potential import problem

[jimmbswu 0]

Referencing the 922r, 925(d)(3) and large capacity military magazines discussion on the .308 forum:

 

30 round mag, stock rifle = illegal right

 

Fine parsing indicates that, according to 925(d)(3), an foreign weapon (more than 10 parts foreign) is not sporting, primarily if it can accept a "large capacity military magazine" (LCMM).

 

For Saiga-12, this interpretation poses a special problem. The US Army recently adopted the Modular Shotgun System, which uses the Saiga-12 magazine design. Therefore, by default, all Saiga-12 magazines are now "military magazines." According to the AWB [now defunct], the 8-rnd linear feeding device is large capacity, so the 8-rnder is now LCMM.

 

If Stony Brook follows through, their NLF device will also constitute LCMM. Therefore, Saiga-12 can accept LCMMs, making it potentially unsporting, and the next time BATF reviews Saiga-12's import status, they will have to ban it!

 

It is unfortunate that we have to rely on the *Incompetence* of the BATF to support our hobbies.

 

Jimmy

[USMC_LB 4]

This is what I have been warning against since the FIRST time someone mentioned "the dreaded device we wont mentioned" now known as non-linear feeding device...

 

Glad I got mine....

 

LB

 

 

PS dumasses

[Doerdie 0]

Your whole point relys on them being designated a LCMM. Are they the same mags? Have you seen them? They can be large cap feeding devices and be sporting. I bet the factory did the same they did with the rifle mags, made them different from the sporting mags. If they did not, they will if it creates a loss in overseas sales. Remember...follow the money.

[jimmbswu 0]

If you look at the published pictures of the modular shotgun system, you'll notice that the designers used 2 different mags. The prototype used a proprietary mag, but the newest production uses a mag that looks really, really like a Saiga mag. So the designers probably took what was the most available shotgun mag at the time for their weapon design, kind of like how most new .223 carbines use the M-16 mag design.

 

Plus, Rusmilitary's comment about Saiga mags needed for OIF/OEF operations strongly suggest this link.

 

Anyway, I just had a thought:

If Izhmash takes some US parts, put them in the Saiga, then tries to export them into the US, would they still come under 925(d)(3) since they meet the US parts count?

 

Just think of the possibilities! Saiga-12Cs straight from Izhmash with a SAW grip!

 

Jimmy

[RDSWriter 5]

You noticed that I never actually mentioned that this may happen to the Saiga 12... I thought about it... I was just hoping that this thought would not get posted. But I knew if I gave enough detail one of you may figure out this possibility. I was hoping that you wouldn't explicity state it though.

 

Anyway....

 

The ATF will make their proposed rule and have a period for feedback.. Folks we need to keep our eyes on rule changes that are proposed for 27 CFR. If they propose it, we need to contact our legislators and get the NRA ILA on the case IMMEDIATELY as well as write the ATF and provide direct feedback too.

 

WORSE CASE SCENARIO

This issue may befall the Saiga 12 if 8 rounders are DEFINED as Large Capacity Military Magazines for shotguns. The good thing is that it will only last as until Izhmash creates a new version that doesn't use the same magazines. For us though... all we have to worry about are getting the mags for our older guns as I doubt Izhmash would have to change anything other than the mag. Additionally, I suspect that they would continue to supply old magazine types because they would still be producing the old style version for the military.

 

BEST CASE SCENARIO

The ATF has already classified the Saiga 12 in its 'sporting' configuration as a sporting firearm after the 1999 rule change to 925(d)(3). Hence it is currently considered sporting and importable in this configuration using only 5 round magazines. Putting an 8 round mag in the shotgun configures it in such a way as to make it unsporting (already a violation of 925(d)(3)... unless you remove enough US parts to make it a domestic firearm. Once enough imported parts are replaced it is considered domestic and 925(d)(3) does not apply. Additionally, the model being provided to the military is a variation of the sporting configuration (maybe )

 

Using the same logic as (can't remember the court case or rulings that reference it) when the ATF delcared that military firearms used in recognized sporting activities (e.g. hunting) are not - all of sudden - considered sporting... the reverse logic may hold water too. The opposite logic may prove out... namely that sporting firearms used for military applications are not necessarily military firearms... they are sporting firearms that happen to be used by the military. Some sniper rifles based on sporting rifles come to mind immediately - sporting firearms used in military applications are not, per se, military firearms. Unfortunately all the ones I can think of are not semiautomatic.

Edited March 3, 2005 by RDSWriter

[gunnergrif 0]

Man o' man, never a dull moment on the Saiga 12 HI-CAP-CITY mags...

[Caspian 32]

uhh....and this is different from a FAL or CETME how?

 

Look, as long as the proper number of US parts are installed, then the issue of a "foreign weapon" is a moot point.

 

For all intents and purposes, a converted Saiga is no different than a remington 1100.

 

The sky isn't falling.

 

caspian

[Bvamp 604]

the way its been being asked is a stock saiga + high cap == ?

 

to which the answer is, and has always been, it is illegal.

[RDSWriter 5]

The easiest and safest way to address this is to just make sure that you remove enough imported parts to exempt the firearm from 922r. Debate over, mute point... dead already...

 

We can debate the issue all we want, but the simple fact is that none of us is willing to bet 5 years in jail without some additonal clarification or new ruling from the ATF.

 

I personally think that the term Large Capacity Military Magazines does not apply to Saiga Rifles, the S20s and S410s in their original configuration using non-military magazines. I'm not so sure about the S12, but I'm leaning in the opposite direction since the ATF forced EAA to stamp 'Law Enforcement Only' on the mags. (They did force them right?... I haven't actually seen any OFFICIAL letters/rulings from the ATF regarding this matter to EAA or any dealers).

 

REGARDLESS, REGARDLESS of my personal beliefs I have never and will never stick a high capacity mag in an imported, post-1999 semautomatic firearm wihout reducing the imported parts count to less than 10. It's better to be safe than sorry.

Edited March 3, 2005 by RDSWriter

[Diggler 0]

Of course, the thirteen parts of a Saiga include the three parts of a magazine, so if someone makes a US high cap magazine of any type and you only kept foreign low-caps, it would switch between a 922 regulated firearm and an imported firearm depending on which magazine you had inserted. So if someone made a US high cap magazine, you wouldn't have to change anything unless you wanted to add a pistol grip or folding stock and still use a foreign magazine.

[Caspian 32]

the way its been being asked is a stock saiga + high cap == ?

 

to which the answer is, and has always been, it is illegal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well of course. i'm sorry for not understanding the question.

 

This is similar to the 10 round single stack AKs that were imported. They require ZERO US parts b/c they don't take military mags.

 

Caspian

[RDSWriter 5]

I'm pretty sure the Saiga rifle has at least 14 parts without a grip because the trunion is typically counted on AK actions. The letter that everyone refers to from Soupbowl indicates 13 for a Saiga SHOTGUN... it mentions nothing of RIFLES. So you would need more than a magazine to exempt a Saiga rifle from 922r (I think.)

[CrazyJ 0]

Yeah, but this thread is in the shotgun forum :-P

[RDSWriter 5]

Thanks for keeping me sane CrazeyJ

 

I have been writing about this topic on multiple forums... and got Kunfuzed... Yes, we are on the shotgun forum.

Edited March 3, 2005 by RDSWriter