Juggernaut 11,054 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 WTF??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
N4KVE 14 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) That is a buffer. Mind you it's metal, but that's exactly where a Buffer Tech buffer goes on an AK or a Galil. On my Saiga 308 I took out the whole recoil assy & used the tube type from an old milled AK. I used the spring from the 308 & installed a Buffer Tech buffer right where that metal buffer is. Works great. I don't know if all Saiga's come like that or not, but my s308 which I purchased over 2 years ago did. How about it s308 owners, did your gun come with that device? GARY N4KVE Edited August 11, 2009 by N4KVE Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zakmatthews 14 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Mine's got that, yeah. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acercanto 6 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Mine's got it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stansplace 414 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Mine has it as well. I removed it and tried one of the rubber ones. After one mag full of problems, I took out the rubber one and reinstalled the factory metal one like the one pictured, no problems ever since. The s308 will beat the hell out of your gun w/ out this in it though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Pictorial Essay.... LOL I believe my .30-06 has that too! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rd99fxdl 17 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 My .308 has it too. Works just fine so I left it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saigafreake 27 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Mine has it as also. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oxyehho 8 Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 ditto Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raoul_Duke 113 Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 Yup, my .308 has one too. But, a few months ago, I bought a few 7.62 X 39's and one of them had it in it too! Since I figured it was a buffer, I just put it in the 7.62 I shoot the most . . . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaPD 408 Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 WTF??? WHATS THIS FOR??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Never fix what aint broke! They do help not sure how unless the force is transferred back to the spring going the other way, which would be sheer genius if so. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 The bolt bounces off of it (from my understanding). My guess is that feeding the round takes to much energy for the recoil spring alone to provide. Think of it like this, hitting an anvil with a hammer vs. hitting a small block of metal rested on the anvil with the hammer. The hammer will bounce more hitting a small item as less energy is absorbed by the smaller surface area. If I'm right on this, it would explain why installing a rubber buffer could cause problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
N4KVE 14 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) The bolt bounces off of it (from my understanding). My guess is that feeding the round takes to much energy for the recoil spring alone to provide. Think of it like this, hitting an anvil with a hammer vs. hitting a small block of metal rested on the anvil with the hammer. The hammer will bounce more hitting a small item as less energy is absorbed by the smaller surface area. If I'm right on this, it would explain why installing a rubber buffer could cause problems. This is like the "Ford vs Chevy" discussion. There is no simple answer. I have 6 AK's including a Saiga s308 & they all have Buffer Tech buffers. Also 3 FAL's. I have never had 1 problem with any of these guns, ever. I probably don't really need these things, as I don't shoot that often, but I feel better that my bolt is flying back into a cushion than the receiver. Some people say the AK wasn't designed to have a buffer so why do we need it. Well if Vlad the Russian soldier blows up his 10 year old AK he goes to the Armory & gets a new one. We can't do that here. While some people do have problems with these buffers, I do believe they are caused by other symptoms. I can only reinterate that none of my guns have ever had 1 failure at all due to a buffer. My UZI & MAC 10 both came from the factory with some type of rubber buffer. GARY N4KVE Edited August 13, 2009 by N4KVE Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reverendfranz 160 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 The bolt bounces off of it (from my understanding). My guess is that feeding the round takes to much energy for the recoil spring alone to provide. Think of it like this, hitting an anvil with a hammer vs. hitting a small block of metal rested on the anvil with the hammer. The hammer will bounce more hitting a small item as less energy is absorbed by the smaller surface area. If I'm right on this, it would explain why installing a rubber buffer could cause problems. This is like the "Ford vs Chevy" discussion. There is no simple answer. I have 6 AK's including a Saiga s308 & they all have Buffer Tech buffers. Also 3 FAL's. I have never had 1 problem with any of these guns, ever. I probably don't really need these things, as I don't shoot that often, but I feel better that my bolt is flying back into a cushion than the receiver. Some people say the AK wasn't designed to have a buffer so why do we need it. Well if Vlad the Russian soldier blows up his 10 year old AK he goes to the Armory & gets a new one. We can't do that here. While some people do have problems with these buffers, I do believe they are caused by other symptoms. I can only reinterate that none of my guns have ever had 1 failure at all due to a buffer. My UZI & MAC 10 both came from the factory with some type of rubber buffer. GARY N4KVE Rebreastulous. Have you ever heard of anyone blowing up their 10 year old ak, because it didnt have a buffer? Ive seen aks that have shot out more than one barrel, and would still be ready to go if someone took care of them. The real problem with buffers in an AK is there is so much open space behind the bolt, that when the buffer breaks little rubber bits are likely to jam up your FCG. A better analogy would be that if Vlad's gun jams he dies, so since you dont shoot often, you can afford the risk. A metal buffer like that might be the best idea, as it isnt likely to rupture and fragment the way the rubber always will, if given enough time or wear. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
