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I absolutely believe it Cobra and we have been watching it in slow motion for the last 50 years.

 

Condense the impact of Atheism over the last 50 years into a single day and increase the number of people who will make totally subjective moral decisions based upon their own feelings and desires without regard for a higher authority and civilization will pop like a balloon in a handful of hours..

 

You are still missing my point. Non belief in gods or deities has nothing to do with morals or actions. To be sure...if everyone went all zombie on each other and suddenly didn't have any respect for their fellow man, then hell yeah the world would be in chaos.

 

To me though, it has absolutely nothing to do with religion....or lack of it.

 

After a hurricane once...and I suddenly found myself homeless...a good friend of mine told me something I'll always remember.

He said, " It only takes about three days for modern man to resort back to primitive ways"....actually his exact words were "It only takes three days for people to go back to being caveman again."

It's true if you have ever lived through a serious natural disaster in your area. People freak the hell out.

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God help us if everyone rejected God's Injunctions tomorrow because civilization would cease to exist overnight.

 

 

Besides the 10 Commandments we have prophecy which we can watch unfold in history books and even on CNN

 

 

I don't follow your logic. So judeo/christian morality has created a system of unrivaled prosperity and civility. Why does removing religion from the equation mean that we would slip back into barbarity? I mean thousands of years ago a basic social contract was needed to maintain order and build a civil society. Now we have a system of laws and civil ethics that can take the place of silly superstitions.... but maybe Im missing something.

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Not addressing anyone in particular, but perhaps it might be helpful to start thinking of things in terms of different systems of ethics instead of different religions. At least for those interested in the value of different perspectives.

 

I'm assuming this thread is now a "my belief system is better than yours" fight, and is no longer concerned with the original question.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_egoism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_command

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_intuitionism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaethics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_theory

 

Ethics theory, including the underlying principles of religion, are very complex. Try wrapping your head around all that and see if you don't just give up and become a nihilist. ;)

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It's not about human being unable to make moral decisions without religion it's about their reasons for doing so.If it's merely a personal choice either by convenience or a rational decision based in self interest then the impetus to adhere to that moral/ethical position is only as strong as the enticements that caused a person to adopt it initially and when pressures or circumstances change so does their level of commitment to that moral/ethical code.

 

Only a person who believes in life after death and some sort of cosmic accountability will adhere to the fundamentals that make our advanced civilization function even when presented with pressures that destroyed all previous civilizations is the underlying influence of Judeo-Christian precepts which even the most adroit atheist must contend with in their subconscious because they were raised in this civilization and must choose to rebel or step out of line with the pervasive influence of this paradigm in their subconscious.

 

Simple enough,take the Judeo-Christian influence out of the society and we can decide that buggering young boys like the Hellenes or beheading people over an insult are OK and when the correct pressure is applied we will fade into history just like those cultures did before us.

 

The underlying premise that there is some accounting for our actions beyond our corporeal existence coupled with the specific Biblical Moral code that allowed this civilization to come into existence is also it's backbone and what allows it to bounce back and draw faltering states and subcultures back into the whole.

 

If we had Roman ethics we would have salted the earth and enslaved the Germans after WW1 or WW2 like they did the Carthaginians but instead we defeated them and then invited them back into our civilization as repentant sinners forgiven their past transgressions and not held to account for the deeds of their corrupt leaders.

 

That is the hallmark of Judeo-Christian Civilization and why we are the civilization that split the atom,landed on the moon and mapped the human genome because we agreed on certain principals and shared a belief in a similar concept of a higher power with a similar set of imperatives.

 

Without this we become like the hundreds of dead civilizations before us and will kill and eat our neighbors rather than starve when something like the dust bowl comes along again.

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let me sum it up for you guys -

 

 

There is only one true God, whatever his name.

 

That God loves you.

 

That God wants you to be good, and has set you free to choose as you will.

 

 

 

 

who f'n cares what else comes after that part. Ill let the scholars and prophets speculate on the rest.....I personally dont see anything more to it than the above. Its pretty simple, if you ask me.

 

 

 

sorry, Will.

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It's not about human being unable to make moral decisions without religion it's about their reasons for doing so.If it's merely a personal choice either by convenience or a rational decision based in self interest then the impetus to adhere to that moral/ethical position is only as strong as the enticements that caused a person to adopt it initially and when pressures or circumstances change so does their level of commitment to that moral/ethical code.

 

Only a person who believes in life after death and some sort of cosmic accountability will adhere to the fundamentals that make our advanced civilization function even when presented with pressures that destroyed all previous civilizations is the underlying influence of Judeo-Christian precepts which even the most adroit atheist must contend with in their subconscious because they were raised in this civilization and must choose to rebel or step out of line with the pervasive influence of this paradigm in their subconscious.

 

This type of logic is exactly what people were operating on when they created religion in the first place.

