Gabe Suarez Book "Saiga Shotgun Gunfighting"

[tover26 18]

I'm posting this in the general forum as well. I thought Suarez/Infidel was a partner here, but can't tell right now - I seem to see their ads floathing around from time to time. Here's where I picked this up... Gabe's Book at OneSourceTactical.com...

 

I haven't seen too many threads about the different books and videos out there and how they apply to a Saiga. Since I started researching shotguns, I've wanted to get into a combat training class for these things. I've enjoyed some of the different threads about that stuff.

 

This book was very thought-provoking. It seems every week, we have a thread about the S12 or rifle as a HD solution. Recently there was a thread about whether the S12 had actually seen any action. I found myself wishing that there were some more statistical data backing up some of the claims made in the book. Gabe seems to be one of the definitive go-to guys for training so I'm taking it on faith. If correct, I thought these comments were shareworthy:

• S12s, since they started being availabe in the USA around 1999, have come to dominate competitive shooting, a claim made in the book. I did some research on this at work yesterday and couldn't for the life of me find out much about competitive shooting other than FYI info and the occassional scoring system and high scorer in specific matches.
  
• Gabe notes that saiga-smiths will begin to evolve and I'm glad to see a lot of them. My first S12 is a 2.5 port spare parts gun that I'll figure out and get working on my own but I doubt I'll ever trust or consider it "reliable". I bought a 2nd one from Tac47 and just having inspected it at my FFL, it's striking what a better gun I recieved from Tac47 TCS by Tac47 (pictures to be posted when it clears MD holding requirement)... than the sporter configuration out of the gunshop by RAA.
  
• Gabe uses a term "caveman simple" to describe preferred movements and tactics. The transition to pistol is of note because of all the discussion in the forum about preferred mag size. Gabe's recommended transition to pistol and ready carry would be a lot more complicated with any mag bigger than the 5 rounder he recommends... my opinion... letting the shotgun fall over your head into slung position would predisposition a longer mag to catch and snap. The caveman simple approach is to train and do easy movements because everything gets harder when you're under fire.
  
• Storing ammo in magazines. Gabe notes that he has stored brass and low brass ammo in his magazines for up to 6 months without it affecting his ability to shoot and fire and that he has not observed any detents in the ammo that would affect the round's performance at up to 6 months. There are so many threads about this in the S12 forum, I thought I'd toss that out there.
  
• Using the magazine as a forend grip... just like in Spike TV's Deadliest Warrior "Spetnaz vs Green Beret", Gabe uses the magazine as a carry support. The Spetnaz guy did the same. The book doesn't say it but all the 1960s style black and white photos show it.
  
• Gabe describes his feelings about the BHO and LRBHO in some detail that boils down to... any S12 off the rack - you can figure out and train yourself to load a magazine with the bolt closed. Polishing the bolt carrier can help, but any S12, converted or not, polished or not, should allow you to load on a closed bolt. I've seen some of you, in different threads, are able to do this or at least claim to. When I've tried, I get nervous about crushing the top shell edges. I guess it's a different rocking motion than just getting the mag locked in.
  

 

If any of you have been looking for a book that has basic tactics, strategy, and training recommendations, I think this book pretty much nails it. It's a fast and easy read. While I think it could have been more informative and have better picture quality, I found that many of my assumptions about use of the S12 were effectively challenged and provoked a reassessment.

Edited July 25, 2009 by EricinMaryland

[uzitiger 193]

When Gabe Surarez joined the forum he had a short video showing how to insert the magazine into the shotgun with the bolt closed and I tried his method and it works. Previously I used to lock the bolt open and insert a magazine which required less effort but was much slower. I practice with it to keep proficient with his method so I would like to see his book.

Edited July 25, 2009 by uzitiger

[Glockmonger 18]

When Gabe Surarez joined the forum he had a short video showing how to insert the magazine into the shotgun with the bolt closed and I tried his method and it works. Previously I used to lock the bolt open and insert a magazine which required less effort but was much slower. I practice with it to keep proficient with his method so I would like to see his book.

Are you typing of an S12 mag change or rifle? If S12 I would like to see it.

[topmaul 42]

I bought the book, and agree with most of what Gabe says, however I do differ with a few of his points. That said it is well worth the read. I am not involved in combat or combat training I do my shooting in competition however much we learned in competition is directly applicable to combat, not everything, at the time the book was written he was several years behind those of us who have been using it for competition. He was discovering things we had looked at and tried them moved on. I think I was the one who pointed out to Gabe that the Saiga Factory 8 was not any longer than the standard AK 30 round magazine. Also I don't see much advantage to a 5 round magazine Saiga then any other semi automatic shotgun when it come down to it. Once Gabe took a look at the factory 8s he seemed to move away from the 5s.

 

He is opposed to the AGP 10 which are the main stay of my Saiga Magazines supply although I do like the Sure Fire mags as well.

 

I have the greatest Respect for Gabe

 

I can load any of my magazines including my factroy 8s on a closed bolt takes practice but can be done the trick is to use sufficeint force it is not going to go in there easy but once you get it you can do it.

 

when using 5 round magazines, I load one round in my chamber then let the bolt go home next insert a 5 rd mag, then fire 5 rounds and hot reload another magazine. You will find you can keep track of your ammo pretty easily, Gabe says you can't count your shots in combat, not sure about that having never been in combat but I can say this I have almost a sixth sense about the number of shells in my gun, and almost instinctively know how much ammo is in my gun in competition. I would hope all that shooting and training would carry through in the real thing.

