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.308 Saiga or CETME?


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Greetings,

 

I was surfing the net for information on the Saiga .308 and CETME, and found this board.

 

I'm wondering if you fine and knowledgable folks could help me with my purchasing decision? I am in the market for my first .308 (I have an AK-47 and an SKS, but feel it's time to graduate to something larger!), and I've narrowed it down to the Saiga and the CETME.

 

Both are about the same price right now, so that isn't a big differentiator. As for the CETME, I've heard it is generally a good rifle, but that the quality can be spotty (Several people seem to think the CETMEs were "put together by monkeys"), that it gets very dirty, that magazines sometimes don't fit, and that cleaning the thing can be such a chore that it has actually caused some people to sell their CETMEs. Other than that, I've heard that many people have put thousands of rounds through their CETME's, and that they are accurate and generally quite reliable.

 

There is less information about the Saiga, and the only real complaint I've heard is about the magazine capacity, and that magazines are becoming scarce and hard to find. I've heard the Saigas shoot well however, and I'm guessing that since it is essentially an AK design, it is probably more reliable and easier to clean or work on than most rifles.

 

The only thing troubling me about the Saiga is that it isn't being imported anymore. If I need parts or service, I wonder how hard they will be to find? BTW, why did EAA stop importing these anyway? From what I gather, these are one of the best .308 rifle values around, and that you have to spend almost twice as much to get a Remington 7400 or other comparable 308. It seems that EAA would have no problem selling them. So what gives with not importing them anymore?

 

Anyway, any opinions you folks can give me on CETME/Saiga comparisons would be appreciated.

 

Oh, and I guess it would help if you knew what the rifle was going to be used for. This will mostly be a closet rifle. By that, I mean it will be kept securly stored in case of a "SHTF" scenario in this country. I may take it out plinking to familiarize myself with the rifle, but after that it will be stored. (I'll continue to use my AK and SKS for weekend plinking. The 308 will be my "serious business" rifle.)

 

Regards,

Steve

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I love my .308 Saiga. My only complaint is the trigger pull. This could be remedied by converting it to an AK trigger but I have the wood model and plan to leave it in stock configuration. It is plenty accurate. I shot a deer with mine this year using open sights. I havent foun a scope mount that I like yet but will probably be getting a POSP 8x42 before next deer season. As for parts most AK parts will fit. There is someone here on this board who will soon be producing 20 round magazines. I love riding mine around in my truck window just so I can brag on it.

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The .308 Saiga's trigger pull does suck, but after a conversion they can be quite nice, depending on what parts you use. As far as them not being imported anymore, another company has picked up importation rights and look for them to be available again in about a month. I know nothing of the CETME, but the Saiga is easy to operate and clean. A member here, Daewoo, has some kind of a production company, and he will be producing Hi-Cap magazines for the .308. They will be available later this spring.

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My shooting experience is primarily with handguns, but I am happy with the trigger pull on my Saiga .308. I don't think I could blame the trigger pull for any accuracy problems I might have. At the same time I got the .308 I also purchased a Saiga 7.62 by 39. The .308 trigger is better. I think my .308 also has a better trigger than my 9mm Ruger carbine, which, as is typical for Ruger products, has noticeable take-up.

 

Monomonk

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About two months ago I was going through the same thought process: Cetme or Saiga.

 

One of the factors that pursuaded me to go with the Saiga were the many postings on the cetmerifles.com board which stated that a buyer of a Cetme should not expect it to work right out of the box. One has to love tweaking a rifle if one wants a reliable firearm unlike the Saiga that operates from the get go. This is why a used tweaked Cetme will probably sell for more than a NIB one.

 

If you do consider getting a Cetme, go to that board and read carefully the FAQ. Be sure you understand issues such as the bolts that have been ground. Consider Century Arms's reputation as a gun builder. At this time I would never consider a Cetme and might consider a G3 made by Century. If I feel that I need another 308 it will probably be one of the better G3 clones which are not made by Century.

 

I am not sure what parts would go wrong on a Saiga, but a lot of the small internal pieces are similar, if not identical, to parts you will find in a "regular" AK.