 

I can pass any law I want, as a man, but that doesn't mean people are going to follow it, especially if they don't agree with it. Your statement exemplifies the fact that if people feel like they're only breaking man's law, then it's not a big deal. But if we call it God's law, concoct a bunch of stories pertaining to the creation of it, and speculate on the penalties in the afterlife when one breaks these laws (and neglects to beg for forgiveness), then we have created the most effective system of social control possible.

 

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here, you're free to believe whatever you want, and for the most part, I encourage it. But I have to agree with Cobra here: just because you don't believe in divine creation of the ideals and particular morals, doesn't mean that you can't believe in the ideals and morals themselves.

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I've met and known some very moral people who were atheists, agnostics, and even pagans.

So no, I do not believe a person has to believe in God to be good and moral.

 

But, almost every one of them was brought up in a religious family and chose to follow a different path as an adult.

 

Did that early part of their lives influence their later actions?

 

This country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and those HAVE had an influence.

It has only been since the rise of liberalism that we have seen an all out attack on religion.

 

As was stated earlier, you don't have to be Christian or Jewish to follow, or at least respect the teachings of the Commandments.

 

Remember that the Grand Architect loves all his people regardless of their belief or disbelief.

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God help us if everyone rejected God's Injunctions tomorrow because civilization would cease to exist overnight.

 

 

Besides the 10 Commandments we have prophecy which we can watch unfold in history books and even on CNN

 

 

I don't follow your logic. So judeo/christian morality has created a system of unrivaled prosperity and civility. Why does removing religion from the equation mean that we would slip back into barbarity? I mean thousands of years ago a basic social contract was needed to maintain order and build a civil society. Now we have a system of laws and civil ethics that can take the place of silly superstitions.... but maybe Im missing something.

 

I will choose the 613 Biblical Laws over the voluminous and capricious code of "Civil Laws" that brought us such things as gun control,segregation,criminalization of plants and alcohol and fines for letting your grass grow any day of the week.

 

The malfeasance of our lawmakers and courts to provide justice and their obvious indenture to those who possess monetary influence were predicted in the Bible as well and as our society strives to become a humanist wad of man's contrived dictates,limitations and outrages in the name of public order forgetting our obligation to each other as spiritual beings the less progress,happiness and freedom you will see as this civilization lies on it's deathbead as it detaches from it's roots and becomes so much green manure.

 

The laws of men are hardly moral except those last few instances where they coincide with the last vestiges of Levitical Law from ignoring injunctions against Usury to the oppression of the poor by a rouge corporate bribed government this civilization is killing itself with humanism.

 

To be a cop in ancient Judea you had to be elected by your neighbors as a moral person and had to be willing to own nothing but the clothes on your back for a period of 7 years and the penalty for corruption was DEATH and the laws you were expected to enforce were very clear, very basic and it took 2 eye witnesses to convict you.

 

Don't harm of defile other people

Don't harm or defile yourself

Don't keep two sets of books

Don't eat nasty things

Don't worship other Gods

Leave the livestock unmolested

 

real simple stuff and most of it made sense too and some of it makes even more sense when science advanced tot he point that it could perceive the benefits of little things like washing your hands and washing medical instruments but we have to focus on how tall people's grass has grown and whether or not a young man old enough to die in a war but not quite 21 is allowed to have a fucking beer.

 

fuck your man made laws and civil ethics,I wipe my ass with them because they are exactly the kind of man made crap that there is no moral imperative or impetus to abide by and I am pretty sure my "Imaginary Friend in the Sky" agrees with me whole heartedly ;)

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God is good.

 

There is only One True God (if any)

 

DO GOOD

 

I like to keep it simple. And yeh, I know I offend a number of you deeply, but thats really what I believe.

 

 

And your ancestors took money from the King, when God told you to "wipe them out". no wonder we have this religeous war. :) wheres that "i didnt do it" inet sign......shit.....I dont wanna hear it man. Mankind chose its diversity a long time ago.

 

We all seem to believe the same friggin thing.....

 

Now, sell me a damn good fried bagel! And I want it for less than you charge for it, even if i have to pay more!!!

 

This is America. United We Stand.

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Quick question for all you people who somehow equate not believing in gods, devils, demons, ghosts, etc. to being immoral or evil in some way.

 

When was the last time you heard of atheists burning people at the stake, or torturing them with inquisitions, or beheading them, or trying to wipe out an entire race, etc, etc.??

 

And as far as the ten commandments go, yea, this all powerful, all knowing, all seeing, invisible god wrote them down on a couple of flat rocks and gave them to ONE guy to spread his word to the entire planet.

 

 

Ever heard of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot? Atheists and some of the worse mass murderers this poor planet has ever seen. I'm tempted to throw Hitler in that pile too even though he was supposed to have been raised as catholic. Yet a bit of research should reveal to anyone that at best he was a pagan but all he really believed in was himself and his own power.

 

So you might want to put that self rightous high horse your riding back in the stable buddy because atheists can be just as evil as anyone else.