 

You can keep track of 5 rounds pretty easily.

Edited July 25, 2009 by topmaul

[Jpanzer 1,265]

Had the DVD laying on my desk for a week now. Still haven't watched it...LOL

Edited July 26, 2009 by Jpanzer

[tover26 18]

So, Topmaul, you're able to do a 5/8/10+1 loading? When you insert the mag, how much force are you talking about? As I said, I always feel like I'm going to crush the edge of the top shell. I have some snap caps though and so I'll figure it out with a snap cap on top... not worried about crushing that.

 

Does anyone know of other semi-auto shotgun books or videos out there? I'm going to pick up the combat shotgun book/video by Gabe as well very soon. For my dad's birthday I picked him up a survival book, that was kind of tongue in cheek and humorous... gourmet roadkill recipes, etc. However, there were some serious comments in there. One of them was that there is a huge difference between confronting a single assailant versus a gang... that there's a gang mentality that comes into play and things that would work in a normal HD/HI scenario would not if the assailants were a gang or part of a gang. The difference being that when someone joins a gang there's a group think at play that says, "I'm going to die in this gang." With that mentality, you need to be of a mindset that you're in for a fight of your life and anything you can do to be last man standing is what you need to do. I hadn't ever really thought of this before, but it kind of makes sense to me. I would guess that, to the extent possible, there are books and videos and things to be had out there by people far more knowledgeable than me. Inasmuch as I can learn from them, I'm that much better forewarned and prepared.

 

Anyone else read any books about semi-auto or shotgun skills, techniques, or issues that would be worth checking out?

[sawx75 2]

I picked up the book after scouring the internet for information about the S12. It is the ONLY source of information in book form. It has many great points, but most of these points can be found right here on the boards. It has some crappy blown up photos and completely blank pages, but what the hell, he's a gun trainer, not a publisher.

I do want to know what Gabe has to say about his insights and evolution of form when it comes to handling the S12. I agree with another thread that I would love to have him do a video on the S12 alone with that crazy Spetznaz guy from the TV show. Any information would be great, due to the fact that I think the s12 is an under appreciated firearm.

[topmaul 42]

Eric,

If you jam 11 round into an AGP 10 rounder you are not going to get it to load on a closed bolt. Same with a Russian 8 with 9 in it. The reason you can put an extra round in these mags is to allow room to load on a closed bolt.

 

Here is what I want you to do, take a 10 round AGP mag put 8 rounds in it, close the bolt on your weapon and make sure it's on safe, now hook the front of the mag in the mag well push it forward and while your pushing the mag forward pivit it back till it latches in the magazine well after you can do that fairly easily put another round in it and do it some more before long you will have it down, and be loading 10 round mags in to your gun

[tover26 18]

That's just crazy Topmaul. Now, I'm going to have to insist that you post this as a new topic. When I first got my Saiga, I think I looked everywhere for info about how to do this and found a ton of threads about modifying the magazines, polishing the bolt, and that it could be done. When I said 8+1, I meant manually loading 1 and then loading a full 8 round mag on the closed bolt. What you say about leaving the mag empty and working up to a full mag makes a lot of sense, but I think people interested in this will miss it because this is a book review thread.

 

If you'd humor me, maybe you would also post a bit about what competition means. Is it the gun, the ammo, what you're shooting at that makes it competition? Is competition any different than the training we've been talking about, like with SI, except that you're scored?

Edited July 26, 2009 by EricinMaryland

[Jpanzer 1,265]

Never had been able to load on closed bolt before, but last evening sat down and really tried to figure it out. Used both a AGP with ten rounds of 3" magnum buck and a Promag with ten 2 3/4" slugs in it.

 

After about 20 minutes I got the hang of it. It can be done, but there is a bit of a technique to it. The problem is at this point it takes me longer to do it this way than it would to use the bolt hold open and rack it in an open bolt.

 

Maybe practice will correct that though...

[Juggernaut 11,054]

it's tricky... but you get used to it pretty quick... Gabe has some pretty cool (one developed by Dan-O) ways to reload the S 12

[corbin 621]

Yeah,

The Dan-O method really works well for me, though I'm still trying to get the hang of the regular "rock and lock" method with the bolt closed.

 

For those that aren't familiar, you basically take your dominant hand and place it palm down on the top of the receiver cover, with your index and middle finger spread apart like a peace sign. You then hook your fingers down over the top of the receiver so that your middle finger (if your right handed) catches the cocking lever. You pull the action back and hold it while your other hand replaces the mag. After the new one is in place, you can keep your off-hand grasping the front of the mag if you like, then release the charging handle and get back on the trigger, if need be.

 

 

 

Corbin

[tover26 18]

Yeah, I agree with JPanzer. Last time I was at the range, I tried this and started getting really flustered. It's amazing how something easy enough at home without stress can begin to complicate with even the addition of other people shooting. At home, I can get it with about half a mag. It seems that until you can get it with a full mag, the missing ammo capacity would be an issue. I also tried shooting and loading left-handed. Man, what a difference that is. Almost like relearning everything from scratch. It gave me a keen appreciation for the much fewer threads about "anyone have a left-handed whatzit?!"

[lvjeffro 30]

I have had my S-12 a short time and just received my 12rnd clear surefire and my 10 rnd surefire mags and I can load the 10 round into the gun on a closed bolt with little to no extra effort...the 12 rounder I have to mod to fit...

 

I can see why people polish their bolts and want magwells, not a very simple system for reloading...I wouldn't want to keep my gun this way...