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65 members have voted

  1. 1. Which Saiga should you buy if you could only get one (considering my parameters)?

    • Saiga-12
      35
    • Saiga 7.62x39
      19
    • Saiga .223
      3
    • Saiga .308
      8


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First, I'm glad to be a new member here. Second, I'm sure this question has been asked before but I have some specific priorities and limitations that will hopefully lead to a very customized answer. I will really appreciate you all taking the time to consider your response given these parameters and I would further appreciate the why you answered how you did, if you have the time.

 

"Philosophy of Use"

Most importantly, I should tell you where the Saiga is going to fit. I have two primary goals: home defense and SHTF-preparedness. For the former, I live attached to neighbors and I don't want to blow them away through the walls. For the latter, I want something that I might need to lug around in a post-apocalyptic zombie-ridden neighborhood, maybe do a little civilian sheepdogging, but mostly just protect my family in times of disaster. I don't want it to be unwieldy, hard-to-followup, ineffective for my goals etc.

 

Location

I live in SoCal and this informs the decision in a few ways. First, as many of you undoubtedly know, all guns in Cali are limited to 10-round magazines. This, combined with round effectiveness might be relevant. Second, if you would tend to recommend a shotgun model, you should be aware that in California, the shotgun Saigas, unlike the rifles, are not legal out-of-the-box, but require magazine locks or bullet buttons. This may or may not sway your choice. Finally, I live in an area that is best described as suburban (near the coast), with no big game to speak of (mostly coyotes, raccoons, ducks, pigeons, rabbits and [forbid] pumas) , so keep that in mind when thinking about what a SHTF situation would mean in my context.

 

Other guns

Since the rest of my arsenal might inform the choice, I will likely always have a sidearm to compliment whatever Saiga rifle or shotgun I might strap to my back. But, for the sake of you answer, don't assume I have an arsenal of other options. Whatever the choice, it needs to be good in a variety of possible scenarios, while being fully aware than no one gun can do it all well. I'm basically shooting for your standard handgun/rifle/shotgun trinity. This may very well mean that I will get both a Saiga rifle and shotgun at some point but the question then becomes: which first?

 

Who

It's just my wife and me. I'm a strong guy but she's pretty small. Whatever we have, she might need to carry and use it though that shouldn't be an overriding concern.

 

Price

It might help you to know what I can get the guns for right now and if they are readily available. Saiga-12 $525, Saiga .223/7.62x39 $369, .308 $519

 

Ammo

Since this decision basically seems to come down to a caliber choice, ammo cost, availability, ballistics and practicality-for-purpose will be a major factor. I don't what to break the bank and search for weeks just to get the thrill of a .308 unless I need a .308 for other reasons I've listed, for example. Also, I tend to be more a believer in accuracy/shot-placement/energy-transfer than I am in notions like "stopping power". Also, if you pick .223 or 7.62x39, I'll be even more interested in why you picked one over the other, since they seem more closely related than the other models. I'm pretty motivated to get up and running with a stock of rounds so I don't want to have to go all over the planet to track down a hard to find round and have to pay $1 each. Nor do I want to get left with a giant paper weight in a SHTF situation when no one else has ammo I might need.

 

Conversions

If accessory and conversion options play into your choice, know that I don't plan to do anything to the guns in the foreseeable future. Basically, I'm going to run as close to stock as possible.

 

I'm sure there are some things I didn't think of but feel free to ask questions if you need more info. Thanks in advance!

 

PS

I didn't put barrel length on here but, in general, I think I can get the 16" rifles and 19" shotguns easily.

Edited by Neverfox
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Get yourself a mossberg 590 mariner, it's lighter and throws down lead, and also breaks down, also might be legal without any dingbat doodads,..

Otherwise the 7.62 x 39,...not 308,..it is the one that goes through multiple walls and ammo is pricey.

FWIW

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I would go with the 7.62x39 for a number of reasons. I don't think a rifle is ideal for a home-defense situation, but the 7.62x39 isn't going to be moving as fast as a .308 or .223 and might be marginally less likely to go through lots of walls and harm family or neighbors. Being able to find ammunition in a SHTF scenario should not be a great concern, as you should have more ammunition than you could readily carry already in your possession prior to such an event. If you're looking for ammunition after shit hits the fan, you may be too late.

 

 

I am not highly familiar with california law, so don't take the next bit as legal advice or a recommended course of action. I'm not a lawyer, etc. etc.

 

As I understand it, pre-ban high-capacity magazines are still legal to own in that state. A Saiga 7.62x39 can be readily modified to accept regular AK magazines. If doing so is legal, you can at least triple your capacity and carry a great deal more extra ammunition already loaded into magazines. I did see that you intend to run as close to stock as possible, but if you make any modifications that should be at the top of the list.

 

Ammunition availability as it stands right now should inform your choice; what sort of ammunition do you want? How much do you want on hand? How long will it keep? How much can you afford to spend on ammo? There are a lot of options in 7.62x39.