N4KVE 14 Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Rebreastulous. Have you ever heard of anyone blowing up their 10 year old ak, because it didnt have a buffer? Ive seen aks that have shot out more than one barrel, and would still be ready to go if someone took care of them. The real problem with buffers in an AK is there is so much open space behind the bolt, that when the buffer breaks little rubber bits are likely to jam up your FCG. A better analogy would be that if Vlad's gun jams he dies, so since you dont shoot often, you can afford the risk. A metal buffer like that might be the best idea, as it isnt likely to rupture and fragment the way the rubber always will, if given enough time or wear. You have valid points. I can only say that not one of my buffers has even started to rip yet. It probably is not necessary to have a buffer, but I feel better knowing a rubber cushion is back there. The placebo effect. LOL. But Saiga thought some kind of buffer was necessary by putting one back there. GARY N4KVE Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darth AkSarBen 20 Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Now inquiring minds know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darth AkSarBen 20 Posted September 5, 2009 Report Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) WTF??? It's not a buffer! I bought a .308 last night (9-4-09) and took it all apart, cleaned it, polished some parts and modified the magazine to hold 10 (9 comfortably ). Then this morning, I'm looking at it again and polished up just a few more parts, like the underneath of the bolt carrier that "rolls over" the hammer. If it's polished very smooth it makes the rebound so much nicer, and has less stress AND wear. Now for the "NOT A BUFFER" thing. It's a spacer. Plain and simple. I compared my .223 Saiga and it. Same length of recoil spring, same configuration except the space on the back. Why? The Saiga .223 has the ability to go all the way back to the rear trunnion and functions fine that way even it if the bolt carrier hits the trunnion. So why the difference? If it were a buffer they would have used a different material to absorb shock, even a modified spring at the end. It does nothing except add space to the end of the recoil spring. Let me illustrate: Note the picture of the .308 bolt and carrier when the spring is out and the carrier goes all the way back against the rear trunnion? Notice that small cut out where the bolt can come up and out for disassembly? See that hammer, under compression, has pushed up tight on the THIRD lug and has now popped it up out of place? This is a much smaller slot to remove the bolt than my .223 has, and also my .223 does not have the same extra lug that creates a lot of extra upward pressure against the bolt near this opening. A picture of the grove of the bolt on the .308 that rides along that rail and the bolt still inside that rail before getting too far back: Another closer picture, that both shows the bolt groove and the cut out slot that allows you to remove the bolt/ bolt carrier: This is what the bolt and bolt carrier look like when you have the bolt carrier moved back to the same position that it would be on recoil if the spring and that SPACER were there to stop the rearward movement of the bolt carrier: NOTICE the gap between the rear trunnion and the bolt carrier. This is about the same amount of gap that you would have if the spacer and rebound spring were in place. Notice also, that the bolt is still held within the confines of the rail in that special grove on the bolt, and is NOT prone to tipping out and up. My feeling is this is nothing but a spacer provided to keep the bolt carrier from coming too far back and possibly cause a problem with the bolt popping up through that cut out relief. I would not remove this spacer from my rifle if I depended on this rifle for my life. I truly think you would put yourself in jeopard in a battle field situation with this piece removed. I am also going to polish that slot on the bolt AND that rail. Probably use polishing emery cloth for the rail. This seems to be an area that "could" be of concern many many rounds down the line if that rail and bolt grove get worn from dust, grit and such. I intend to not only polish these mating parts, but make sure that some kind of good extreme pressure lubricant is used in this area, and clean this area every time I clean the rifle and bore. edit: When all else fails, look in the manual. On page 20-21 of my manual is the parts diagram and description. This is a part #40 and is called a Limiter. This makes sense, as it's purpose is to "limit" the amount of travel the "Bolt Support Assembly (#30) is allowed to travel to the rear. Edited September 6, 2009 by Darth AkSarBen 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reverendfranz 160 Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 WTF??? It's not a buffer! I bought a .308 last night (9-4-09) and took it all apart, cleaned it, polished some parts and modified the magazine to hold 10 (9 comfortably ). Then this morning, I'm looking at it again and polished up just a few more parts, like the underneath of the bolt carrier that "rolls over" the hammer. If it's polished very smooth it makes the rebound so much nicer, and has less stress AND wear. Now for the "NOT A BUFFER" thing. It's a spacer. Plain and simple. I compared my .223 Saiga and it. Same length of recoil spring, same configuration except the space on the back. Why? The Saiga .223 has the ability to go all the way back to the rear trunnion and functions fine that way even it if the bolt carrier hits the trunnion. So why the difference? If it were a buffer they would have used a different material to absorb shock, even a modified spring at the end. It does nothing except add space to the end of the recoil spring. Let me illustrate: Note the picture of the .308 bolt and carrier when the spring is out and the carrier goes all