Jump to content

thumbhole stocks and the import ban


Recommended Posts

ok, so I've been up late reading legal text, again. I have come to the point where I THINK that it MIGHT be legal to do a saiga conversion (move the trigger) , but use a thumbhole stock WITHOUT using other USA made parts.

 

There seems to be some confusion about this, because the (now expired) AWB stated that thumbhole stocks are considered "pistol grip" (therefor BAD).

 

However, the 1990 IMPORT BAN stated that thumbhole stocks were "sporting" and therefor legal for import, and that is why some AKs (and other rifles) made it into the country with thumbhole stocks.

 

So, here is the important question,... Does a thumbhole stock still make a semi-auto rifle into a "sporting" configuration, legal for import (or assembly)?

 

Or did the ATF change the deffinition of "sporting" to exclude thumbhole stocks?

 

If I am correct in this, it means we can use the dragunov style stocks for our saiga (and other AK variant) convertions, AND NOT WORRY ABOUT FORIEGN PARTS COUNT. :rolleyes:

 

Which would save a ton of money (if you are willing to "make do" with a thumbhole stock) :super:

 

I (for one) would rather save the extra $100 ( tg, md, piston, stocks, etc....)

 

just buy a choate machine tool dragunov Mak-90 stock set (comes with foregrip) for only $45 or a fiberforce (sux IMHO) for $55

 

what do the other hobby lawyers think? (or know) :angel:

Link to post
Share on other sites

As I understand, the ATF now views the addition of a thumbhole stock as being the same as a pistol grip. You are right though, its not in the law anywhere. If saigas were imported with a thumbhole and signed off as sporting by the secretary of treasury, then you'd be OK. But changing it yourself, the ATF wouldn't like.

 

That's just what I've been told when I suggested it some time ago.

 

Personally, I wouldn't mind someone challenging all that BS since the whole "sporting" determination ISN'T IN THE 2nd AMENDMENT!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Amen KySoldier.

 

Although the ATF is inconsistent on the thumbhole stock front... I can guarantee you that you cannot add one to a Saiga shotgun. Saiga rifles may be a different story as - often times - rifle v shotgun regs may differ.

 

Your comments on stocks are right on... they are considered a pistol grip now - at least on the Saiga shotgun. I wrote the Tech branch in '99 or '00 inquiring as to the legality of adding a custom thumbhole stock design to a Saiga 12. I even included a crude drawing and it looked like a monte carlo stock moved forward... literally it looked like an oversized monte carlo stock. I got shot down in flames.

 

I'll try to find the document, but if my memory serves me correct I was so pi##ed off that I think I threw the response away becase (at the time) you could still get thumbhole low-cap rifles. So their interpretation didn't make any sense to me... But hey, I don't write them to get a response that 'makes sense'; I write them to find out if my a## is covered or if something is legal. Sometimes I write just to say 'hello' or 'how are you doing' :angel: ... just BS'n about this point.

 

-- OTHER INTERESTING INFORMATION ABOUT WRITING THE TECH BRANCH --

 

First of all, always get a resonse in WRITING. I've come to expect complex, inconsistent responses from the Tech Branch. And to some extent, I can see why... because almost every inquiry can be viewed in mulitple ways. So, consider how budgets within governmental departments grow (complexity leads to confusion, confusion leads to the need for laws/ruings, more laws/rulings leads to more budget and personnel to investigate/prosecute which leads higher pay grades and power for those in charge of the departments); then flip a coin...

 

If you're going to contact them, ask ONE simple question per inquiry. If other questions relate to it or involve similar weapons... write another letter. Keep it simple and direct - because that's the only way to get a simple and direct answer.

Edited by RDSWriter
Link to post
Share on other sites

well, I know the new SAR imports had to be retrofited with thumbhole stocks, it's a rifle that can accept high capacity magazines. For whatever that's worth... Anybody remember seeing a newer sar with the thumbhole?

 

Also, after these 20 rnd saiga 308 magazines get produced, we may ALL have to put in USA parts, even with a normal stock because..... dum dum dum!!!!! "that has the ability to accept high capacity magazines" is also in the "sporting use" clause.

