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.223 vs 5.56 chambers


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I am looking at getting a Saiga .223 and I have some questions with regards to .223 chambers vs 5.56 chambers.

 

First, is the Saiga a .223 chamber or a 5.56 chamber?

 

Second, can the Saiga .223 digest 5.56 ammo reliably and safely or does the rifle prefer .223?

 

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited by Shellshock1918
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I don't now about the chamber measurements but, I've never heard of anyone having a problem shooting 5.56 out of one.

 

.223's are manufactured in the same factory as the real military AKs chambered in 5.56 so it would not make sense to change the tooling for the civilian .223. (I'll shoot 5.56 all day long out of mine without a second thought)

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I am looking at getting a Saiga .223 and I have some questions with regards to .223 chambers vs 5.56 chambers.

 

First, is the Saiga a .223 chamber or a 5.56 chamber?

 

Second, can the Saiga .223 digest 5.56 ammo reliably and safely or does the rifle prefer .223?

 

 

Thanks in advance.

I got this from the ar15armory forum

 

There always seems to be a lot of confusion over the difference between a .223 and a 5.56 chamber. Is it safe to shoot this? Is it safe to do that? More confusion is added when some manufacturers advertise rifles with .223/5.56 chambers. I found this 'excellent' explaination on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington) and wanted to share it on this forum.

 

The .223 Remington is a sporting cartridge with the same external dimensions as the 5.56x45mm NATO military cartridge. It is loaded with a .224" diameter, jacketed bullet, with weights ranging from 40 up to 90 grains, though the most common loadings by far are 55 grains.

 

The primary difference between .223 Remington and 5.56 x 45 mm is that .223 is loaded to lower pressures and velocities compared to 5.56 mm. .223 Remington ammunition can be safely fired in a 5.56 mm chambered gun, but the reverse can be an unsafe combination. The additional pressure created by 5.56 mm ammo will frequently cause over-pressure problems such as difficult extraction, flowing brass, or popped primers, but in extreme cases, could damage or destroy the rifle. Chambers cut to .223 Remington specifications have a shorter leade (throat) area as well as slightly shorter headspace dimensions compared to 5.56 mm "military" chamber specs, which contributes to the pressure issues.

 

While the 5.56 mm and .223 cartridges are very similar, they are not identical. Military cases are made from thicker brass than commercial cases, which reduces the powder capacity (an important consideration for handloaders), and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. Test barrels made for 5.56mm NATO measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the SAAMI location. This difference accounts for upwards of 20,000+ psi difference in pressure measurements. That means that advertised pressure of 58,000 psi for 5.56mm NATO, is around 78,000 psi tested in .223 Rem test barrels (SAAMI .223 Rem Proof MAP is 78,500 psi so every 5.56mm round fired is a proof load, very dangerous). The 5.56 mm chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chambers, have a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 chambering, known as the "SAAMI chamber", is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber[2] or the Armalite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56 mm and .223 equally well.

 

Using commercial .223 cartridges in a 5.56-chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223-chambered gun due to the excessive leade. [3] Using 5.56 mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223-chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice.[4] Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56 mm, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14, but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56 mm ammunition.

 

 

http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/556-223-A...-Ch-t22582.html

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Excellent post. Even though my rifle says ".223 Remington" on the side, I wonder if they did not have the 5.56 x 45 in mind when they cut the chamber dimesions. One thing for sure. The .223 Saiga is built pretty stout. I have read that it is a 7.62 barrel and receiver and underbored for the .223 chambering. That should give it a thicker barrel than something like the Mini-14 Ruger.

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+1 on the information madmilo provided.

 

General "rule of thumb" (or simply stated... by me, the simpleton): It is okay and safe to shoot the civilian .223 Remington cartridge in a rifle chamber marked/designated for the 5.56 military cartridge, but not the other way around.

 

... or ...

 

A barrel chambered for 5.56 can safely shoot the .223 Rem, but the .223 Rem chamber cannot safely shoot the 5.56 military ammo.

 

:rolleyes:

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Excellent post. Even though my rifle says ".223 Remington" on the side, I wonder if they did not have the 5.56 x 45 in mind when they cut the chamber dimesions. One thing for sure. The .223 Saiga is built pretty stout. I have read that it is a 7.62 barrel and receiver and underbored for the .223 chambering. That should give it a thicker barrel than something like the Mini-14 Ruger.

 

Is there a practical way to measure our throat depth? Then we would know for sure..

 

Also has everyone fired a large number of 5.56 through there saiga .223? If so what were your observations?

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I am looking at getting a Saiga .223 and I have some questions with regards to .223 chambers vs 5.56 chambers.

 

First, is the Saiga a .223 chamber or a 5.56 chamber?

 

Second, can the Saiga .223 digest 5.56 ammo reliably and safely or does the rifle prefer .223?

 

 

Thanks in advance.

Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't had any sleep in two days), but I think the Saigas are chambered for 5.56, but marked "223" for political puposes.

 

Once again, please correct me if I'm wrong on this...

 

(FWIW, my Saiga digests 5.56 NATO w/o any problems whatsoever... )

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Excellent post. Even though my rifle says ".223 Remington" on the side, I wonder if they did not have the 5.56 x 45 in mind when they cut the chamber dimesions. One thing for sure. The .223 Saiga is built pretty stout. I have read that it is a 7.62 barrel and receiver and underbored for the .223 chambering. That should give it a thicker barrel than something like the Mini-14 Ruger.