 

Before I bought my Saiga I did line up 4 extra magazines, and am waiting for the 30 rounders to be made and sold.

 

Hope you make a wise decision either way. One of the apparent universal truths is that whatever 308 you get do not(!) use surplus ammo from India. Too much bad mojo with that stuff.

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One other comment:

 

Although EAA and Remington won't be importing the Saiga, there is a company in Kentucky that will take over. They claim that they will be bringing in guns at the end of April. If you go back a month on this board and on the Russian AK forums at the www.ak-47.net and www.ar15.com boards you can read all about this new importer. Also, keep in mind, that a few years ago there was another company that was importing the Saigas; I think it was called Kalashnikov USA. The Saigas are great firearms and I doubt that they will be orphans because of a lack of an importer. Just sit tight a few months to see what happens. From what I hear Century is expecting a huge batch of Cetme parts from which they will make more rifles so there is no need to hurry and buy something.

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I own one CETME. It shoots 'okay'. I feel I was lucky.

 

I also have a couple of .308 Saigas. No problems from the start. Not picky as far as ammo. I only run a Boresnake through the barrel and put some 30 wt Mobil One on the moving parts. They aren't babied.

 

If you are going to collect .308 battle rifles, then a CETME fills a niche. If you also expect it or a G3 to be a shooter, then you need to do your homework. You will spend more and maybe, much more than a Saiga price for a good shooter. Most will agree that Saigas are good out of the box.

 

Saiga's are on their 4th(?) importer now. This is nothing new in the import biz. I think you will be able to get parts for your Saiga as easily as for the CETME for a long time. When Daewoo's 20 rounders come on line there will be much rejoicing throughout the land.

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I dont personally own a 308 Saiga nor a Cetme.. yet. But I have read alot about the 308s here and have read a lot about the Cetmes. They both have pluses and minuses. Do a lot of research.

 

This site has a lot of info on Cetmes:

 

 

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=47

 

And of course you can get all the Saiga 308 info you need here.

 

I will say from what Ive read if you want reliabilty go with a Saiga. The AK set up is very simple and very reliable. I have read many horror stories about cetmes. I still want one but you have to be very carful and inspect the gun closely. Dont buy it over the internet go to dunhams. Also with the cetme your getting a milsurp rifle. Old parts on a new reciever. The Saiga on the other hand is new. I have read about some people getting lucky with the cetmes and they work great right out of the box. But more than likely expect to tinker with it a bit before its 100% reliable. The company that assmebles those guns does from the sounds of it just slap them together. In some ways if you are going to go with that style of gun save up the money and buy a G3 or something from another company. I really like the looks of the cetmes and hope to have one of them or their cousins somday.

 

I cant comment on accuracy between the 2 cause i havent shot them. But I have heard the cetmes are pretty accurate.

Edited by stokstad
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My friend had a CETME from Century Arms. He had the usual horror stories about it. But the biggest problem for him was that there was no "Forward Assist" on the CETME. Apparently, the user cannot reliably cycle a round manually with the CETME. The rifle will strip off the first bullet from the magazine alright. But the bolt will not completely close. Because the charging handle is not directly connected to the bolt carrier (the AR-15 also does not have a direct connection between the charging handle and the bolt carrier), and because the rifle does not have a forward assist, the user cannot completely close the bolt at this point. According to him, it's next to impossible at this point.

 

After that first round off the magazine, the rest of the bullets will feed and seat fine. The bolt will lock reliably. But that first round off the magazine was always a problem.

 

On the other hand, the Saiga [and other AK] charging handle is part of the bolt carrier. So if the bolt does not lock, you can just manually tap on the handle to close it.

 

So the lesson, I guess, is never buy a closed bolt weapon that does not have a forward assist.