 

:eek:

 

or am I seeing double again from to much lawyer reading? :sadam:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Which SARs are you referring to? Pre-99 receivers... they are grandfathered. With regards to requiring everyone to add parts, they won't force retrofitting. For more info on this topic read the thread in the 7.62x39 froum entitled "30 round mag, stock rifle = illegal right"

 

With regards to the 308 mags... if you want to insert one in your rifle I'm not sure if you would have to add other US parts due to the way 925(d)(3) specifies the magazines. (once again refer to the previous forum)

 

On the bonus side of the hi cap 308 mag saga... it's 3 US parts.. so you need to replace only one imported part with a US part for a PG conversion... I think. (I'll be asking how many imported parts on the 308 board in just a minute). If you use the US magazine parts for US count in a PG conversion, jJust make sure to sell your 8-rounders. Why? Because if the 8s only fit in your rifles that require US magazine parts to be 922(r.) compliant, you may find yourself in 922(r.) violation due to the "Constructive Intent" regs of ATF.

 

Confused enough? if yes, just repace enough US parts on the firearm itself and forget all this stuff.

Edited by RDSWriter
Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe it was last year when the ATF tripped on century for some reason, and made them start putting wood thumbhole stocks on their SAR rifles

I don't know why exactly, but I am assuming something to do with the import ban.

I saw a few in gun stores soon afterwards. I never found out the details about it. I am just assuming it was import ban related.. or maybe they didn't have enough US parts?

 

or maybe it was because they took high cap magazines?

 

I would like to forget about all this legal stuff, but I just got a 100% hard chrome MAK-90 (original thumbhole stock), and I just noticed it has a threaded muzzle under that hardchrome muzzle break... I would replace the TG and stock, but all the internals are chrome too :D it's got the thumbhole stock on it, but I'm worried about the threaded barrle under that "non-permanently attached" muzzle break, and I'm worried about if a dragonov stock would be illegal (choat style, not fiberfoce) and that got me thinking, about all these conversion we do on saigas... and if a thumbhole is STILL sporting... because that could save a lot of people a fair amount of money :smoke:

 

 

Which SARs are you referring to? Pre-99 receivers... they are grandfathered. With regards to requiring everyone to add parts, they won't force retrofitting. For more info on this topic read the thread in the 7.62x39 froum entitled "30 round mag, stock rifle = illegal right"

 

With regards to the 308 mags... if you want to insert one in your rifle I'm not sure if you would have to add other US parts due to the way 925(d)(3) specifies the magazines. (once again refer to the previous forum)

 

On the bonus side of the hi cap 308 mag saga... it's 3 US parts.. so you need to replace only one imported part with a US part for a PG conversion... I think. (I'll be asking how many imported parts on the 308 board in just a minute). If you use the US magazine parts for US count in a PG conversion, jJust make sure to sell your 8-rounders. Why? Because if the 8s only fit in your rifles that require US magazine parts to be 922(r.) compliant, you may find yourself in 922(r.) violation due to the "Constructive Intent" regs of ATF.

 

Confused enough? if yes, just repace enough US parts on the firearm itself and forget all this stuff.

Edited by santanatwo
Link to post
Share on other sites

If it's got a thumbhole in its original. imported configuration you can replace it with another thumbhole. If it didn't have one (in the case of Saigas) then, most likely, you can't add one unless you remove enough imported parts.

 

But - in the case of the Saigas - if you want to put a thumbhole on your rifle, you have to move the firecontrol parts and purchase new parts anyway. So if you use US FCG parts and a US thumbhole... you've just removed the firearm from needing to comply with 922r because you have 10 or less imported parts.

 

I could talk about this topic for hours because there are numerous inconsistencies as to when/how the ATF allowed thumbholes on rifles. THINK ABOUT IT.. they now consider thumbholes to have a 'pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action.' Based on this logic you should be able to replace a thumbhole with a standard pistol grip because the firearm already has one... but that's not the case. So apparently there is some difference that they have never publicly communicated. Additionally the same rifle, imported at two different points in time can fall under differing rules. The thumbhole crap is one of the most confusing areas of clauses 922 and 925. Just stick by the rule in the first paragraph of this and you'll be fine.