 

Is there a practical way to measure our throat depth? Then we would know for sure..

 

Also has everyone fired a large number of 5.56 through there saiga .223? If so what were your observations?

 

I have fired several cases of 5.56 through my Saiga that I converted a few years ago without ant problems. The only trouble I have is when I use the soft lead tip rounds. I use Galil mags with a home made bullet guide and the angle from the mag to the chamber is too sharp and the lead tips get mashed to one side and sometimes get jammed. The FMJ's and hollow points feed fine. The Hornady polymer tip TAP rounds work best for me.

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My .223 Saiga has some head space concerns, but, mostly brought on by me for taking down the center part of the bolt before I read on here about the dimensional considerations. However, let me pass on this observation. My Forster NO-GO gauge closes into battery. My Forster FIELD (which, btw, is NOT 1.4700 like most FIELD specs, but 1.4696") will go into battery as well. My fired brass that I pulled the bullet and dumped out the poweder does NOT show headspace issues of primer backing out, AND when put into the chamber and the bolt closed without the bolt carrier is so snug that I cannot move the bolt any...none. My fired brass from Remington 55gr FMJ bullets also do not show any signs at all of head space issues. NO case side swelling no primer extensions, nothing. This link: http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/headspace.pdf shows head space on common .223 and 5.56mm calibers. Please note that the MILITARY FIELD is 1.4730" which amounts to an extra 0.0034" longer than the civilian FIELD.

 

So, I am not sure about the actual bore diameter of this chamber, or how tight they did it at Izhmash factory.

 

One thing I keep in mind is the heavy receiver and barrel of this rifle that it was made from a modified 7.62 x 39 and re-done to .223 Rem.

 

Now the true AK-101 is probably a true 5.56 x 45mm chamber. It's stictly military and I don't even know if they make one "demilled" for a parts kit for build it yourself folks.

 

ADDENDUM: I have to add that since I first posted I took apart the rifle and tried the NO-GO gauge. went into battery with the cam tab all the way to the right onto the receiver. Then, tried the FIELD. Would not go the same distance as the NO-GO, it came close to going into battery, but no cigars. FWIW.

Edited by Darth AkSarBen
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The saiga is actually made to shoot either 5.56 or .223.

 

As stated above, the 556 is primarily a higher pressure round. As such, you will see an occasional spitting of brass out of a gun like some of the .223 marked ARs out there (not going into names here), which can be dangerous on the firing line, actually. I know someone that took a piece of brass to the face from a shooter standing nearby firing 556 out of a factory .223 AR.

 

I have yet to hear of this happening with the saiga 223

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I've shot nothing but 5.56 out of mine, and it launches brass into low orbit.

 

I'm just trying to think of a way to make the ejection alittle less violent... I wanna reload my brass and I can't find most of it since it launches it into the next county.

 

Any ideas?

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I've shot nothing but 5.56 out of mine, and it launches brass into low orbit.

 

I'm just trying to think of a way to make the ejection alittle less violent... I wanna reload my brass and I can't find most of it since it launches it into the next county.

 

Any ideas?

Set up a giant fishing net. LOL

 

 

Thanks for all the info guys. I hope to be getting a .223 Saiga in the near future.

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I shoot out of a box. I have a wine box that I cut off all but one of the longer flaps, right side. Cut a U in the rear and a small V in the front. When I fire, the right flap is leaned inward toward the rifle. Provides a nice rest and use it for target practice, and scope alignment, and hand loads.

 

When I fire the brass bounces off the flap on the right side and back down inside the box. Once in a while, the brass bounces back at me, but it just lands right at my feet. I also put on an additional 1/2" of spring, same size as the recoil spring, to help dampen the violent action of the bolt carrier. This system, and the door guard on the dust cover keeps the brass quite reloadable. Any that lands out in the grass, from off hand shooting, I find with a metal detector. They are great at something like that.

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I am looking at getting a Saiga .223 and I have some questions with regards to .223 chambers vs 5.56 chambers.

 

First, is the Saiga a .223 chamber or a 5.56 chamber?

 

Second, can the Saiga .223 digest 5.56 ammo reliably and safely or does the rifle prefer .223?

 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Shellshoker1918, it is a 5.56 chamber. My Saiga has different head space tolernaces than the normal .223 Remington. Also you all might find this link of great interest: http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK101/characteristics.htm

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I've shot nothing but 5.56 out of mine, and it launches brass into low orbit.

 

I'm just trying to think of a way to make the ejection alittle less violent... I wanna reload my brass and I can't find most of it since it launches it into the next county.

 

Any ideas?

 

I don't bother - with the indentation around the primer and the horrible crease I get in the side of the case from ejection it;s totoally not worth reloading to me. As long as it isn;t causing jams I don't worry about it, but it is seriously funny.

 

When I say "low orbit" I mean low orbit - It's throwing my cases a good 25 yards at least, and it pitches at about a 60 degree angle forward and at about a 45 degree angle up... quite amazing.

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My recent rounds with a "door guard" in place on the dust cover.

223_Rem_8_25_09.jpg

 

 

Very small piece makes for no dings in the side of the brass. Another thing I did was to cut a bit of material out of the dust cover towad the rear as the opening comes down, and made it more of a slope. Then rounded all this out. Now my brass kicks out beside or behind me, not in front. Also, I put on an extra 1/2" spring on the front of the recoil spring, same size. Seems to lessen the amount of ding the ejector gives the brass.

Edited by Darth AkSarBen
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