 

Jimmy

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In a nutshell:

 

....................Saiga .308.................Century CETME

Fit/finish........Very good..................Fair - Good

Function........Excellent....................Luck of the draw

Approx $*.....$350-400...................$300-350

Condition.......New..........................Built off old parts kits

Mags.............US 20's soon..............Cheap and plentiful 20's

P-grip............No, but not hard.........Yes

Trigger..........Poor..........................Poor

*Add ~$100-200 to Saiga to convert to pistol grip depending on skill and parts

 

I sell both Saigas and CETMEs, but I think you can guess which I actually own myself. Check them both out in person and you will see the obvious quality difference. Triggers on both are horrible in my opinion, but it's a battle rifle not a sniper rifle. The trigger is easy to improve on the Saiga, especially if you are converting to p-grip anyway. If you are just in love with the CETME style at least get the G3 clones which have fresh barrels, better sights, and better mags. Also don't forget the mighty FAL for a .308 battle rifle. There are a couple places out there where you can get FAL's around $600, but again you must watch the quality. Remember these CETME's, G3's, and FAL's are made of old parts on new receivers with a few other new parts for US-parts compliance. The Saiga is BRAND NEW, from Russia with love.

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I have both the Cetme and Saiga. I bought a newer Cetme, with the black stock set, and haven't had a single problem with it. But as others have said, it is a roll of the dice. They both are excellent shooters, but I do find the Cetme a little easier to shoot accurately. As far as ease of cleaning, you can't beat a Kalishnikov rifle.

So I guess you NEED one of each.

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If you are looking for a SHTF major caliber rifle (maybe questionable in itself)...

 

The Saiga is pretty well OUT (Sorry guys!) because of the mag issue -limited cap and no real alternatives to resolve this for the present.

 

The CETME is a crap shoot, but Century has a rep of EVENTUALY getting them functional if you keep returning them. However, the iron sights may NEVER get in the ball park (use a red dot in such cases). Mags for the CETME are fairly cheap -HK mags MAY or MAY NOT work...another crap shoot. If you get one working, it is a better BATTLE RIFLE than the Saiga because it is CONFIGURED as one. So that's that.

 

That said, the CETME's are purty offspring of the AK (clone) family...

 

But, the ALUMINUM receivered Century HK clones, ugly as they are, are noted to be the best functioning of the cheapie HK-ish clones. IF you really want a WORKING .308 battle rifle, and one that will accept the super cheap HK mags that abound -looking for one of these might be a good idea.

 

Or!!! Get a FN/FAL clone...this would be my primary recommendation.

 

Lollygagger :unsure: (I use all of the previous weapons, so there is no personal "ownership bias" here.)

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i have read AND heard MANY horror stories about the cheap cetme and the cheap FALs. other things ive seen on both of tehse weapons is they sometimes arent headspaced correctly, sometimes the rewelded reciever joints arent complete OR good, pins holding the FSB on actually show in the bore of the gun on some, the list goes on. I will probably never buy either. if i did go with one of either of those types, it would be a DSA 58 probably. you get what you pay for.

 

in contrast, ive seen a lot of talk about the saiga 308, and apart from a handful of incidents buyers had with them, its got a great track record. its an AK, how does one go wrong with that? its kind of hard to, but as it is an AK, dont expect sub MOA accuracy out of it, or any other military rifle without doing a lot of tweaking to it.

 

the only battle rifle I know of that is not ridiculously priced and gives close to 1" patterns at 100 yards is some of the AR15's out there. the more accurate, the better the parts fit, and the more likely you will have a jam when confronting those hordes of invading tastey animals (that you can only shoot so many of anyhow). in this respect, the older garands can be very accurate, but they are hit or miss in that respect. i hear even the newer ones have issues with accuracy.

 

i dont roll around in the mud and grass when i shoot for days on end, so cleaning a rifle that likes to be fired clean in order to function properly is not an issue to me. any incident Ill have to use a rifle like this during (god forbid) i dont expect to last long.

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I actually traded my CETME and $75 for my Saiga .308 and i am very pleased. The CETME i had was a COMPLETE waste of time, century arms did a crappy job putting those rifles together. plus they were a pain in the ass to take apart clean and put back together. my advice is to go with Saiga and never buy a century arms CETME and good luck with your purchase.

