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555JM

How do 5.45x39 ballistics compare with .223?

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Folks, Excellent point-counterpoint! I just finished watching a History Channel or Weaponology (forget which) on the history of the AK47. Lots of interviews with Kalashnikov...even speaking with E. Stoner about the 223 - 545 development. The episode carried AK development right up to Saiga...including all calibers thru shotguns. Lots of video showing muzzles during firing of different rounds and brake types, ballistic gel /wounded Afgani...bullet types...all kinds of interesting stuff. Kalashnikov was dead set against the 545 and laughingly blamed Stoner for the Soviet gov decision to push the AK74....after Viet Nam. Great show...I'll watch it again...when it comes. Cool video of factory making them too.

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Folks, Excellent point-counterpoint! I just finished watching a History Channel or Weaponology (forget which) on the history of the AK47.

 

 

if you recall what show that was, please let us know.

 

 

A couple of interesting reads about the Hornady loads.

 

http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?op...53&Itemid=1

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06...x39mm-tap-ammo/

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"Domestically" produced ammo using imported steel berdan primed cases does not constitute domestic ammunition. As any import law change or importer shortages/political changes will result in the same lack of ammo.

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supply of 5.45 is another topic/ lets stick to ballisitc comparison ITT. It looks like the JSP's are some of the best performing rounds in ballistic gel, so how does a soft point 5.45 stack up against soft point 5.56?

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Go read post #2, and I agree. Went to Midway-USA and there are no bullets in 0.214 configuration, or 5.45mm spire point or otherwise.

"...so how does a soft point 5.45 stack up against soft point 5.56? " Can't really do a comparison, as the reloading manuals I have don't have it listed, and if there are no bullets for it, reloading is kind of moot, hence, so is trying to compare it to the Spire Point bullets of the .224 class, aka 5.56 NATO. 5.45 x 39 is a military round, specific to Soviet Union, and because it was created to tumble upon impact, it probably won't find a standing in the sporting arms world as a medium sized game round.

 

This page: Rifle Reloading Data lists a LOT of data for reloading on so many calibers, even some really odd ball stuff like the 5.6mm x 57 RWS, or the 6.5mm Grendel, but not one load data for 5.45 x 39.

 

So, for sake of the OP request, the .223 is a superior cartridge for "our" ability to load with a large variety of bullets and styles made from various bullet manufactures, giving a huge margin of practicality. The Russian 5.45 x 39 was made for a specific reason, to tumble and to be flatter shooting than the 7.62 x 39mm Soviet. Russians have a tendency to invent things of their own design, often discounting what other achievers have done. It was so with the optics of cameras and of "look-alike" Leica cameras that are made in the Soviet Union, and many things that they do, which is socialist based. It would have been a lot easier for them to make the rifle in .223 and change the rifling and create a tumbler of a bullet that they were after, but as such, no... they invent a whole new cartridge. Go look at that reloading data page. Many of the cartridges are there from wildcats and obsolete ideas, mixed in with the well known of the .223 Remington (renamed that from 222 Remington Improved), the .222, the .243 (which would have made a LOT better AK round than the 7.62 x 39, as it is really a .308 necked down to the .243 dia bullet)

 

My take on 5.45 x 39, is Caveat Emptor, especially if you have ANY inkling of hand loading for it, or doing serious hunting with it in the future.

Edited by Darth AkSarBen

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Reference?

 

Just type in 5.45 Horandy into a search engine.

 

To me they are similar bullets. Obama could ban the 5.45 and all imported ammo, but he could just as easily ban .223. There are countries that ban ammo that is used by their militaries from sale to their citizens.

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Reference?

 

Just type in 5.45 Horandy into a search engine.

 

To me they are similar bullets. Obama could ban the 5.45 and all imported ammo, but he could just as easily ban .223. There are countries that ban ammo that is used by their militaries from sale to their citizens.

 

 

No, actually he couldn't. Banning importation would just need a internal decision with no vote by anyone. Banning the 223 for American citizens would require a law to be passed to that effect. Proof of this would be the barrel importation ban, no vote, just a memo.

Edited by Pointer55

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Well the whole ammo ban is a stupid argument anyway because domestic ammo producers would start making it. Its called supply and demand. There would be big demand!

 

Plus If you are going to have one gun maybe its not a good idea to have a gun in 5.45 because maybe just maybe a foreign ammo ban happens, it is still going to be produced here in the US but it will be expensive. Expensive like .223.

Now if you have more than one gun in multiple calibers than it does not matter. Buy the 5.45 now because it is cheap as hell and .223 is not especially the good military surplus .223.

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The OP asked about the 5.45 being more than just the cheap ammo. The numbers (MV, ME) say it is inferior to 223. it has been posted that the 5.45 is meant to tumble, whereas the 223 is meant to fragment, what is better, who knows, but still ballistically the numbers say inferior to 223. So I think the answer is the only SOLID positive of the 5.45x39 is the availability of cheap SURPLUS ammo. Not even anything as drastic as a ban, but sometime the SURPLUS ammo is gonna run out, it is SURPLUS (old,extra,ect.) after all. That being said the 5.45 aint a POS round either and the ammo is cheap. I have a 5.45 and I do agree with you vegas, "Buy the 5.45 now because it is cheap as hell"

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They are different bullets designed to do different things. One tumbles, one fragments. I don't think the 5.45 is inferior because of some numbers on paper shot of out who knows what length rifle. Maybe the 5.45 is more lethal at what it does.

