bigdaddy67 0 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 The Saiga 12 seems great for home defense, plenty of firepower and intimidating to boot. But has anyone contemplated how a defense attorney or jury would react to a converted Saiga in court? The fact that it was converted to a more "military" look might not fare well for the user. Don't get me wrong, I love my Saiga. I am just wondering if I had to use it to protect my family and home...what would happen afterward? should I reach for the Mossberg pump instead? What do you guys think? --Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 A gun is a gun, if you live in a state which prosecutes citizens who defend themselves, it is time to think about moving. If there is a situation to protect your life or your family, don't worry about the consequences of what you grab. Grab what is closest and ready to go. I'd love to see the look on some sack of shit's face when you come around the corner with a locked & loaded S-12! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 I'm grabbing my Saiga as I would bet my LIFE on it.... I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 A good thread on the topic... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=41600&hl= Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vintagedude88 16 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Do us all a favor and use a pump gun if you get prosecuted. We don't need any negative publicity that may shut us all down. (ban) I have both an S12 and a Mossberg pump. Although I love my converted S12, Chaos and all, I use the Mossy for HD simply to avoid any negative publicity that may affect fellow S12 bretheren. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Do us all a favor and use a pump gun if you get prosecuted. We don't need any negative publicity that may shut us all down. (ban) I have both an S12 and a Mossberg pump. Although I love my converted S12, Chaos and all, I use the Mossy for HD simply to avoid any negative publicity that may affect fellow S12 bretheren. Right after I hand my balls to the liberals.... We are talking about HD (Home Invasion..)... not Homicide... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billyjoebob 10 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 I would use my Glock 26. I don't think I'd be comfortable with my Saiga 12 in a close quarter battle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StarPD 6 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 I don't live in a State that prosecutes innocent homeowners for defending themselves and/or their families. My State has a "Castle Doctrine", and it is part of our judicial system. It matters not what I use as a tool to defend my family, only that I was defending myself or another. Anyone who lives in a State where it matters what they use as a tool for defense needs to either leave that place or become active and get a "Castle Doctrine" bill passed and made law there. My S-12 has replaced my rifle as my HD tool. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigdaddy67 0 Posted July 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 I live in Texas so I don't worry about not having a Castle doctrine. My point was really with all the negative press that "evil" firearms get I am concerned that it will become an issue with a chickens**t lawyer. --Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Elkhound 91 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Oh, come on now Dave, it is not the lawyer, but the greedy client that wants the civil suit filed. The lawyer is just there to help, and make a buck along the way. I don't think you have much to be concerned with when it comes to AUSAs, District Attorney's and other local prosecutors in Texas. I lived there for 14 years and sort of worked in law enforcement while living there and just about every prosecutor I knew had a gun or two. WJ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigdaddy67 0 Posted July 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) Well that makes me fell better, thanks. I guess I got caught up in evil gun hysteria. I sure dig mine and don't want to get pronged because of my choice in firearms.. --Dave Edited July 21, 2009 by bigdaddy67 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
S-12inWV 1 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 I'll be reaching for my S-12 and not give a shit; and will try to literally remove the head from any perp entering my castle without my approval..... Where I live, the look of the weapon wouldn't sway a jury much around here. They'd probably smile inside for removing trash live that from the area. My first round (chambered) is a 3in 15 pellet 00 and in my Russian 8rd mag (what I trust my life to) are two 3in Steel BB shot (freakin' nasty damage to a few small critters I had to put down up close) followed my four more 3in 00 and finally two 1oz slugs.....just in case I need to penetrate a vehicle... I like variety... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 I'll be reaching for my S-12 and not give a shit; and will try to literally remove the head from any perp entering my castle without my approval..... Where I live, the look of the weapon wouldn't sway a jury much around here. They'd probably smile inside for removing trash live that from the area. My first round (chambered) is a 3in 15 pellet 00 and in my Russian 8rd mag (what I trust my life to) are two 3in Steel BB shot (freakin' nasty damage to a few small critters I had to put down up close) followed my four more 3in 00 and finally two 1oz slugs.....just in case I need to penetrate a vehicle... I like variety... Sounds like you've put WAY too much thought into this... Worrying about an intruder may not be your neighbor's only concern. As far as I'm concerned, if you're in my house uninvited you're as good as dead. And I don't care how I do it. Mossberg 500 8rnd., S-12 20rnd., Glock 26/27 15rnd or L1A1 30rnd. I'm shooting until it's empty. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 If someone breaks in...WHILE YOU ARE HOME.... Either they screwed up bad.... or they are there to do you harm.... MOST criminals don't want trouble.. they just want your stuff.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