 

 

Stalin, Mao, & Pol Pot were political leaders of countries and did whatever they could to crush their enemies and stay in power. Just like most of the "god fear'n" leaders did. Down here on the "non-historical figure" level atheists in general don't blow up clinics or burn people at the stake. I could go on with crusades and holy wars but the list is far too extensive down through the last couple thousand years for me to list.

 

Calling me self righteous is a hoot, I don't wear my non-religion like a badge, stickers on my car, jewelry, etc. I don't call people out because they say merry christmas to me, or march in protest. I don't think I'm one bit better or more aware than anyone else because I don't believe. I sure as hell step up and respond though when faced with prejudice and ignorance.

 

Here on this very forum people post religious rhetoric all the time. I have seen posts where people blame atheists for the decline of the entire country! I have Jewish friends, christian, etc. It's never a problem because their educated enough and have enough social skills to discuss it rationally and can understand that only YOU can reach your own conclusions. They don't think your morally bankrupt or are a lost soul and angry at the world because you haven't reached the same conclusions they have.

 

One little jibe here, it has been shown in study after study that the less educated are the most fevered believers. How many scientists that belong to the Academy of Sciences believe in gods & devils? How about the greatest minds of modern times? You already know the answer.

 

In a way you prove my point exactly. No matter what you call yourself, you have absolutely no moral high ground over anyone else. And therein lies my problem with religion, that somehow after you choose one of the hundreds of religions or sub-sects of religions that you feel you're somehow "enlightened" and have a "duty" to spread the "truth".

 

You've never seen me start a religious attack thread, I just respond. :angel: :angel:

 

 

You asked the question, it isn't my fault if you don't like the answer.

 

Yes, they were political leaders but it was the everyday average ones who carried out their will wasn't it? The "non-historical figure" level type guys and gals, well educated ones as often as not, who were the trigger pullers. They blew up churches and schools, conducted inquisitions and pogroms. They built and staffed "re-education camps" and gulags. They were believers too and part of that belief is that their is no god, no deity, only science and nature. They believed that the rational, scientific mind relieved of the burden of religious thought would improve society. They have also waged war to spread their beliefs. They were atheists, and they did horrible things as bad or worse than any inquisition, witch trial, crusade or jihad.

They proselitize too you know, spreading their beliefs. As often as not it is by supporting "revolutionary movements". Groups like the Shining Path, PLO, Baader Meinhoff, etc, etc, etc. Just some everydayaverage folks who happen to have as a central part of their philosophy a complete rejection of a belief in deity or the supernatural.

 

 

 

Oh, that last jab of yours proves my point. Have fun riding that horse brother, don't fall and hurt yourself.

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Buddhists do not believe in God. They hold themselves to a very high standard of accountability. I'm not sure if God exists or not. I hold myself accountable to a very high standard without the thought of reward or punishment. A world without morals will go to shit. I believe it possible to have morals without belief in a God.

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I prefer the char-broiled nun.

 

 

 

Yeah but they made me gain weight so I've been trying to kick the habit.

 

 

 

 

Char-broiled, crock pot, whatever. If you guys haven't tried beer can baby you are missing out on something special. I like it with cooked with just a bit of Molech sauce.

 

Cooking baby is just wrong. you lose essential vitamins by doing this and do not taste the soul still fresh in it's flesh. Baby should be served sashimi style or lightly charred with a cool pink center(tar-tar).

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I believe we all live our lives the way we think is right. A lot of it depends on our upbringing but as we grow up we choose our own paths. Some of the most 'anti organized religion' types I know were raised Roman Catholic or Southern Babtist. They were force fed all that religion from the very beginning, and made to go to religious or private schools, wear uniforms, and everything was about religion. It's no wonder they decided enough was enough, just as soon as they were able to leave the nest. So they shunned religion ASAP but they still remained good and moral people....and teach their own children good morals. The golden rule is all you need. Make them appreciate the meaning and reason behind good values from the time they are small children, and they will be good people. Ya don't have to put the FEAR OF GOD in them, or make them believe they will burn forever in some lake of fire. All they need is good guidance and to learn by experience what happens when you do someone wrong, or break man's laws. Children who stray from the path as they become teens, will find their way into a jail cell, or other punishment rather quickly. Those who were originally raised with good morals will learn from this bad experience and straighten their wild asses up as they grow to adulthood. Seeing the inside of a cell, and having that door close behind you, with no one there to help you, or not knowing when they will come back and let you out, will put a whole new and different perspective on things, as far as being bad, breaking rules and laws goes.

I believe we all live our heavens and hells in real life.....while we are still alive. You reap what you sew. What comes around goes around,...etc..

Those who choose to take a path of 'evil'...will suffer greatly for it during their lives on earth. Who cares what happens after death. You get one ride on this earth. Screw it up and you suffer and waste it. Do good and be kind to others, and you will most likely have a happy life....barring extreme bad luck or disease.

 

my .02

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