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.223 Accuracy woes...


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So yeah, I'm kicking around to get some ideas. I've already figured alot of stuff out on my own... I'm a fairly competent 'smith and I have built some precision bolt rifles that shoot .5 moa or better. I am, however, new to this AK thing and it is a different ballgame.

 

I first wanted to test my rifle just to see how capable it was. I mounted a scope (properly) and shot the rifle from the prone and on a soft rest. Results were abysmal. I'm talking 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards. After playing around for a few minutes, I remember watching the high speed camara showing the barrel whip in an AK firing. I mounted a 40mm scope on medium rings... had enough room between the objective and the rear sight blade to slip a couple of pieces of paper. I decided to get high rings to give me clearance, thinking that barrel whip could be slapping the scope (in which case I'm positive it was now).

 

Then I started playing with the forearm handgaurd, and noticed that it puts a considerable amount of pressure on the barrel. Buh bye handgaurd (for now... obviously I still have it but I'm going to develope something to float the barrel). It does look like my gas tube fitment with the gas block should have enough play to acount for heat expansion, so I don't think I need to mess with the has tube much if any.

 

After this, and with several different brands of ammo... from the fabulously cheap to high quality stuff... I've gotten my rifle to shoot about 2.5 moa. With Fiocchi ammo I was posting 1 1/4" groups @ 50 yards... though some did slip to 1.5".

 

 

 

 

So I guess the point is I'm going to share some of my learnedness, and plead for advice from those who know more... Some Observations I've made.

 

- The stock handgaurd fitment on my rifle degraded accuracy

- If you mount a scope, make sure you have lots of clearance

- I'm pretty sure that if the gas tube fits really tight that can degrade accuracy, especially as the barrel heats up

- Although I already knew before I tried, I had to try it anyway. Bipods and an AK just doesn't mix well unless you can keep the pressure off of the barrel.

- The most expensive varmint/match ammo did not produce the best results

- The rifle looks bad ass with PG, 30 rounder, scope, and the forearm removed. It really does... sexier than any AR and I love my ARs.

 

Here's some theories/questions I have for anyone who may know...

 

- I suspect that gas piston fitment into the gas block should make a difference in accuracy. Wiggle in the gas tube doesn't matter, but when the bolt slams home you want it to slam home the exact same way every time. If there is much play in being able to wiggle around the piston in the gas block, then that will degrade consistency/accuracy. Is this correct???

- How do you adjust headspacing on an ak... I have no idea how the barrel is attached to the trunion and I don't really want to start drilling out pins until I know exacty what is what. I'm assuming these rifles are headspaced to pretty loose tolerances. Correcting that could dramatically improve accuracy. I want to slip in a field guage when I get around to borrowing one to see if it closes on it.

- Can I remove the safety latch without drilling out rivets?

 

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited by 5whiskey
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While I rarely shoot a scoped rifle at 50 yards (for me scope=longer range shootin), My saiga 223 scoped shoots @ 3" 5 shot groups at 100 yards without much effort. With reloaded ammo I can get it down to 2" 5-shot groups at 100 yards. This "barrel whipping up and hitting the scope" thing you talk about sounds silly and is hard to even get a mental image of. The barrel is held into the FRONT trunnion by a barrel pin (look on the side under the rear sight for the pin) it is pressed out sideways. The safety Lever has no pins holding it in. I would STRONGLY suggest you google around to find a disassembly how-to and get some AK specific knowledge before messing around too much, as most of the stuff you posted just isn't right, not trying to be a smartass, just don't want to see you hurt yourself or ruin the gun.

Edited by Pointer55
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Nailoth would tell you this, but he's AWOL according to other web-sites.

 

Saiga's are really, REALLY picky on the ammo they eat. All AK's probably are, but most of us will tell you, and I know for a fact, that they will require some Indian Jones style exploration to find the "right" ammunition. I've finally settled on Remington's 123 grain 7.62x39 for my Saiga, and that was after it seemingly puked out on me (in reality, my scope refused to return to zero :ded: ).

 

So just keep searching for that sweet stuff. There is enough reloading equipment and information out there that certainly you can find something your rifle will love. I'll try and find it, but one guy managed to get 3 shots within an inch of each other by reloading the cartridges for his Saiga. It was on THR awhile back.

 

EDIT: FOUND IT ON PERFECTUNION! Here: http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?p=560175

Edited by Paladin_Hammer
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OK, let's see. Where do I start?

