not easy to get into the residence. Heavy duty strike plates are available from any home improvement center and are very easy to install. If properly installed, they more than triple the amount of force required to breach the door by kicking, ect., which can buy you a little more time.

 

Since you stated that you have some prior martial arts experience, that is a good start as well if everything else fails. You can also purchase several small cans of pepper spray and place them in various rooms around the residence so that you always have SOMETHING close in the event an intruder does make entry. Pepper spray will not stop people in their tracks, but it can and will help limit their actions. You can fight through pepper spray, which is why most officers are required to go through being spray with it during training. They are not sprayed with it to be mean (ok, maybe sometimes LOL) but to show them that they can fight through it when contaminated with overspray. Plus, if any of your children ever get ahold of it and spray themselves, it is normally non lethal, makes a great Kodak moment and they will never do it again. The taser is a great tool, but they do not always work and you can miss with them. Remember, you are only looking for a means and time to fight your way to a bigger weapons platform. Juggernaut had a good point with several small knives around the home as well and you can keep them in the same place as the spray. All of the above will not cost much to purchase or have installed and are just added safety measures to a residence and your family. They are the same measures that I have taken in my own home and are just my opinion. I'm sure others will find fault with them.

 

It does however make me sick to my stomach that anyone on this forum would ever have to have this type of conversation and fear for our safety in our own homes. I guess that it is just the society that we live in these days, but I really miss the old days of leaving the doors unlocked and windows open for the fresh air at night. I wish you the best and always remember one thing "Refuse to be a victim!"

Edited by GeorgiaPD

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I am relieved that most on this thread agree that you should use the weapon that you train with the most/feel the most comfortable with and/or is the most reliable regardless of its potential "evil looks". To illustrate my point about how all this concern over the aesthetics of your firearm for HD is silly, let me give you a rather extreme example that will make my point more clear. Lets say the only firearm you owned was the MP40 you were willed by dad (or grampa) who "amnestied" it back in '68. The only other thing in the house even resembling a weapon is a steak knife. You mean to tell me you're going to go to the steak knife to defend the lives of you and your family in an armed home invasion situation because of what someone might think of you? That is silly. And yes I think of something like a .38 vs a Saiga 12 is like a steak knife vs an MP40.

 

Well of course that would be silly.

 

That ain't what I was saying at all though. Just because I would choose to use one 12 ga pump shotgun vs. a different, "more evil looking" 12 ga semi auto shotgun, does not mean for one second that I wouldn't be completely confident in that 12 ga pump to get the job done. I also mentioned having my Glock 17 right there for backup if necessary. It's got 17 rds of wad cutters in there so I doubt very seriously if I would be insufficiently armed. I sure as hell wouldn't be looking around for a steak knife.

My biggest issue would probably be trying to get a clean shot with my 100 + pound German Shepherd getting between me and my targets. Then there's Racegal20 who's got my my back too....

 

I think you are missing the OP's point. His question wasn't whether or not to use the only gun you have in the house if it came down to it. It was which gun to use if you have several, like most of us do here. As far as which one do you train with....well if you have a plan to use another shotgun besides your favorite evil one, then I think it's a good idea to do a bit of HD training with that one.

 

Another point that was made which is very important...you don't know where you may happen to be in your home when it gets invaded. These modern tards don't always come in after dark. You might be in the bathroom, the laundry room, the workshop, in the kitchen cooking dinner or making a sandwich....not necessarily sitting in bed watching a zombie flick. My answer to this is keeping weapons within reach, in all of these places. And of course the dog is always there no matter where I am. That big oaf even follows me to the bathroom and waits on the other side of the door...lol. :rolleyes:

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If I didn't know Max, and he didn't know me, I would be intimidated by him. He is a big German Shepard. But you forgot to mention Sandy's white guard cat. I think you have all the bases covered.

 

I need to fill in a few gaps in my "defenses." I do have Zippy the guard Basset Hound and a fat, geriatric cat, but that is about it. I love my wife, but I don't think she would be much help in a challenging situation. Come to think of it, all the Basset would do is pee and run. I'm probably on my own.

 

One thing I do think I have going for me is that given the lay out of my neighborhood, I think my house is an unlikely target for a random invasion. If I were a home invader, there are much easier targets with more blind spots and less traffic around them.

 

WJ

Edited by WarriorJudge

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Take a few minutes and LOOK at your home. What are your lines of fire? Are there clear lines of fire? What are the walls backing them made of? If windows back them or your walls are not masonry (not veiner, solid masonry) what is in the line of fire beyond them? Choose a weapon that will suit the environment it is to be used in. Then make sure it is safely stored but readily available to YOU!

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Not one.... not even ONE from NY state? We're D rich, with lots of socialist programs, why arn't we on there once?

 

I thought DC was higher up too...

 

Nope. It's not that NYC is safe, it's that they are literally flooded with cops. NYPD has 25,000 troops, in comparison LAPD has 8,000. The crime rate just isn't through the roof because the city is one big prison essentially.

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Not one.... not even ONE from NY state? We're D rich, with lots of socialist programs, why arn't we on there once?

 

I thought DC was higher up too...

 

Nope. It's not that NYC is safe, it's that they are literally flooded with cops. NYPD has 25,000 troops, in comparison LAPD has 8,000. The crime rate just isn't through the roof because the city is one big prison essentially.

 

You shoulda seen it down there on last New Years. Holy shit. I've never seen so many cops before. Literally every block had a small army of cops on it.

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