 

As far as the AK platform is concerned I think there are a lot more magazines and guns available for the 5.45 than the .223.

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While this thread is still active...

 

Y'all have any idea what Silver Bear's "new bullet style" is all about? J&G Sales is advertising this. You guys own any?

 

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/am...roducts_id/1457

 

I say 5.45 will survive longer than we will. Give it as much a chance to be developed as the .223/5.56. If someone ever manufactures brass cases, it would make a nice little cartridge to reload.

Edited by m1key

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Well, I consider myself fortunate to have the .223 and enough magazines for what I will need. I have reloading dies and powder/primers and plenty of bullets to choose from. Cheapest and most accurate ammo I can think of, and in a bullet style that suits me for getting rid of coyotes, raccoons, wood chucks and other pests on our farm. Next one will be the .308 Winchester Saiga. A truly fine caliber!

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5.45 ballistics are as follows. Same weight bullet as a .223 (53gr vs 55gr) but instead of going 3200fps (223) they travel 2900fps... basically they're weaker than a .223.

 

Wolf MC:

 

 

7.62 - 124gr -2330 FPS - 1500 ftlbs

 

Now the .308 Winchester in 125 gr at 3212 FPS Pretty explosive round at that speed. Ref: http://www.handloads.......wder=

 

You gain an extra 882 FPS with the .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51) as compared to 7.62 x 39 Only drawback is the weight of 100 rounds of .308 compared to 100 round of the 7.62 x 39.

 

I am glad to hear this. I will have to look for ligher weight bullets in .308. Now I have a million more questions. i have a Saiga 16 inch I converted myself (902c compliant) and am interested in the higher fragmentation capability here. Is it a fact that this will fragment and cause more soft tissue damage then a 5.56 M193 or 855? Are there range limits for that fragmentation to occur in the .308? With the 16 inch barrel is a lighter bullet preferable or not?

 

Thanks for the info and great post.

 

Update;

After seeing the 150 grain .308 JSP wound profile picture on the previous page that answered my question. The 5.56 round is not anywhere near the .308

Edited by Landis

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do you guys actually think your getting 3200 fps with .223 out of a 16" barrel?

 

pass that shit my way.

 

5.45 for the win!

Edited by Captain Hero

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I would say get both. Stack up ammo for the 5.45x39 which is still the cheapest surplus ammo. We are getting it from Russia. They have a big military and surplus comes from the age of the ammo. As long as it it legal we should be able to get it. If we cant get it then the maker here will start making it. Then we will have good brass cases and bullets for handloading. 5.45x39 can be handloaded now but it is a bit of a hassle.

 

Use your 5.56x45 for practice with handloads. It can still be done fairly cheap if you shop for components. Cost is about the same as surplus 5.45x39 if you dont count the price of brass.

 

The velocity of the surplus 7N6 is 3030 fps from my 16 inch barrel. Havent chronoed the 55 gr from my 5.56x45 AK yet but should be about the same. The 3250 fps was from a 20 inch barrel as specified from the military. They probably would have used the .222 Remington but had to lengthen the case a little to get enough capacity to get the 3250 fps.

 

Things have changed since the first post on this thread. The 5.45x39 rifles are not as cheap as they were then and the mags are not as available either. But the ammo is still out there. A gun with no ammo isnt worth much if the S really HTF. I wouldnt count on having a resupply for a long time no matter what cals you have. You will be stuck with what you have on hand. JMHO

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yeah i have both, and both are good, but i just like the 5.45 more. but especially when 7n6 is in the picture. but with that said, ive seen the two chronoed side by side, and the .223 was faster, but not by much. maybe 30-40 fps on average. depends on the lot.

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I have some real world experience with the killing power of the 545. I shoot 545, 556 and 762X39 as well as 308, 410 and 12 gauge in Saigas. The 545 has become my go to cartridge for my primary nemesis in west Texas, Hogs and Coyotes. The round is much more accurate than 7.62X39 with my converted Saiga shooting .75 inch groups at 100 yards with a 7X scope. It is much more devastating on hogs than the 556, using silver bear 60 grain ammo and reaches out and touches coyotes as well and as accurately as my AR. I also get a few more rounds downrange at groups of hogs after the 1st killing shot than 7.62, due to less muzzle climb. In a hog eradication environment, where a body hit results in eventual death, it's a very good choice.

 

Time will tell on the ammo situation. Hornady does produce their vmax steel case round in 545 and it seems to be an awesome self defense load, given the destruction Ive seen it deliver to hogs. AS long as the Silver Bear ammo is around, I'm a happy camper!

 

IN a SHTF situation, I'm probably opting for my 556s and 7.62X39 but I hope I have room for the 545 and 308 plus beau coup ammo!

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I've wondered for some time now why nobody has come up with a 5.45 style bullet for the 223/5.56. That should make the two rounds almost identical in takedown performance.

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