 

I would STRONGLY suggest you google around to find a disassembly how-to and get some AK specific knowledge before messing around too much, as most of the stuff you posted just isn't right, not trying to be a smartass, just don't want to see you hurt yourself or ruin the gun.

 

I could take offense but I wont. Suffice it to say I've built a rifle that will shot a 3" group at 500 yards. I know what I'm doing well enough to be safe to myself, bud. I promise. I do admit to not knowing a whole lot about AK workings just yet, as this project began this week and I've done nothing but get shot at by them before now. That's the main reason why I take no offense and why I started this thread. Most of the stuff I'm saying is not wrong, however. Handguard and gas tube pressure on the barrel can and will affect accuracy on any weapon. Headspacing will definately affect accuracy, no matter what rifle you refer to. I am not positive about the piston fitment in the gas block, but it looks like it would make a difference. Maybe I'm wrong on that one.

 

This "barrel whipping up and hitting the scope" thing you talk about sounds silly and is hard to even get a mental image of.

 

Stupid attack on my part. Obviously the barrel does not "whip up and hit the scope". However, with the medium rings the scope had about .05" clearance from the rear sight ap. The barrel whip can definately cause enough reciever flex to make contact with the scope in those tight of tolerances. No matter how absurd or silly it sounds. As a matter of fact, I know that was going on. Group size droped by half once I got high rings.

 

Dark and Paladin, I'm aware handloads and quality ammo will usually cut groups tremendously. I've tried 4 different kinds of ammo before I started playing around with the rifle, and all of them produced pretty horrid results. Hornady, Remington (not cheap UMC), Fiocchi, and Barnual... none of them produced a group less than 2" at 50 yards even after I changed scope rings... that is until I took off the handguard. Then Fiocchi dropped to about 1.25", which would be about 2.5 moa. I can live with that for now. I don't handload. I'm aware it would be a fun hobby none-the-less, but I really don't have time to shoot at this point, much less handload. Besides, building savages and 700s is my current hobby.

 

Last but not least...

 

While I rarely shoot a scoped rifle at 50 yards (for me scope=longer range shootin)

 

Obviously I agree, but I've been busy and my range has had to be my back yard for the past month (yes, it's safe I promise. I have an adequate backstop and the closest neighbor is over 1 mile away). I've had no chance to get time in at greater distances, and if you can't shot 2" at 50 yards you surely won't be able to @ 100. BTW, that's my "happy" point. 2 moa with this rifle.

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Welcome to these forums, 5Whiskey!! Pardon my manners. There are a lot of oddities about these rifles. They are shooters, but are loosely assembled. Remember the old adage about a helicopter? Definition of a helicopter is a collection of spare parts loosely assembled around an oil leak. Well, the Saiga and AKs are somewhere in between that and the Garand actions. They designed these to be cheap to build and and easy to teach. Accuracy is a often sought out quest for these rifles. One thing I did, and this seemed to make a lot of difference, is I kept cleaning my barrel every few rounds, which was usually at the end of the day's session, with copper bore solvent. I use Barnes CR-10 and also Sweets 7.62 copper bore cleaner. I meticulously clean out the bore and then use Hoppe's to finish out and then dry patch it till it comes clean. I can feel the difference. I can start to feel the grab of the rifling in the barrel. At the beginning I could not. You might give that a go also. Sometimes the simplest things can go overlooked.

There are many articles on the net about breaking in a barrel. Even though these are chrome lined barrels, it makes me wonder sometimes if even they don't benefit from a good break in.

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I meant no offense with my statements. I was just pointing out safety first and a couple of your statements caused concern. Obviously someone who is not sure how to remove an AK safety lever (it rotates up and then comes out the right side) should not even contemplate adjusting headspace (push out barrel pin and move barrel in or out of front trunnion), no matter how many bolt actions they have assembled, before getting pretty familiar with the AK platform ( as i stated in my post). Anyways peace and good luck.

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Just a quick question......what bullet weights have you been shooting? Most of these rifles have about a 1:9 twist. So, you could go thru 20 different brands of ammo and be shooting match grade grade, but if none of it is over 50 grains I doubt you could get much of a group. Second thing, you mentioned a pistol grip....so that means it has been converted????? If you are using the factory trigger group, that could be your problem. Take it from someone that works on helicopters, you cant shine boots with a hershey bar and its usually the simplest things that get over looked.

