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Saiga 12's are only toys, not for serious use.


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+1. Now I know for sure you are not kidding!!!

The main thing you have to worry about is meeting the 5 requirements for accorite predictive fire. And in your case avoiding "Load Lay Elevation Error."

Saiga 12 ignorance might be a good thing. It keeps the price down and off the DD list. If people knew what I kown about these, they would cost more than Benellis and be DD. Let them think that they ar

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Well, I do 3gun, as many here do, and I have not witnessed "vast majority failure". So I'm going to have to call bullshit, with all due respect. :haha: Perhaps it's operator failure?

 

My focus is on gunfighting more than gaming and if the S12 failed repeatedly on me the only time "selective memory" would come into play is when I sold it and forgot about it.

 

I just did a match in Michigan and there were two S12's in my squad. Both ran perfect and kicked everyone's else ass. They cycle faster. have mild recoil, and on the blind stage where you had to breach a door and there were 18 targets to engage with a shotgun, guess who had the best times? (Of course we cheated and used our drums)

 

I'm just a local yokel, but more and more of the top competitors are using S12's, just too much of a performance advantage to ignore.

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Well, I do 3gun, as many here do, and I have not witnessed "vast majority failure". So I'm going to have to call bullshit, with all due respect. :haha: Perhaps it's operator failure?

 

My focus is on gunfighting more than gaming and if the S12 failed repeatedly on me the only time "selective memory" would come into play is when I sold it and forgot about it.

 

I just did a match in Michigan and there were two S12's in my squad. Both ran perfect and kicked everyone's else ass. They cycle faster. have mild recoil, and on the blind stage where you had to breach a door and there were 18 targets to engage with a shotgun, guess who had the best times? (Of course we cheated and used our drums)

 

I'm just a local yokel, but more and more of the top competitors are using S12's, just too much of a performance advantage to ignore.

The main thing you have to worry about is meeting the 5 requirements for accorite predictive fire. And in your case avoiding "Load Lay Elevation Error."

Edited by Crusader
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Well, I do 3gun, as many here do, and I have not witnessed "vast majority failure". So I'm going to have to call bullshit, with all due respect. :haha: Perhaps it's operator failure?

 

Hey, I call 'em as I see 'em. I was CRO on a shotgun stage at the SMM3G this year. I saw several shotguns barf on my stage, including two Saiga12s. In speaking to other ROs, those Saiga12s that did not barf on my stages did so on at least one other stage. Now these may have been highly tuned match guns (mag well, big mags, light ammo, whatever), but these were seasoned competitors who obviously thought they had rung out their guns pretty well... evidently not well enough.

 

I also know a handful of guys who run Saiga 12s in our local 3-gun matches (for which I am a match director). Of the two I spoke to at this month's match, one said he had his gun running OK at last (then crossed his chest and said a silent prayer). The other just rolled his eyes and said it had barfed on every stage in the match. Both were professionally converted guns, not bubba guns.

 

I'm sure that, with more experience, the 3-gun community will fathom what works and what does not on Saiga 12s, but they are not there yet. Oh, and when people ask if they should get a Saiga12, I tell them that if they do, buy 2... one for match use and one for spare parts. The lack of readily availabe spare parts alone disqualifies the gun for any serious applications in my mind (though this is, of course, not the fault of the gun design itself).

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These guys on Glock talk all appear to be talking about unconverted saigas. Not everyone out there is as resourcefull as you'll find on this board.

 

Is that a polite way of calling them IDIOTS? If so, I'm in!

 

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Wow, musta been a G20... :eek::lolol:

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Well, I do 3gun, as many here do, and I have not witnessed "vast majority failure". So I'm going to have to call bullshit, with all due respect. :haha: Perhaps it's operator failure?

 

Hey, I call 'em as I see 'em. I was CRO on a shotgun stage at the SMM3G this year. I saw several shotguns barf on my stage, including two Saiga12s. In speaking to other ROs, those Saiga12s that did not barf on my stages did so on at least one other stage. Now these may have been highly tuned match guns (mag well, big mags, light ammo, whatever), but these were seasoned competitors who obviously thought they had rung out their guns pretty well... evidently not well enough.

 

I also know a handful of guys who run Saiga 12s in our local 3-gun matches (for which I am a match director). Of the two I spoke to at this month's match, one said he had his gun running OK at last (then crossed his chest and said a silent prayer). The other just rolled his eyes and said it had barfed on every stage in the match. Both were professionally converted guns, not bubba guns.

 

I'm sure that, with more experience, the 3-gun community will fathom what works and what does not on Saiga 12s, but they are not there yet. Oh, and when people ask if they should get a Saiga12, I tell them that if they do, buy 2... one for match use and one for spare parts. The lack of readily availabe spare parts alone disqualifies the gun for any serious applications in my mind (though this is, of course, not the fault of the gun design itself).

 

 

OK, I think I get it now.

 

First, I believe you. And I think you already pointed out the issue. Competitors have modified their guns to max out it's advantage in 3Gun matches. It is first and foremost a fighting gun that was designed for buckshot and slugs. I would bet they are running buffers, xtra light loads, changed recoil springs, etc, etc.