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Follow up...

 

A battle rifle (major caliber -.223 does not count...inadequate range & pentration) may well have to be "built" -at least, finished up, tuned and tested. It's the nature of the beast -and part of the game if you want to play.

 

Untill there is a MILSPEC HICAP RELIABLE MAG -the Saiga is NOT a contender (much as I like mine) period. Without such, all the AK reliable and well made hoopla is for "not" regarding a main battle weapon -if it was not so, we'd consider a spear.

 

Dream otherwise folks, that is the hard truth.

 

Lollygagger :unsure:

Edited by lollygagger
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The mag availability is a concern if you are spec'ing out a true battle rifle for use in worst case scenarios. Thankfully Daewoo came to the plate with his 20 round mag project. Assuming they will be delivered as hoped, nothing should prevent you from having all the .308 Saiga 20rd. mags you want. While they will not be true "mil-spec" I trust they will be far more than adequate for my use and will last decently into the apocalypse, or at least until I succumb to a government-engineered virus, flesh-eating zombies, or sex-crazed aliens and don't care about fighting off the evil-doers anymore. We will find out soon (about the normal use part anyway). Meanwhile, I'll enjoy my 22" pistolgripped .308 Russian AK that never hiccups, looks great, and cost less than a pieced-together military leftover.

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The mag availability is a concern if you are spec'ing out a true battle rifle for use in worst case scenarios. Thankfully Daewoo came to the plate with his 20 round mag project. Assuming they will be delivered as hoped, nothing should prevent you from having all the .308 Saiga 20rd. mags you want.  While they will not be true "mil-spec" I trust they will be far more than adequate for my use and will last decently into the apocalypse, or at least until I succumb to a government-engineered virus, flesh-eating zombies, or sex-crazed aliens and don't care about fighting off the evil-doers anymore. We will find out soon (about the normal use part anyway). Meanwhile, I'll enjoy my 22" pistolgripped .308 Russian AK that never hiccups, looks great, and cost less than a pieced-together military leftover.

 

...And holds the same number of rounds as a WWII Garand, but 8 less powerful cartridges that do not have a easy provision for quick reloading.

 

Lollygagger :angel: (Ignor me, I'm having fun being a pain!)

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I,ve shot both and the saiga was definately more accurate, in my case the cetme was more reliable, the cetme had a brake which made less recoil, the cetme had hi cap mags, but the cetme did not have the ability to adjust windage on the sights, had poorer fit and finish, and had a cheaper feel to it. The saiga I got used has an obviously bent gas piston, and I believe the occaisonal stovepipes will dissappearwhen that is taken care of. Triggerpulls are terrible on bnoth rifles, ergonomics are better on the cetme,although pistolgrip conversion of the saiga will fix thatr with the exception of tha ak safety. Go to the local range and see if you can shoot somebody's and see what you like.

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the cetme I shot had no provision for windage adjustment on front or rear, unless you used a hammer to bend something, after taking it to krebs to have him install an adjustable g-3 rear and krebs loosing the parts, the rifle was trade4d straight across for a stg58. The owner lucked out on that trade!

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Greetings,

 

I was surfing the net for information on the Saiga .308 and CETME, and found this board.

 

I'm wondering if you fine and knowledgable folks could help me with my purchasing decision?  I am in the market for my first .308 (I have an AK-47 and an SKS, but feel it's time to graduate to something larger!), and I've narrowed it down to the Saiga and the CETME.

 

Both are about the same price right now, so that isn't a big differentiator.  As for the CETME, I've heard it is generally a good rifle, but that the quality can be spotty (Several people seem to think the CETMEs were "put together by monkeys"), that it gets very dirty, that magazines sometimes don't fit, and that cleaning the thing can be such a chore that it has actually caused some people to sell their CETMEs.  Other than that, I've heard that many people have put thousands of rounds through their CETME's, and that they are accurate and generally quite  reliable.