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As I said, peace and no offense taken. However, I have tried "(it rotates up and then comes out the right side)" this and trust me it doesn't fly. The safetly lever is blocked by the sear... and I'm pretty sure the BHO may prevent it from coming out the slot once rotated. Other than that, I know HOW to do it more or less... I was just hoping I was having another stupid attack and there was a way to do it without drilling out the rivets on the FCG... I miss accurizing my ARs at times :(. (BTW, the safety question has to do with adjusting the trigger without converting or installing a new FCG).

 

Redneck, it's not been converted, unless you count a tapco conversion. Don't knock me, I bought it that way and I'm trying to spend as little as possible (have 300 bucks in it so far). As for the weights... I'm very adept at matching a bullet to barrel. I've been using 55 pills, though I would love to get some 62 or 68 but 55 should still do fine out of 1:9. Further, what you speak is truth but it doesn't show up at 50 yards. Shooting a lighter than 50 grain bullet out of a 1:9 will over stabilize the bullet, not under stabilize it. Over-stabilization doesn't show up at close ranges. If I were shooting 72 grains out of a 1:12, though, you would be correct. It does have the factory trigger group, obviously, as it hasn't been converted. I was an 8541 before it was rebranded to 0317. Triggers can make a difference no matter how good you are... especially one as bad as the saigas'. Trust me when I say this, though. Even the most horrible trigger will not cut my group tremendously. But the trigger does still suck balls, the reason for the safety question.

 

 

 

Now, to round it off. I have succeded in being a bit of a smart ass and I'm sorry. I must admit I really need to "shut up and listen" sometimes. No matter where you've been, what you've done, or who you are... anyone, at any given point, can overlook the stupidest of details which throws a monkey wrench into the whole darn machine. That being said, thanks for the advice guys. Dark... I haven't given the bore a very thorough cleaning since I've bought it. A few loose cleanings with CLP, but no thorough cleaning with solvent like I baby my bolts with. I may do just that. Everything being said, I'm positive this rifle will hit 2 moa... maybe you guys are right it'll just take the right ammo. 2 moa is all I'm going for, after that I'm happy :). Cheers folks.

 

 

 

 

Last thing and I'm done... I'm not joking about the handguard thing. Maybe some fit worse than others, but I noticed a VERY big difference when I removed it. I mean it cut the groups by over 25%.

Edited by 5whiskey
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Whiskey,

Did you try the safety with hammer cocked or un-cocked? Seams I recall in one position it will not rotate and it might be with non converted only.

 

Frosty

 

both, and to my knowledge non-converted will not rotate out without removing FCG (barring me having an utter stupid attack, which I'm not above ;)) . I really don't want to do that... mostly out of sheer laziness.

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Forgot to mention one thing.....on your groups, are you seeing one flyer or is the group just spread out? I seem to remember somebody that found that the first round shot aka: the round that you slam the bolt fwd on, being a flyer and being almost an inch away from the rest of the group. The rest of the shots that the action of the rifle actually chambers the rounds being fairly tight groups.

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Forgot to mention one thing.....on your groups, are you seeing one flyer or is the group just spread out? I seem to remember somebody that found that the first round shot aka: the round that you slam the bolt fwd on, being a flyer and being almost an inch away from the rest of the group. The rest of the shots that the action of the rifle actually chambers the rounds being fairly tight groups.

 

You may actually be on to something there. It does seem like there is always one that is out. Also, it does seem like the most abysmal results I've seen came from hand feeding each round without using a magazine. Thanks for adding that man, I'll test for it ;)

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The safety comes out fairly easily only after putting in the new FCG moving the trigger forward.

 

One other thing I'll add. I shot that 3 shot group with just 3 bullets. Started out with a clean barrel and did my best to repeat each shot exactly. I use a magazine loaded with 3. I pull the bolt all the way back and let go, just like it would if it were cycling by itself. FWIW

Edited by Darth AkSarBen
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Saiga's are really, REALLY picky on the ammo they eat. All AK's probably are, but most of us will tell you, and I know for a fact, that they will require some Indian Jones style exploration to find the "right" ammunition. I've finally settled on Remington's 123 grain 7.62x39 for my Saiga, and that was after it seemingly puked out on me (in reality, my scope refused to return to zero 010.gif ).