 

As for the threads under the nut, don't worry about them if the nut is still welded on. A ton of older imports had nuts welded on the barrel or sight to cover the threads. Specifically the Romanian 7.62x39 ROMAK AK series and the Springfield Armory (import) SAR8s come to mind. The weld jobs are a joke and can be easily removed (legally) if you remove enough imported parts.

Edited by RDSWriter
Link to post
Share on other sites

well, according to the research I did, there were apparently some mak-90s imported with compensators NOT permanently attached, and some were welded on (seems a bit random) Mine is not welded on, like I said, it is all hard chromed, (a very flat finish?) the muzzle break is easy to take off, just a few twists. So, I am probably legal here, I mean, it was imported from the factory like this...

 

The story I hear on my chrome mak, is that it was a police department's custom ordered rifle (100% factory hard chrome) but I have no written data to back this claim (nore have I even found reference to ANY hard chrome ak in lots of searching) , and after a few years the police dept got rid of them. Which leaves me wondering, is it legal for a civilian? Or is this one of those that made it in without a permanently attached MB..? I would think it IS legal for civilian use, since if it was getting around any laws by being "for police issue", why the heck would they put the horribly uncomfortable thumbhole stock on it?

 

ok, so thanks for the help,

 

if it came with a thumbhole it's ok to switch thumbholes.

 

if it came with a "sporting" buttstock (SAIGA) then thumbholes are considered pistol grips.. sounds "reasonable"....

 

choat is only about $45 including foregrip :super: which takes care of 3 parts technicaly (pistol grip, buttstock, foregrip)

 

I found a local supplier of tapco trigger groups for $31.. is that a steal or WHAT?!?!? :super:

 

Anyways, where does that put the late 2004 SAR thumbhole imports?

 

:ph34r: please do go on, RDSWriter :eek: ...I'll be here all week... :smoke:

 

If it's got a thumbhole in its original. imported configuration you can replace it with another thumbhole. If it didn't have one (in the case of Saigas) then, most likely, you can't add one unless you remove enough imported parts.

 

But - in the case of the Saigas - if you want to put a thumbhole on your rifle, you have to move the firecontrol parts and purchase new parts anyway. So if you use US FCG parts and a US thumbhole... you've just removed the firearm from needing to comply with 922r because you have 10 or less imported parts.

 

I could talk about this topic for hours because there are numerous inconsistencies as to when/how the ATF allowed thumbholes on rifles. THINK ABOUT IT.. they now consider thumbholes to have a 'pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action.' Based on this logic you should be able to replace a thumbhole with a standard pistol grip because the firearm already has one... but that's not the case. So apparently there is some difference that they have never publicly communicated. Additionally the same rifle, imported at two different points in time can fall under differing rules. The thumbhole crap is one of the most confusing areas of clauses 922 and 925. Just stick by the rule in the first paragraph of this and you'll be fine.

 

As for the threads under the nut, don't worry about them if the nut is still welded on. A ton of older imports had nuts welded on the barrel or sight to cover the threads. Specifically the Romanian 7.62x39 ROMAK AK series and the Springfield Armory (import) SAR8s come to mind. The weld jobs are a joke and can be easily removed (legally) if you remove enough imported parts.

Edited by santanatwo
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...

2004 SAR imports are somewhat confusing to me. All of them (as imported) are now low capacity firearms that cannot accept large capacity military magazines. For some reason if a firearm cannot accept a LCCM, then apparently the thumbholes are okay and sporting? That may depend on how the rifle is or is not configured when it is imported.

 

Alternatively, the importer could be importing a unfinished rifle that has no stock. Once it hits the shores, enough US parts are configured on the rifle to enable the use of a regular PG or thumbhole... I honestly don't know how the importers are spec'ing their weapons from offshore.

 

In short, I'm not sure how/when each imported rifle gets configured nowadays... maybe someone else can shed some light on the latest mports.

Link to post
Share on other sites

the now VOID awb considered thumbhole as illegal.

 

the 1989 import ban had nothing to do with thumbholes thats why they were still importing them up until 1994.

 

reason why saigas didn't have thumbholes was b/c they were imported after 1994.

 

thats why they are so "sporting". they had to meet all the demands of the 1994 awb.

 

i thought the definition of a pistol grip was an upright grip separate from the stock.