superA 289 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Do us all a favor and use a pump gun if you get prosecuted. We don't need any negative publicity that may shut us all down. (ban) I have both an S12 and a Mossberg pump. Although I love my converted S12, Chaos and all, I use the Mossy for HD simply to avoid any negative publicity that may affect fellow S12 bretheren. Right after I hand my balls to the liberals.... We are talking about HD (Home Invasion..)... not Homicide... :lolol: :killer: :super: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
superA 289 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 + 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to taking out anybody that ends up in your house. Put them down and do it as fast as you can, I don't want them getting a shot off and hurting one of my kids or myself. I cannot imagine the way I would feel if I tried to just wound them or told them to freeze and they killed me and got their way with my family and or just got a shot off that went through some walls. I really don't give a fuck which state I live in or how some cocksucker may interpret what I have done. Somw what ifs are far worse than others. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigdaddy67 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) It's interesting that the responses in this thread are pretty much opposite to those in the thread that Juggernaut refers to in post #4. Only a few months ago. this one: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=41600&hl= --Dave Edited July 22, 2009 by bigdaddy67 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vintagedude88 16 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Do us all a favor and use a pump gun if you get prosecuted. We don't need any negative publicity that may shut us all down. (ban) I have both an S12 and a Mossberg pump. Although I love my converted S12, Chaos and all, I use the Mossy for HD simply to avoid any negative publicity that may affect fellow S12 bretheren. Right after I hand my balls to the liberals.... We are talking about HD (Home Invasion..)... not Homicide... If you lived in a state who's policy is to first cuff you then ask questions, you'll think otherwise. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shep 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Not worried one bit about using the S-12 for HD. As long as it's a good shoot the local law around here would just give me an 'attaboy and that would be the end of it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackback 135 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Do us all a favor and use a pump gun if you get prosecuted. We don't need any negative publicity that may shut us all down. (ban) I have both an S12 and a Mossberg pump. Although I love my converted S12, Chaos and all, I use the Mossy for HD simply to avoid any negative publicity that may affect fellow S12 bretheren. Hypothetically, if your Mossy was a 590A1 would you not use it either? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Do us all a favor and use a pump gun if you get prosecuted. We don't need any negative publicity that may shut us all down. (ban) I have both an S12 and a Mossberg pump. Although I love my converted S12, Chaos and all, I use the Mossy for HD simply to avoid any negative publicity that may affect fellow S12 bretheren. The first thing I'm going to worry about is doing people favors and avoiding negative publicity. If some fucking junking mother fucker is kicking down your door, hoping to rape your daughter and murder you, I highly doubt you're going to run for the closet and think, "Hmm, well I don't want to cause a big media scare for the other Saiga owners, so I better pick up my single action 22 revolver." You're going to grab whatever is ready to go or what you can get ready to go as fast as possible. Your hesitation could change your name from FrustratedInCali to DeadInCali, or worse. Sorry dude, the first thing I grab is the first thing I'm using, be it a hand gun, the mosin nagant or the S12! Well, I'm not grabbing the S12, but that's only because I just sent my bolt & carrier off to Cobra for modification. So, now it is either going to be the AK or the Baby Desert Eagle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reverendfranz 160 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Personally, i think the more often "evil" guns are used for good, the better, and the more evil the look, or better the deed, the more media attention it should get. We can't let those "Manhunters" get all the coverage. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=42471 Of interest, the classic example on why people are scared about being railroaded based on what weapon they choose to defend themselves with, Harold Fish, a retired schoolteacher who shot a violent felon while hiking, with his 10mm handgun, and was subsequently convicted of second degree murder, partially based on how the prosecutor referred to the "overkill" of his choice of sidearm, and other legal shenanigans, had his sentence overturned earlier this year, as the appellate court stated that the jury was incorrectly instructed on what grounds would qualify as self defense. This week the state announced that they have no intention of retrying Mr Fish, after considering state law, and the appellate decision, and as of today, he is a free man. It seems pretty clear to me, that if the law was followed, he never would have lost 3 years of his life. As this was in AZ, i am confident here, at least, that in the future, the state will only consider the actions, and not the tools used, in cases of self defense. As of now, i dont know of any precidence to make anyone fear that their choice of self defense tool will be used against them in a court of law. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TabulaRasa 1 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 My biggest concern with the Saiga-12 for home defense is that there is no way to mount a bayonet. With the limited availability and resulting price of ammunition these days, bayonets are more important than ever! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