 

And this is truth here. Thank you for that point. Honestly, I've never seen a rifle THIS picky over ammo... but it's not like I've shot everything in existance either. I've been around but not THAT much. With barnual ammo, I'm getting more of a pattern than group. With Hornady, it will group but there will be bad flyers. With Fiocchi, I get a true group. Shooting this morning, it was holding 2 to 2.5" until the barrel started getting real hot. I'm still shooting without the handguard... I'm going to make one that lets the barrel float when I get around to it. All in all, though, I was amazed at the difference between ammo. Barnual would shoot close to 6" "groups" at 100 yards. Hornady would shoot between 2 and 3, but there was always a flyer if I shot more than 3 rounds. Fiocchi is by far the best so far for this rifle. I can live without screwing around with headspace and whatnot, mostly becuase I don't feel like drilling out rivets. That's why I haven't settled on doing a full conversion yet, though I'm sure I will at some point just because of the awful trigger. Why couldn't they make this with roll pins like every other weapon manufacturer on the planet :D?

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Heya Peeps,

 

Anyone ever do the pencil bending magic trick? You take a pencil and hold it between two fingers and move your hand up and down just right and the pencil will LOOK like it's bending. I suspect the video you're refering to, which I have seen is nothing more than the same principal applied to a weapon barrel. I very much doubt either the 7.62 or .223 round has enough umph to do much to the barrel in a lateral direction, and very little in terms of any other direction. The recoil of the weapon and the manner of holding it simply caused the optical illusion that the barrel of the weapon is bending upon firing. Ordinance steel, even the cheapest ordinance steel, is simply not that maleable. Put your rifle in a vice and TRY to bend it if you think it's that soft. Just a theory, mind you, but a solid one.

 

 

So yeah, I'm kicking around to get some ideas. I've already figured alot of stuff out on my own... I'm a fairly competent 'smith and I have built some precision bolt rifles that shoot .5 moa or better. I am, however, new to this AK thing and it is a different ballgame.

 

I first wanted to test my rifle just to see how capable it was. I mounted a scope (properly) and shot the rifle from the prone and on a soft rest. Results were abysmal. I'm talking 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards. After playing around for a few minutes, I remember watching the high speed camara showing the barrel whip in an AK firing. I mounted a 40mm scope on medium rings... had enough room between the objective and the rear sight blade to slip a couple of pieces of paper. I decided to get high rings to give me clearance, thinking that barrel whip could be slapping the scope (in which case I'm positive it was now).

 

Jeff Waite

aka GIJeff

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FWIW, 5whiskey, my Tapco Intrafuse fore grip does not contact the barrel except at the pin at the front. The back is secured to the rear frame (body). So, I don't think that it really has a lot of pressure or influence on the barrel, and, if anything, it's consistent pressure at the front pin.

The handguard I refer to at their site: TAPCO INTRAFUSE HANDGUARD and a link to this thread of 3 shots I did with this handguard on the rifle: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=40409

Come to think of it I have had better groups even with some of my other reloads after I had changed out the handguard.

You might be on to something there 5whiskey!

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I hate to disagree with you, Jeff, but nearly all hanloaders know the barrels on rifles 'whip', even the .223. They make target barrel .223 barrel rifles thicker to help minimize that whip that happens. On youtube.com I downloaded a video of an AK firing in slow motion. It has the dust cover off and exposes the hammer and rebound spring and the bolt carrier. What I found interesting in that video, was the rear sight on that rifle literally moves up enough you can see underneath it. Watch it sometime. I have also seen videos of the AK-47 (7.62 x 39) slowed down and you can see a violet whipping of the barrel. Trick on reloading and any ammunition "tuning" is to have the barrel in same pitch and yaw at every time the bullet leaves the muzzle crown. Even a mis-shaped crown will allow gases to blow out of one side "MORE" than another side and take a normally stable bullet from the twist and destabilize it ever so slightly to obnoxiously bad, depending on the amount of muzzle flaw.

 

The barrel is a wave form of metal that "spits" out the bullet at the end and yes, it does move. You have a piece of obstruction moving down the barrel, spinning to boot, and it's under 50,000 PSI pressure. And, yes you can bend a barrel. I also saw a history channel where some Afghanistan was beating his barrel with a hammer getting it back into some kind of 'straight' . I'll pass on that rifle when it comes up for re-sale, thank you.. LOL

 

Edited and added this link: You really want to see the 7.62 x 39 AK-47 shooting in slow motion, so here is a direct link to the brief video. It's ony 41 seconds but watch carefully the rear sight move when the hammer strikes the firing pin.

 

 

I also took note on how little the bolt carrier actually came all the way back to slam into the rear receiver, if at all. Makes you wonder about those buffer guards.