 

There is some very nice non-corrosive brass-cased Egyptian milsurp FMJ on the market right now that you might look at. The cheapest I have found it is $340 for 1000 rounds, plus shipping. It's pricey, but very good ammunition (I've run about 400 rounds through a rifle with zero failures) and if you seal it in an ammo can with some desiccant it should last a long time.

 

If you're looking for something cheaper, both Wolf and Bernaul (sometimes sold under that brand, or Brown Bear, Silver Bear, Golden Bear) make excellent ammunition which is readily available from a number of online retailers, and can be found for as little as $240 per 1000 rounds, plus shipping.

 

 

Regarding your wife, either the .223 or the 7.62x39 should produce little enough recoil so that a shooter who is inexperienced or slim-framed can handle it. The 12-gauge or .308 might be a bit much.

 

 

 

To summarize, I think your best bet (if legal) would be a Saiga 7.62x39 modified to accept pre-ban high-capacity 30-round magazines. Hope my post is helpful.

Edited by Shandlanos
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If you are in an urban enviroment, I would actually suggest a pistol (Glock would be my first choice for not freezing and forgetting to take off the safety in an encounter) for your first defense gun. You can always buy/upgrade later to shotguns or rifles. The only reason I suggest this, is that they are concealable (don't need to always advertise you are armed), and if you are worried about over penetration, you could use Glasser saftey shot or sub-sonic rounds. If you are in an apartment complex, a rifle would be cumbersome and overkill in that enviroment. A shotgun would be nice , esp. with a pistol grip, but the Mossy 500 series kicks like a mule with a pistol grip. You could always use reduced recoil 00 buck. Whatever you choose, make sure that you AND the Mrs. go to the gun range often enough to be proficient with it, and both of you learn how to take down, clean and reassemble the weapon. If you are truly worried about SHTF, one gun will not do it all. There is a reason there are pistols, shotguns AND rifles.

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Pistols are also a lot harder to fire accurately than long guns. I think everyone's first gun should be a Marlin Model 60 or Ruger 10/22. And everyone's second gun should be a full-sized .22 pistol. After becoming proficient with those, then move onto centerfire. That being said, I think every responsible person who knows how to shoot should own at least three high-quality centerfire guns: a pistol, autoloading rifle, and shotgun.

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I vote for the 7.62x39

 

Although rifles aren't going to be optimal for home defense, the 7.62x39 will be great for an overall SHTF situation. As far as California law is concerned, if you stay away from "evil features" you will still be allowed the functional magazine release (have to stay unconverted, and don't get the skeleton stock I have basically). Being able to swap the 10 round mags quickly can be important.

 

In a SHTF zombie apocalypse situation you aren't going to need to hit at distance, you are going to need stopping power at close range. If you expect to be sniping at >200 yards, you should probably get either the .308 or .223, but I don't think that would be realistic. The 7.62x39 is the round the AK platform was designed around, it will stop whatever is coming at you in 1 shot (compared to possibly requiring more from the .223), and you can carry more ammo weight wise compared to the .308. The 7.62x39 ammo is also easy to find in local gun shops, and is easy to find online for less than $0.40 per round shipped even in small quantities.

 

I would then go with a reliable pump action shotgun to go with the Saiga since in California there are few regulations on them and they can't be considered an assault weapon - plus they are cheap, will make a good backup to the Saiga, and might be preferred for the HD situation. I like my Mossberg 500A, but I admit the Rem 870 feels like a more solid, although heavier, shotgun.

Edited by stix213
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  • 1 year later...

As I understand it, pre-ban high-capacity magazines are still legal to own in that state. A Saiga 7.62x39 can be readily modified to accept regular AK magazines. If doing so is legal, you can at least triple your capacity and carry a great deal more extra ammunition already loaded into magazines. I did see that you intend to run as close to stock as possible, but if you make any modifications that should be at the top of the list.

 

He could find pre-ban large-capacity mags for the .223 as well, if I'm not mistaken. The .223 is probably the best rifle caliber for home defense, especially with Hornady 75 gr TAP. It should break up before exiting the house, and will do some serious damage to bad guys.

Edited by Jim Digriz
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First, do you own any other guns? My first two picks for home-defense/SHTF would be a pump shotgun and a pistol. The former because it is very reliable (no gas system to mess with) and offers some heavy firepower with the option of choosing a wide range of projectiles for different purposes. The pistol is concealable and easy to carry at all times... and *if* you are trained with one, still a good defensive weapon.

 

A rifle is for hunting animals--four legged or otherwise. It's designed for distance and not really a defensive weapon, especially for close quarters. You would probably be better served with a .22 for culling small game as a third choice. Or maybe jump up to .223 or 5.45 which are more effective on larger animals.

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start with a bb gun then ask your daddy, bring him a beer first.

 

OMG man you made me spill my coffee...lol. Dude that's funnt.

 

I vote for the S-12. Get a stock with a good recoil pad on it for the lady, like an Ace with 1" pad. My girl shoots mine with no trouble and she's tiny.