the way back against the rear trunnion? Notice that small cut out where the bolt can come up and out for disassembly? See that hammer, under compression, has pushed up tight on the THIRD lug and has now popped it up out of place? This is a much smaller slot to remove the bolt than my .223 has, and also my .223 does not have the same extra lug that creates a lot of extra upward pressure against the bolt near this opening. A picture of the grove of the bolt on the .308 that rides along that rail and the bolt still inside that rail before getting too far back: Another closer picture, that both shows the bolt groove and the cut out slot that allows you to remove the bolt/ bolt carrier: This is what the bolt and bolt carrier look like when you have the bolt carrier moved back to the same position that it would be on recoil if the spring and that SPACER were there to stop the rearward movement of the bolt carrier: NOTICE the gap between the rear trunnion and the bolt carrier. This is about the same amount of gap that you would have if the spacer and rebound spring were in place. Notice also, that the bolt is still held within the confines of the rail in that special grove on the bolt, and is NOT prone to tipping out and up. My feeling is this is nothing but a spacer provided to keep the bolt carrier from coming too far back and possibly cause a problem with the bolt popping up through that cut out relief. I would not remove this spacer from my rifle if I depended on this rifle for my life. I truly think you would put yourself in jeopard in a battle field situation with this piece removed. I am also going to polish that slot on the bolt AND that rail. Probably use polishing emery cloth for the rail. This seems to be an area that "could" be of concern many many rounds down the line if that rail and bolt grove get worn from dust, grit and such. I intend to not only polish these mating parts, but make sure that some kind of good extreme pressure lubricant is used in this area, and clean this area every time I clean the rifle and bore. edit: When all else fails, look in the manual. On page 20-21 of my manual is the parts diagram and description. This is a part #40 and is called a Limiter. This makes sense, as it's purpose is to "limit" the amount of travel the "Bolt Support Assembly (#30) is allowed to travel to the rear. Impressive. And Jugs called his OP a Photo Essay. I like this guy. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Exactly! The part is a shim to keep the bolt carrier from jumping the rail. When I built the wife's AK from all bastard parts, I had to use a buffer for the same reason. The well worn bolt carrier would jump the rails on the Nodak receiver. A BJ buffer shortened the stroke and cured the problem. That one was a Jam-O-Matic without the buffer, runs 100% with it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raoul_Duke 113 Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Well hell, that makes perfect sense. And since it worked, I never really questioned it. The more you know . . . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VanKiller 322 Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 You guys nailed this one pretty well. Yes it is a spacer, and if you take it out, you will have trouble with the bolt hanging up at the rearward position when you charge the weapon. This piece limits the travel of the bolt to keep it in the rails. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darth AkSarBen 20 Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 (edited) Thanks, Tom for the reply!! I found out that this "notch" also makes it a bit impossible to put the bolt and carrier back in place with the scope mount attached on the side. The mount goes over the dust cover and on the .223 this is not a problem getting the bolt/carrier back in place. But I find I need to push down on the left side of the bolt to get it to go into the notch when re-asembling wiht the .308, because of the upward pressure of that 3rd lug. I can't do that with the scope mount in place. Perhaps it's time to "modify" the scope mount and provide a cut out there so that one finger can push down... *grin* Edited September 14, 2009 by Darth AkSarBen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JK-47 33 Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 very concise reply Darth AkSarBen. Just wanted to add that there are millions of full auto AK's out there with shot out barrels that never failed at the trunion for lack of a buffer. The major differences between those millions of AK's and our saigas (besides full-auto) are that they are all 7.62x39mm, our saigas are in several different calibers. I've heard that the .223 versions and .308's are both overgassed. My .223 for example is a 20" barrel without any vents in the gas block or gas tube. I haven't shot it enough to see if this is a problem or not, but an overgassed system would benefit from a buffer; though a vented gas block and or vented gas tube might be a better solution. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 I've seen an S-12 that had the same issues. When the bolt carrier was all the way back, it would try to come off the back of the rails, making it hang sometimes. Put a green BJ buffer in it and all was good. Used as a spacer, it cured the problem. But buffers never really serve any purpose in an AK right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darth AkSarBen 20 Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 I used a small bit of spring (same size) on the end of my recoil spring assembly. It simply fits on the end when I put the spring back in the hole for it, and latch it in. It gives extra tension on the spring and helps to keep the brass from flinging so far and my brass does not get dinged so bad by the ejector. I also have an automotive door guard on it that I got at Autozone, about 2" right near the curve on the dust cover. Would you all like pics of that extra spring affair sometime? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reverendfranz 160 Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 Sounds like a great idea for a new post on what is the saiga/ak information and modification source (sourse?) on the internet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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