Edited by Darth AkSarBen
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Heya Peeps,

 

I hate to disagree with you, Jeff, but nearly all hanloaders know the barrels on rifles 'whip', even the .223. They make target barrel .223 barrel rifles thicker to help minimize that whip that happens. On youtube.com I downloaded a video of an AK firing in slow motion. It has the dust cover off and exposes the hammer and rebound spring and the bolt carrier. What I found interesting in that video, was the rear sight on that rifle literally moves up enough you can see underneath it. Watch it sometime. I have also seen videos of the AK-47 (7.62 x 39) slowed down and you can see a violet whipping of the barrel. Trick on reloading and any ammunition "tuning" is to have the barrel in same pitch and yaw at every time the bullet leaves the muzzle crown. Even a mis-shaped crown will allow gases to blow out of one side "MORE" than another side and take a normally stable bullet from the twist and destabilize it ever so slightly to obnoxiously bad, depending on the amount of muzzle flaw.

 

The barrel is a wave form of metal that "spits" out the bullet at the end and yes, it does move. You have a piece of obstruction moving down the barrel, spinning to boot, and it's under 50,000 PSI pressure. And, yes you can bend a barrel. I also saw a history channel where some Afghanistan was beating his barrel with a hammer getting it back into some kind of 'straight' . I'll pass on that rifle when it comes up for re-sale, thank you.. LOL

 

Edited and added this link: You really want to see the 7.62 x 39 AK-47 shooting in slow motion, so here is a direct link to the brief video. It's ony 41 seconds but watch carefully the rear sight move when the hammer strikes the firing pin.

 

 

I also took note on how little the bolt carrier actually came all the way back to slam into the rear receiver, if at all. Makes you wonder about those buffer guards.

 

 

The video you are referring to is the exact same video I was discussing. While barrels do have a resonance when fired, let's just approach this from a physics point of view for a second......what force when a bullet is fired would cause the barrel to move UP AND DOWN? Force comes from the bullet firing, and is pretty much as concentric as it can be made with our current technology. The barrel is round, as is the bolt, bullet, and cartridge case......so according to the laws of physics the force should be equalized along the full inside surface of the barrel that the bullet has not cleared. when you blow up a balloon, there is a reason it tends to want to be spherical. If you imagine that your rifle barrel is a thicker balloon with the bullet leaving the end and thus releasing the pressure, you are probably getting close to what actually occurs, only the amount of movement would be VERY small. We ARE talking about ordinance steel here. NOW that said the RIFLE does move up and down due to the way the stocks are attached and the way they are supported. If you shot a rifle barrel, without a stock on it and with it supported straight up, there would be no lateral movement of the weapon, but there WOULD be a resonance and some "stretching" of the barrel as the bullet moves down the barrel and the pressures are absorbed by the barrel.

 

It is my firm belief that the video shows the movement of the weapon in a direction and manner that causes the simple optical illusion that it is "whipping" and that the barrel, while somewhat stretched by the pressures of the cartridge, is moved so little you certainly could not discern it with your naked eye, and also that it is NOT moved in any particular direction independent of the receiver. As to the rear sight moving, this is certainly possible due to the inertia of the sight holding it in place and the weapon moving, given the spring loaded nature of said rear sight. If, however, you analyze the forces acting on a rifle barrel, you will discover no force that should push on the barrel in any given direction other than straight back, and out from the rifling, explosions by their very nature WANT to be spherical, it is other forces on them that cause them to be other than spherical, such as a contianer (barrel) and plug (bullet) and stationary plug (bolt). Rifle stocks are almost always below the barrel line, which causes the ENTIRE WEAPON to move upwards due to the cantilever nature of forces exerted on the rifle. It's rather like steering with a tiller, if you exert force off axis to an object, it tends to want to turn. There is no force exerted by the firing of a bullet, however, that is not concentric with the barrel itself, and hence the observed "whipping" cannot actually occur. I just reviewed that video and you can't even see the barrel of the rifle in it. What you are seeing is the bolt carrier and maybe two inches of the breech of the rifle. One thing I can attest to is the looseness of fit in the gas piston and bolt carrier in the AK style rifle, which is what causes it to be so reliable and unaffected by dirt, sand, mud, or water in the action. No doubt the piston being on top causes the bolt carrier to try to turn within the channel it rides in and "jump" a bit in the video.