 

I see the same thing with "tuned" 1911's, and other "race" guns. They run great when running, but they are picky about ammo and about maintenance.

 

We all can only cite our anecdotal experience, I have seen as many as 4 S12's at one match and none of them failed. Mine has never failed, and my buddy's, after he figured out he was overgassed, he installed Gunfixers plug, runs perfect.

 

Again, I do 3gun just to test equipment and hone skills. The S12 is a part of my battery and I would absolutly bet my life on it. And I stash spare parts for all of my weapons as a matter of course.

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For one I would take a XD over a glock.

 

As would I.

 

I own a Glock 21, S&W M&P9C, and a full-size XD40. In terms of quality, accuracy, function, and cost, they're pretty much the same. In terms of ergonomics, the M&P with its adjustable backstrap wins hands down. The XD is a close second because, even though it's comfortable, the grip safety has a tendency to pinch under recoil. The Glock feels like it was not made with human hands in mind; the grip angle is all wrong, and they're just too bulky, thanks in part to their using composite magazine bodies instead of sheet metal. When it comes down to it, the Glock 17 was a great innovation, but that was a long time ago, and very little has changed since. There are too many equally reliable and better-engineered polymer-framed, striker-fired pistols being made to justify my purchasing another one.

 

By the way, someone should point them to this thread to see how indignant they get when their favorite platform comes under legitimate attack!

 

 

 

get a XDM...I have one and it eats any kind of ammo I throw at it...it loves CorBon DPX 115 grain JHP +P(my personal favorite for SD)...im now saving up for the sub-compact version...in 9mm of course :D

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I would pay to see someone tell these guys to put down their range toys.

 

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Doesn't matter. They've made it perfectly clear that they think Spetsnaz are a bunch of mall-ninja cowboys.

 

You know what they say; Ignorance is bliss.

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Who cares what the guys of Glocktalk think? Who said they are anything but a bunch of shoe salesmen and attorneys that happen to own Glocks? Why should their opinion hold any merit, particularly over the members of this board, if for no other reason then most here have far more experience with Saigas?

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I read some dumb comments about the Saiga S-12 on the Glock forum. This one really got me laughing at the ignorance about a great shotgun:

 

The S-12 is a range toy. High capacity in a shotgun is overrated in the real world, especially with tube fed shotguns easily holding 6 to 9+1 rounds on tap.

 

I'm glad I got to handle and fire one of those converted pigs before I got the bug to buy one myself. All of the sucky ergonomic sins of the AK-47 with none of the reliability benefits. The one I fired choked on target loads twice.

 

Converted pigs? Tell that to the Russian Spetnaz who use the S-12s.

 

Recently the Cincinnati Police decided to replace the Smoth & Wesson 59 series pistols with the S&W Military and Police 9mms. They did NOT choose Glocks. I tried a S&W M&P at Target World in the Cincinnati area and it's the smoothest pistol I ever shot. I emptied 17 rounds in a baseball size pattern at 7 yards in about nine seconds. It was the easiest pistol to keep on target and shoot. The Cincinnati police gave S&W input on what they wanted in a pistol and S&W gave it to them. Forest Park replaced their Glocks .40s with S&W M&P .40s recently as well.

 

Some of the inputs on that forum were better educated and understood the advantages of the S-12s but the one I quoted shows his ignorance.

 

The S-12 has the benefits of the AK-47 in shotgun form and the advantage commonality with the AK and reliability so an operator only has to learn to use one weapon. I think Genady Nikonov designed a great shotgun based on the AK platform.

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I read some dumb comments about the Saiga S-12 on the Glock forum. This one really got me laughing at the ignorance about a great shotgun:

 

The S-12 is a range toy. High capacity in a shotgun is overrated in the real world, especially with tube fed shotguns easily holding 6 to 9+1 rounds on tap.

 

I'm glad I got to handle and fire one of those converted pigs before I got the bug to buy one myself. All of the sucky ergonomic sins of the AK-47 with none of the reliability benefits. The one I fired choked on target loads twice.

 

Converted pigs? Tell that to the Russian Spetnaz who use the S-12s.

 

Recently the Cincinnati Police decided to replace the Smoth & Wesson 59 series pistols with the S&W Military and Police 9mms. They did NOT choose Glocks. I tried a S&W M&P at Target World in the Cincinnati area and it's the smoothest pistol I ever shot. I emptied 17 rounds in a baseball size pattern at 7 yards in about nine seconds. It was the easiest pistol to keep on target and shoot. The Cincinnati police gave S&W input on what they wanted in a pistol and S&W gave it to them. Forest Park replaced their Glocks .40s with S&W M&P .40s recently as well.

 

Some of the inputs on that forum were better educated and understood the advantages of the S-12s but the one I quoted shows his ignorance.

 

The S-12 has the benefits of the AK-47 in shotgun form and the advantage commonality with the AK and reliability so an operator only has to learn to use one weapon. I think Genady Nikonov designed a great shotgun based on the AK platform.