 

even the little low cap wasr's were imported with thumbholes back before clinton's sorry ass fucked us.

 

I'M considering the thumbhole as a damn thumbhole. the law says nothing about a thumbhole IS considered pistolgrip.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with you that no law has been passed that says a thumbhole is a pistol grip. This being said, since 1998, the definition of sporting has changed for importation purposes, and I surmise that thumbhole with regard to 922r may have too. Reference CFR Notice Number 807 for the ATF's stance on this issue.

 

"ATF received 129 comments in response to Notice No. 807. Fifty-seven comments, representing 44 percent of the comments received, expressed general support for the temporary regulations. However, these commenters requested that the final rule include a number of changes.

 

One commenter recommended that the term "pistol grip'' be defined so that it includes so-called thumbhole stocks. The term "semiautomatic assault weapon'' is defined in the Act as including semiautomatic rifles and semiautomatic shotguns which have 2 or more of the features specified in the law. One of the features specified is a "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.'' The commenter stated that thumbhole stocks function in the same manner as pistol grips and, therefore, should be included within the definition of this term.

 

ATF agrees with the commenter that replacing a separate pistol grip with a thumbhole stock does not remove the pistol grip as a feature. A semiautomatic rifle or semiautomatic shotgun with a thumbhole stock and one or more of the other features specified in the law would be a "semiautomatic assault weapon'' as defined. However, ATF does not believe it is necessary to provide a separate definition of "pistol grip'' or any of the other features listed in the statute."

 

So... the ATF's position is that a thumbhole stock does contain a pistol grip and the ATF feels no need to define what a pistol grip is by amending the CFR. This link provides a summary of this text, but not Notice Number 807 in it's entirety.

 

Analysis of comments of 807 and other

Edited by RDSWriter
Link to post
Share on other sites

TWGLADF:

 

I think you're comment is right on, a thumbhole stock (per the ATFs comments on it containing a pistol grip) would - in essence - make thumbhole stocks two imported parts per 922r... a stock and a pistol grip. Hmmm.... glad I never took this approach to any of my rifles...

Link to post
Share on other sites

comment on the sporting comment.

 

I cant think of a MORE sporting gun than an ak47 or other semiauto clip fed gun. you cant tell me that they have no sporting use, as people regularly use them in competitions, and MANY MANY more people use them for plinking. sporting use, what a crock of shit.

Link to post
Share on other sites

in alot of states they are perfectly legal for hunting too!

 

even with a 30 round cap mag!

 

here in la. it is!

 

:devil::devil::devil::devil:

 

i've packed my ak with a 30 rounder into the woods many times!

 

never know when a 500 pound hog may decide he wants you for charging practice!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

im putting a dragunov style stock for a ak/mak-90 on my saiga,. and of corse i had to get a new F.C.G. so i should be good with the parts count,..im also thinking of putting a drag. style brake on ill post pisc as soon as i can.

 

now this butstock came with the fore grips which where promptly put on my

wasr-10,..which came with the slant brake , bayo lug,.two 30rd mags,.and a side folding buttstock. it shoots great and looks,...well,...evil. :angel:

 

but i have a serious question to ask,..... the little mechanisim that locks the to the rear on the saiga,.......how the **** does the that spring for it go back in?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 10 months later...
im putting a dragunov style stock for a ak/mak-90 on my saiga,. and of corse i had to get a new F.C.G. so i should be good with the parts count,..im also thinking of putting a drag. style brake on ill post pisc as soon as i can.

 

now this butstock came with the fore grips which where promptly put on my

wasr-10,..which came with the slant brake , bayo lug,.two 30rd mags,.and a side folding buttstock. it shoots great and looks,...well,...evil. :angel:

 

but i have a serious question to ask,..... the little mechanisim that locks the to the rear on the saiga,.......how the **** does the that spring for it go back in?

 

 

If you change the Saiga to a PG configuration, you'll need (5) US parts to stay legal. No more than 10 can be of foreign manufacture. Thumbhole counts for two, if it is US made.

Link to post
Share on other sites
but i have a serious question to ask,..... the little mechanisim that locks the to the rear on the saiga,.......how the **** does the that spring for it go back in?

 

 

What are you referring to?!!!?

 

 

 

:smoke:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...