 

Now I'm no physicist, or rocket scientist, but I do know a little bit about ordinance, being a former tank gunner from the US Army. I've seen barrels that were plugged fired and observed how they were destroyed, and we're talking about 105mm guns here, not puny rifles. I've seen three feet of barrel disappear, seen the "cartoony" splaying of barrels, and seen high speed video of rifles and tank cannons fired, never once did I observe any ululation of any barrel of any type of weapon. As I said before, put your rifle into a vice and see if you, with all your might, or even a light press, can move that barrel ONE MILIMETER. Take a pencil or pen, hold one finger on top of it, and your thumb on the bottom of it, your hold on it should be slightly off center toward one end.....move your hand up and down several inches and you will SEE the pencil bending nearly 45 degrees. You have to hit the right frequency of up and down to cause the optical illusion, try faster and slower till you see it. It is a mere optical illusion, the pencil or pen hasn't changed in the least.

 

Muzzle crowns are indeed VERY critical, and boattail bullets release more gently and hence are inherintly more accurate, surely if you take a ball peen hammer to your muzzle crown you will experience a dramatic decrease in accuracy, so I can't disagree with that, but when you say tuning handloads to a rifle has to do with whip you are oversimplifying and using the whip where you should be using rifling twist. Bullet weights of a certain range like slower twists, and bullet weights of a certain range like faster twists in general. Powder charge and speed at which the bullet moves down the barrel is another factor that determines a great deal, light bullets need more powder to properly address the rifling than heavier bullets, again in general....when someone "tunes a load" for their rifle they are finding the proper charge, and bullet weight, and even headspace that THEIR rifle likes. Resonance is something that cannot be addressed much with bullet loading, mostly it has to do with barrel thickness and material....The US ARMY shooting team uses barrels that are chrome molly steel, which has superior resonance properties to standard ordinance steel....note that some of the best AR-15 rifles use chrome molly barrels, one notable is Stag, which is probably the best AR for the buck you can buy if you want out of the box performance and features. One article I read has a young shooter turning down his barrel till there is nearly nothing left but the rifling and breach area and wrapping it with carbon fiber, which appears to have superior resonance to standard materials. This was done as a science project and has started something of a revolution in barrel making, which is still just beginning to catch on. Well I suppose I've gone on enough about this topic, catch you around.

 

Jeff Waite

aka GIJeff

Edited by GIJeff
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Ah, Jeff, it's good to see a fellow that can type on a keyboard!! LOL Seriously, you have forgotten some key issues. 1> The bullet firing creates a lot of torque on the barrel which is causing it to spin, and the friction slows it down, hence the torque. 2.> If what you say, that a barrel does not move, then ALL of the AK-47s and such should shoot to one hole group with any ammunition you use, as long as they are secured in a vice or similar dead-man holding device to the same POA. It don't work that way in real life. In all actuality a barrel sort of begins a bit of rotational, "whip" if you will and depending on where the bullet is at the end of the sequence leaving the barrel, your point of impact will be slightly off. There are a lot of AR precision shooting rifles with fluted barrels. They are not fluted just for looks. They lessen the harmonic and vibration of the barrel and reduce the weight of a full size bull barrel. I know it really doesn't look like it's possible, and with physics, but the barrel really does a lot of moving around during firing. My old hand loader manuals, such as Hornady and others, would bring this to bear as one of the key interests in hand loading ammunition. You can fine tune the barrel to the pressure curve and bullet weight, AND velocity of the bullet going down the barrel to leave the barrel crown at nearly the same spot on it's rotational movement. Please reference this page: http://www.rifle-accuracy.com/harmonics.htm and at this forum site for what they are doing to increase accuracy of a VERY prone barrel to harmonics: http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=70255 This is also of interest, but a bit difficult to integrate on an AK: http://www.rifle-accuracy.com/smartstock.htm

 

Also this youtube.com video comparing the AK-47 to the M-16 rifle. Both rifles are shot in slow motion and a lot of info is passed on about the violent actions of the AK, including barrel vibrations and whip, and from folks a lot more "expert" than myself:

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"barrel whip" and "reciever flex" happens to a degree in EVERY FIREARM EVER PRODUCED. The physics of it may baffle you. Hell, it baffles me. BUT, that doesn't negate the fact that it happens. If it didn't happen at all, then there would be no need or talk of "free floating" the barrel of any rifle. They teach this to Quanitco Armourers. Even stiff, short actioned bolt rifles suffers from reciever flex and barrel whip to a degree. It's why M40s don't have scope rings/mounts under a certain tolerance. The act of any form of distortion, be it whip, flex, or whatever else you want to call it, happens at a pace faster than the human eye can detect. Refusing to believe it doesn't change this. In some firearms it is such a moot point that it's not required to be mitigated. In some firearms it does require it.