Saiga 12 ignorance might be a good thing. It keeps the price down and off the DD list. If people knew what I kown about these, they would cost more than Benellis and be DD. Let them think that they are just toys.

Edited by Crusader
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I do think the points about hypocrisy on the boards needs to be noted. The blind partiality that some on GT show for Glocks is silly, but it is stupid to call their Glocks junk just because they dissed our Saigas. I personally own a bunch of Glocks and they have been perfectly reliable. My E-Tac shotgun was 100% from the get-go and my stock S-12 has been fine since I broke it in.

 

People who think steel-framed 1911s are the be all and end all of fighting pistols are just biased to the point of willful ignorance. Same goes for mister "tube-fed pump." All the same, either will easily handle the great majority of civilian (and, for that matter, police) defensive situations. Argue with reason rather than self-righteous condescension and you'll win a lot more converts. And for the record, converts are good. Who do you think is going to keep the vendors we all know and love afloat? Repeat purchases won't cut it. We have to have new blood.

Edited by stiletto raggio
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Who do you think is going to keep the vendors we all know and love afloat? Repeat purchases won't cut it. We have to have new blood.

 

I agree! New blood! Ok everyone, we're going over to GT, guns blazing. Maybe they will realize that Saiga-12s are better than their glocks. The survivors will literally line up to buy Saigas... if there are survivors... B'waaahahahah

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"Mine is a safe queen. I got it for the wow factor a few years ago... really? who needs an AK shotgun? I like my cheapo Mossberg 500 better."

 

"NEEDS" Who the hell is this guy, one of Obama's minions. The gun grabbers say you dont "need" a 14 round mag in that Glock of yours! Rights have nothing to do with needs my friend. :angry:

 

 

"The S-12 is a range toy. High capacity in a shotgun is overrated in the real world, especially with tube fed shotguns easily holding 6 to 9+1 rounds on tap."

Realy, good luck manuvering that long-ass 9+1 tube fed shotty in my house. Oh, and after you shoot off your 9+1 rounds, I will have rocked-and-locked a fresh ten rounder in my saiga before you even draw your little Glock-9. :lolol:

 

 

"I think its one of the most reliable semi-auto-shotguns available and really not sensitive about the load you use."

 

Finaly a feller with a little bit of sense! B)

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I don't get all the bashing and hate. I've owned Glocks since before they were cool. Everybody made fun of my "ugly" 9 mm. Unfortunately, I can't say the same as for my S-12. I came to the party a little to late to be on the ground floor. WTF is up with them OR you guys calling them out? Just talk to them nice and show them your converted S-12 and teach them. They can't help it if they have only seen pics of an S-12 and want to appear cool to their peers by bashing it. I went through the same thing with my GLOCK for god's sake when it was new. No one wanted a "plastic" "Mattel" pistol that was going to be banned because you could sneak it into an airplane past the metal detector. Who needs 19 rounds of 9mm? You must be an absolute shitty shooter, gotta have a .45 for stopping power - 9mm is shit, etc. Educate and unite. I LOVE my Glock 20 (10mm) and my S-12 (12 Gauge) and they each compliment one another. It is interesting to note that one is Austrian, and the other Russian. Where is the USA love? lol.

Edited by BronCobraJet
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I don't get all the bashing and hate. I've owned Glocks since before they were cool. Everybody made fun of my "ugly" 9 mm. Unfortunately, I can't say the same as for my S-12. I came to the party a little to late to be on the ground floor. WTF is up with them OR you guys calling them out? Just talk to them nice and show them your converted S-12 and teach them. They can't help it if they have only seen pics of an S-12 and want to appear cool to their peers by bashing it. I went through the same thing with my GLOCK for god's sake when it was new. No one wanted a "plastic" "Mattel" pistol that was going to be banned because you could sneak it into an airplane past the metal detector. Who needs 19 rounds of 9mm? You must be an absolute shitty shooter, gotta have a .45 for stopping power - 9mm is shit, etc. Educate and unite. I LOVE my Glock 20 (10mm) and my S-12 (12 Gauge) and they each compliment one another. It is interesting to note that one is Austrian, and the other Russian. Where is the USA love? lol.

 

 

I have nothing against how the Glocks are made. I have fired a Glock 22 (.40 S&W) and the damned thing had more recoil than most of the .45s that I have fired. I had a bit more trouble getting back on target with that thing. This is probably because the thing is so damned light.

 

My current handgun... (if ya wanna call it a handgun) Masterpiece Arms MAC-10. There's your USA love. The thing is a BEAST for a .45, and a ton of fun to shoot since the weight just sucks up the recoil... and the thing is accurate as a motherfucker. 30rnds of .45 > 19rnds of 9mm

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They can't help it if they have only seen pics of an S-12 and want to appear cool to their peers by bashing it.

 

I disagree. This is not grade school. These are adults (as far as we know :lol: ). They can help it.

 

Judging a gun based on seeing pictures on the internet, or seeing one in a shop (not even handling it, let alone shooting it) and then pretty much spouting that they are garbage, relegated to being a "toy", is ridiculous.

 

Even with the advocates we had posting in that thread in a calm, fact-filled manner, I doubt many will change their mind on S12's.

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