Yeah I know...old thread...still applies.

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If I lived in California, I wouldn't own any mag fed firearms. Those laws are just ridiculous. I'd buy myself a S&W 686 8 rounder with moon clips and just practice loading like Miculek. He can make a revolver sound like it's full Auto. I'd get a Benelli with an Arredondo Speed Ramp and a bucket full of speed sticks. Faster than those bullet buttons or whatever they're called. Freaking incredible the stupidity they pass into law in Commiefornia.

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S12 for home defense. And hopefully your adversary will have a pump shotgun. That way you can be shooting while he is pumping. There is a lot of Hoo Ha about dependability with pumps which is true in a general way. The key is to have your S12 running just as dependable, which isn't that hard to do. Then when I put my 100% dependable S12 against his pump it comes down to who can put more shot on target faster and I win that one every time.

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S12 for home defense. And hopefully your adversary will have a pump shotgun.

S12? Really? REALLY? What happens when you field your S12 and your adversary is a runnaway government?

swat-team-10a.jpg

 

...the answer is you loose.

 

My vote is 7.62x39. Then you have a shot at home defense :eek:

Edited by bigsal
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S12 for home defense. And hopefully your adversary will have a pump shotgun.

S12? Really? REALLY? What happens when you field your S12 and your adversary is a runnaway government?

swat-team-10a.jpg

 

...the answer is you loose.

 

My vote is 7.62x39. Then you have a shot at home defense :eek:

 

Well, we apparently have a vastly different interpretation of what "home defense" means. If the time ever comes when I'm battling a runaway government then I'll be using everything I have, but that wasn't the question.

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S12 for home defense. And hopefully your adversary will have a pump shotgun.

S12? Really? REALLY? What happens when you field your S12 and your adversary is a runnaway government?

swat-team-10a.jpg

 

...the answer is you loose.

 

My vote is 7.62x39. Then you have a shot at home defense :eek:

 

Well, we apparently have a vastly different interpretation of what "home defense" means. If the time ever comes when I'm battling a runaway government then I'll be using everything I have, but that wasn't the question.

 

Who knows what the OP will encounter, he did say he lives in SoCal.... :angel:

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S12? Really? REALLY? What happens when you field your S12 and your adversary is a runnaway government?

 

...the answer is you loose.

 

 

Of course, even if you win, you still lose. They will use the media to make sure that everyone perceives you as a crazed wacko with an "arsenal" of "automatic assault rifles", "tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition", lying in wait for law enforcement in your "compound". You will probably also be portrayed as a pervert - that part might actually be true though :lolol: And then they will kill you.

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Of course, even if you win, you still lose. They will use the media to make sure that everyone perceives you as a crazed wacko with an "arsenal" of "automatic assault rifles", "tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition", lying in wait for law enforcement in your "compound". You will probably also be portrayed as a pervert - that part might actually be true though :lolol: And then they will kill you.

 

"There's no news in the truth. And there's no truth in the news."

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S12? Really? REALLY? What happens when you field your S12 and your adversary is a runnaway government?

 

...the answer is you loose.

 

 

Of course, even if you win, you still lose. They will use the media to make sure that everyone perceives you as a crazed wacko with an "arsenal" of "automatic assault rifles", "tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition", lying in wait for law enforcement in your "compound". You will probably also be portrayed as a pervert - that part might actually be true though :lolol: And then they will kill you.

Interesting point! Still, better safe then sorry.

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S12 for home defense. And hopefully your adversary will have a pump shotgun.

S12? Really? REALLY? What happens when you field your S12 and your adversary is a runnaway government?

swat-team-10a.jpg

 

...the answer is you loose.

 

My vote is 7.62x39. Then you have a shot at home defense :eek:

 

s12 with a drum full of slugs...from that picture I wouldn't be walking out alive anyway.

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S12 for home defense. And hopefully your adversary will have a pump shotgun.

S12? Really? REALLY? What happens when you field your S12 and your adversary is a runnaway government?

swat-team-10a.jpg

 

...the answer is you loose.

 

My vote is 7.62x39. Then you have a shot at home defense :eek:

 

s12 with a drum full of slugs...from that picture I wouldn't be walking out alive anyway.

Perhaps, but the best Slugs won't go through the Level IV+ plates or the shield. Best bet is AP rifle rounds IMHO. :super:

You can see my review of some Israeli AP rounds available for the 7.62x39 as well as SS109 Rounds available from many sources HERE.

Edited by bigsal
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  • 1 month later...

I'm not sure why anyone would waste their time with a Saiga-12 in California. I can think of few weapons that suck more than a 5 round capacity shotgun that needs three hands to reload. If you want a shotgun, you will be far better served with a pump action or even a "traditional" semi-auto like a Remington 1100 or Mossberg 930.

 

Your best bet, of the choices above, is a factory configuration Saiga 7.62x39 with a pile of extra magazines and a nice red dot. Please don't put that stupid magazine lock on your gun, you make it useless for just about anything besides the gun range.

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  • 3 months later...

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