Edited by 5whiskey
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Ok, I'm think I'm understanding what your saying.

 

However I've also heard that a ultimak rail system (which replaces the stock gas tube with a new tube/picatinny rail and it clamps onto the barrel) will increase accuracy because it add's to how ridged/stiff the barrel is, thus causing less overall flex of the barrel when the weapon is fired. Same principal with a quad rail (I have a UTG). What say you to this? Does it increase the accuracy because neither system attaches to the receiver IE the barrel and the ultimak or the quad rail are "floating" with the barrel?

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5whiskey,

Please correct if I'm wrong, if you are trying to wring the best groups out of a Saiga rifle with an unconverted trigger group you will only frustrate yourself. Do the forward pistol grip conversion with name parts in the FCG or better yet, use a Red Star Arms adjustable trigger group in the installation. Once installed and adjusted correctly, you will truly have a "match trigger" and be able to concentrate on other items like custom loads, free-floating the barrel, etc. To say the factory trigger merely sucks or is good enough is giving it way too much credit.

Edited by Ronswin
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Heya Peeps,

 

Ah, Jeff, it's good to see a fellow that can type on a keyboard!! LOL Seriously, you have forgotten some key issues. 1> The bullet firing creates a lot of torque on the barrel which is causing it to spin, and the friction slows it down, hence the torque. 2.> If what you say, that a barrel does not move, then ALL of the AK-47s and such should shoot to one hole group with any ammunition you use, as long as they are secured in a vice or similar dead-man holding device to the same POA. It don't work that way in real life. In all actuality a barrel sort of begins a bit of rotational, "whip" if you will and depending on where the bullet is at the end of the sequence leaving the barrel, your point of impact will be slightly off. There are a lot of AR precision shooting rifles with fluted barrels. They are not fluted just for looks. They lessen the harmonic and vibration of the barrel and reduce the weight of a full size bull barrel. I know it really doesn't look like it's possible, and with physics, but the barrel really does a lot of moving around during firing. My old hand loader manuals, such as Hornady and others, would bring this to bear as one of the key interests in hand loading ammunition. You can fine tune the barrel to the pressure curve and bullet weight, AND velocity of the bullet going down the barrel to leave the barrel crown at nearly the same spot on it's rotational movement. Please reference this page: http://www.rifle-accuracy.com/harmonics.htm and at this forum site for what they are doing to increase accuracy of a VERY prone barrel to harmonics: http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=70255 This is also of interest, but a bit difficult to integrate on an AK: http://www.rifle-accuracy.com/smartstock.htm

 

Also this youtube.com video comparing the AK-47 to the M-16 rifle. Both rifles are shot in slow motion and a lot of info is passed on about the violent actions of the AK, including barrel vibrations and whip, and from folks a lot more "expert" than myself:

 

 

Went to that page, they are talking about .0039 movement in the largest of those measurements.....do you KNOW how small that is? That is three to four THOUSANTHS of an inch. You cannot discern that with your naked eye. Also I didn't say the barrel doesn't move, I said it doesn't move enough for you to see it which your data backs up. I have seen that other video as well and am convinced that the barrel cannot be moving as much as it appears to, it's possible the cleaning rod is moving and creating an optical illusion, or that the occilation is doing the same pen trick I mentioned before. Also if you look hard at the M-16 barrel it appears to "whip" also, but without the front sight point of reference is harder to discern. In any event you're entitled to your opinion, and clearly you're not going to change mine. Nuff Said.

 

Jeff Waite

aka GIJeff

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Heya Peeps,

 

5whiskey,

Please correct if I'm wrong, if you are trying to wring the best groups out of a Saiga rifle with an unconverted trigger group you will only frustrate yourself. Do the forward pistol grip conversion with name parts in the FCG or better yet, use a Red Star Arms adjustable trigger group in the installation. Once installed and adjusted correctly, you will truly have a "match trigger" and be able to concentrate on other items like custom loads, free-floating the barrel, etc. To say the factory trigger merely sucks or is good enough is giving it way too much credit.

 

I must have gotten REALLY lucky then, because while creepy in the first stage, I find my trigger not only acceptable, but damned good. I have a Swiss K-31 that has a match grade two stage trigger, and while the Saiga's is not nearly THAT good, it is far better than my other surplus rifles, and I'm quite satisfied with it as is without conversion to PG. I suppose it's safe to say your mileage may vary.