presto_z 125 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 im glad i live in Florida and don't have to worry about what my gun looks like if someone breaks into my house.. the fact that this thread had to be made sickens me. This is the USA if someone breaks into your house you should be able to use whatever you want to defend yourself, family, and possessions. You should be encouraged to own a rifle/handgun/shotgun that could properly defend your family from an intruder(s) and not to settle for something that looks "less scary". My Glock 30 is my go to gun if i awake to someone in my room since it sleeps with me.. My S-12 is the gun i grab if i hear something throughout the rest of the house or outside. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cscharlie 107 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) I've watched these types of cases for about 15 years now. It's been a real eye opener! I didn't realize what a messed up libtarded state I lived in! Some of what the OP says is a real concern. It depends on local and state laws/government quite a bit in some places. Civil suits is were it seems to make the biggest difference. Not just choice of firearm like the AK, but also things like too small of a cal size, did it have an evil laser, or tactical light attached to it? Was it loaded up with your homemade evil ammo that does unesessary damage, or causes unessasary pain/suffering? If any of these things are used in the state I live in, and the perp lives to sue, or their family does, they have about a 90% chance of winning. Their ambulance chaser will say "He was a Cowboy just itching to shoot someone." It's something that is worth checking into as it applies to you individually. I keep hoping that some day I'll get the green light to move to a state with better laws. In the mean time, I think it's tough to put a price tag on my family's live's. Edited July 22, 2009 by cscharlie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerasaurus 9 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Personally I would never use my Saiga for HD. First, it is worth a whole lot more than a typical pump and, thus, I want to protect it against theft. Second, I do worry very much about gun-hating prosecutors/juries. Third, I worry much, much more about the deceased intruder's family in the civil case. I don't want to be painted as a blood-thirsty predator by some money-chasing asshole lawyer and crackhead's grieving widow. I, too, have seen WAY too many scenarios play out where honest citizens defending hearth and home were dragged over the freakin' coals by the system. And while I would NEVER let that deter me from protecting me and mine, I have made very conscientious decisions about how I go about it. Besides, if I can't get the job done with a pump, the odds that the Saiga would've made a difference are pretty slim. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
S-12inWV 1 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 I'll be reaching for my S-12 and not give a shit; and will try to literally remove the head from any perp entering my castle without my approval..... Where I live, the look of the weapon wouldn't sway a jury much around here. They'd probably smile inside for removing trash live that from the area. My first round (chambered) is a 3in 15 pellet 00 and in my Russian 8rd mag (what I trust my life to) are two 3in Steel BB shot (freakin' nasty damage to a few small critters I had to put down up close) followed my four more 3in 00 and finally two 1oz slugs.....just in case I need to penetrate a vehicle... I like variety... Sounds like you've put WAY too much thought into this... Worrying about an intruder may not be your neighbor's only concern. As far as I'm concerned, if you're in my house uninvited you're as good as dead. And I don't care how I do it. Mossberg 500 8rnd., S-12 20rnd., Glock 26/27 15rnd or L1A1 30rnd. I'm shooting until it's empty. I can't even see my closest neighbor...... BUT they all know me VERY WELL and aren't concerned with how I stack shotgun mags. Meth/Pill/Crack heads are my and their biggest concern since we're in an isolated area.....NOT a heavily armed former Marine. I've even invited some of my neighbors out here on my old strip mine on the mountian for target practice and some long range shooting (my 700VS w/Leupold glass can REALLY impress someone when I hit a snuff can at 600yrds) and to get them interested in military style weapons too.... Some never even held an AR or AK until I let them fire one.....and now a few have one or two themselves. And Yea, I did put some thought into how I stack my HD mag..... What if the fool has on some low grade body armor....those steel BBs will usually find a seam or spead to hit something like the neck area. I tested the 00 buck and BB on an older flack-jacket I aquired somehow.... And some of those damn Steel BB's at 10-15 yards DID penetrate, mostly along the seams and totally removed the front of the high collar where it attached/stiched to the the lower torso part. The 00 all got stopped, but would still probably break ribs and sternum. Why not use different rounds and have a few slugs for "just in case"? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 If you lived in a state who's policy is to first cuff you then ask questions, you'll think otherwise. I choose liberty over death EVERY time..... I'd keep my balls and move!!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fxhart 14 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 If you lived in a state who's policy is to first cuff you then ask questions, you'll think otherwise. I choose liberty over death EVERY time..... I'd keep my balls and move!!!!! I moved from Connecticut to Arizona. Although I dearly miss my friends I do NOT miss the state or it's shitty politics. Life down here is the same although the people are friendlier and I'm not limited to what I can own regarding firearms. I keep telling my friends that I moved to 'Free America'. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 When I open my closet for home defense purposes, I initially think of all the geopolitical turbulence in the world, then decide it would probably be best not to select my AK-47. After the thugs are done raping my wife, I think of all of all of the anti-second amendment people in the country and wonder if they'd be angry if I selected my Saiga-12. I know the thugs have just murdered my children, but I have to remind myself that I live in a pussy-liberal state and the prosecution is going to go really hard on me if I use my semi-auto pistol with the larger capacity magazine. I hear them coming up the stairs, guess it is my turn, where's that old single shot 22, that should be appropriate for this politically charged day and age... oh is that my brains splattered on the wall, I hope they feed my dog, before they leave... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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