 

There is less information about the Saiga, and the only real complaint I've heard is about the magazine capacity, and that magazines are becoming scarce and hard to find.  I've heard the Saigas shoot well however, and I'm guessing that since it is essentially an AK design, it is probably more reliable and easier to clean or work on than most rifles. 

 

The only thing troubling me about the Saiga is that it isn't being imported anymore.  If I need parts or service, I wonder how hard they will be to find?  BTW, why did EAA stop importing these anyway?  From what I gather, these are one of the best .308 rifle values around, and that you have to spend almost twice as much to get a Remington 7400 or other comparable 308.  It seems that EAA would have no problem selling them.  So what gives with not importing them anymore?     

 

Anyway, any opinions you folks can give me on CETME/Saiga comparisons would be appreciated.

 

Oh, and I guess it would help if you knew what the rifle was going to be used for.  This will mostly be a closet rifle.  By that, I mean it will be kept securly stored in case of a "SHTF" scenario in this country.  I may take it out plinking to familiarize myself with the rifle, but after that it will be stored.  (I'll continue to use my AK and SKS for weekend plinking.  The 308 will be my "serious business" rifle.)

 

Regards,

Steve

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  • 1 year later...
  • 5 months later...

I may own both. Fortunately for me, my cetme (if I have one) was built by an individual who knew his way around steel. If you buy a cetme do it in person. Check the bolt, bolt gap (you'll need feeler gauges), fsb cant, and general fit and finish.

 

The front sight on a cetme IS adjustable for both windage and elevation, just like the saiga. The rear sight is graduated, again just like the saiga. You just need a special tool and a few rounds.

 

 

YMMV But just for good measure..........get both, sell one, keep one.

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eeeek thread from the dead!!!! :unsure:

 

 

But anyways... it kinda depends what you want, and what you plan to use it for. For hunting, mag capacity is a non-issue, and there are now 20-rd mags being made for the Saiga.

 

Accuracy? Let's see. I own a couple CETME's, a G3, couple Saiga's, M14 and a couple bolt action 308's.

 

Open sights, all the semi's are close. The 21" Saiga and the G3/16" Saiga are probably the best, M14 a close second. The CETME's do fine, but the standard sights are not as adjustable, and both of mine need some triple tree corrections. They group fine for battle rifles shooting surplus ammo.

 

Want to scope something? Saiga shines here with the side rail, the cast CETME is second, stamped G3 and CETME 3rd, and my M14 last, due to an out of spec receiver. The stamped CETME/G3 receivers tend to bend if you use the wrong mount, altho the low style work ok. With a good M14 receiver, you pay relatively high dollars for a decent mount.

 

Ammo choices.. Saiga and M14 win here. They'll eat anything you feed them. The fluted chambers in the CETME/G3 don't like commercial cases and pressures much, altho steel case works well. Reloading you can do fine.

 

SHTF? The CETME/G3 gain ground, because mags can be had for as little as $2. The M14 you pay more, the Saiga much more, for hi-caps. But truth be told, I'll grab a few of my AK's first, or even a "cough" AR...

 

History? CETME/G3 and M14 are way out in front. Even tho the Saiga is AK based, it is not an issue weapon of any kind.

 

Bottom line.. most any Century built CETME or G3 "can" work out of the box, but a lot don't. If you don't mind tinkering around and have the tools and skills, they are neat weapons.

 

If you want something to buy and shoot, then the Saiga is more your cup of tea.

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I have owned a Cetme and a FAL, got rid of both of them for the same reason. That being, both of those rifles were chambered for 7.62 x 51 NATO, not .308. And, there is a difference, mainly in the pressure developed upon firing. The .308 round averages 62,000 psi, the 7.62 NATO round develops around 51,000 psi. Thus, .308 ammo is not safe to shoot in the Cetme or FAL. Yes, I did fire a few .308 rounds in both rifles with no problems, but I might of just been lucky? Any how, I now own a S-308, had it about a month and I'm in the middle of a full conversion, couldn't resist. Buy what you want, but the mil surplus ammo that made the Cetme and Fal attractive due its price is no longer so. That stuff has gotten as expensive as over the counter name brand .308 ammo.

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