 

Jeff Waite

aka GIJeff

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Recrown the barrel.

 

These are mass produced guns that are built from a production line. More than likely your barrel has some inconsistencies that would be improved dramatically by a wood screw and some grit paste. I'll bet recrowning gets you within the 2 MOA that you're looking for.

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Heya Peeps,

 

movement. Please reference this page: http://www.rifle-accuracy.com/harmonics.htm and at this forum site for what they are doing to increase accuracy of a VERY prone barrel to harmonics: http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=70255 This is also of interest, but a bit difficult to integrate on an AK: http://www.rifle-accuracy.com/smartstock.htm

 

Also this youtube.com video comparing the AK-47 to the M-16 rifle. Both rifles are shot in slow motion and a lot of info is passed on about the violent actions of the AK, including barrel vibrations and whip, and from folks a lot more "expert" than myself:

 

 

Went to that page, they are talking about .0039 movement in the largest of those measurements.....do you KNOW how small that is? That is three to four THOUSANTHS of an inch. You cannot discern that with your naked eye. Also I didn't say the barrel doesn't move, I said it doesn't move enough for you to see it which your data backs up. I have seen that other video as well and am convinced that the barrel cannot be moving as much as it appears to, it's possible the cleaning rod is moving and creating an optical illusion, or that the occilation is doing the same pen trick I mentioned before. Also if you look hard at the M-16 barrel it appears to "whip" also, but without the front sight point of reference is harder to discern. In any event you're entitled to your opinion, and clearly you're not going to change mine. Nuff Said.

 

Jeff Waite

aka GIJeff

 

Well, just to be fair, I went to the page and followed the link to the page you listed in the above of the 0.0039" movement. In machinist terms that is read 39 ten thousandth. You're right it's pretty small. Closest to 4 thousandth. BUT that page you're referring to about such a miniscule movement was a test of heating 2 barrels in an oven and checking the vertical movement, such as when a rifle barrel heats up during shooting, and shots "string" up. That link direcly to "that" page is found here: http://www.rifle-accuracy.com/barrel-movement.htm , which, is aptly named "The Facts and Myths of Heat Induced Barrel Movement . Pardon my cut and paste of the html page title.

 

Only thing that says is that a static barrel will change positions slightly as it heats up. I think there are other considerations, and even though I won't change your mind about this concept of barrel whip and vibration, I just wanted to clear up that 0.0039" movement for others passing a look in here.

Edited by Darth AkSarBen
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With all this discussion about forces and vectors I started to visualize a long rubber band. Like the kind that the cheap balsa airplanes had back when I was a kid. You would wind them up and the rubber band would twist and develop knots and distort significantly. Now try and picture a bullet pushed by 50K psi traveling down the rifling applying torsional force to the barrel. You would imagine that torsional force would act to compress the barrel somewhat (thousands to ten thousands of an inch). Now, the bullet leaves the barrel at which point you got 50K psi of pressure on the end of the barrel you just torqued over pushing back against you, resulting in even more compression of the barrel. So if anything, the barrel is ever so slightly expanding and contracting with every shot. Factor in the heat generated by the bullet and it increases as that effects metal malleability. These are the most apparent forces acting on the barrel that I can think of. Each of which can effect the shape of it, but not by anything truly significant. But when you factor in the distance to target along with these other forces and factors, accuracy is obviously affected.

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The OP mentioned he had .05 scope clearance and had terrible groups, then he switched to a higher scope mount and group size shrunk. That then "proved", to him, the receiver flex or barrel whip was causing contact with the scope. I would think ALL that proved was his first scope mount was defective/loose. There is no way barrel or receiver is moving .050, none! more than likely the scope mount was moving/flexing under recoil if anything. My saiga .223 has 2 scope mounts 1 high (red dot), one low (12x scope). My low mount has .030 scope clearance and I can shoot 2"-3" 100 yard 5 shot groups all day without trying too hard with my reloaded "good" ammo. I do not take my handgaurds off or anything else "funky" to shoot, only a standard PG/FCG conversion done to the rifle.

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Pointer55, You might take a look at this slow motion video (not long) of an AK-47 firing in slow motion. Very cool, but I downloaded it to My Videos in a folder and have a program called FLV Player that I can play the video anytime and resize it to a bit larger Link For FLV Player Download The video is found here

 

Pay attention to how the rear sight jumps out of it's positoin upon firing.

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