21" Saiga .308 setup like PSL/Dragunov

[JJL0325 0]

Alright, so everyone knows neither rifles are your typical tack-driver. From what I understand the PSL was designed as a "squad designated marksmen" type rifle. Anyways, if you were to build up a S-.308 like a PSL, how would the accuracy compare? Would it be a waste of time/effort?

[paprotective 362]

I heard/read the EFFECTIVE range of the std 308 round is like 700-800 yards..

 

Now getting the group to be 'sniper-ish' (3-4" groups) would be awesome..

 

I'm no expert, but I am also entertaining the S-308 - 21" as my next buy for conversion.

 

Unless there is a LOUD argument on the 16 vs. 21 for '600 yard' WORK....

 

I got a 16 x39 so I'm good for 200-250 yards... IMHO.

[saigafreake 27]

unless u get a real bad vodka special a saiga 308 will out shoot most if not all the psl out there.

[JJL0325 0]

ahh geez... I am relatively new to the Saiga arena. I just converted an S-12, they have vodka special .308's, too???

 

 

unless u get a real bad vodka special a saiga 308 will out shoot most if not all the psl out there.

[elvis christ 451]

I heard/read the EFFECTIVE range of the std 308 round is like 700-800 yards..

 

Now getting the group to be 'sniper-ish' (3-4" groups) would be awesome..

 

I'm no expert, but I am also entertaining the S-308 - 21" as my next buy for conversion.

 

Unless there is a LOUD argument on the 16 vs. 21 for '600 yard' WORK....

 

I got a 16 x39 so I'm good for 200-250 yards... IMHO.

 

Man, a 3-4" group isn't anywhere near "sniper-ish." Good for a DMR, but snipers are supposed to be able to hit 1" groups or less at extremely long ranges, like 1000 meters. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

 

ahh geez... I am relatively new to the Saiga arena. I just converted an S-12, they have vodka special .308's, too???

 

 

unless u get a real bad vodka special a saiga 308 will out shoot most if not all the psl out there.

 

I haven't heard anything about .308 having problems (that would be fucked up, considering what they're asking for'em nowadays), I was under the impression that this was something that was pretty much isolated to the 12 gauge platform, due to the multiple holes that need to be present.

Edited September 4, 2009 by elvis christ

[superA 289]

It seems like guys are getting 1 1/2 inch groups with there .308's. That's got to be about perfect when you consider the AK was meant to be reliable first and then whatever you want to call it second. I have a question for the .308 guys. Any way of leaving it in it's stock config. and getting a good trigger? I love the looks of the wood .308's.

[elvis christ 451]

It seems like guys are getting 1 1/2 inch groups with there .308's. That's got to be about perfect when you consider the AK was meant to be reliable first and then whatever you want to call it second. I have a question for the .308 guys. Any way of leaving it in it's stock config. and getting a good trigger? I love the looks of the wood .308's.

 

I think that Dinzag sells a trigger that will work in neutered configuration. But I didn't like the way that I had to pull the trigger upwards on my factory .308, that was one of my main reasons for converting it. So that I could pull the trigger straight back.

[paprotective 362]

I heard/read the EFFECTIVE range of the std 308 round is like 700-800 yards..

 

Now getting the group to be 'sniper-ish' (3-4" groups) would be awesome..

 

I'm no expert, but I am also entertaining the S-308 - 21" as my next buy for conversion.

 

Unless there is a LOUD argument on the 16 vs. 21 for '600 yard' WORK....

 

I got a 16 x39 so I'm good for 200-250 yards... IMHO.

 

Man, a 3-4" group isn't anywhere near "sniper-ish." Good for a DMR, but snipers are supposed to be able to hit 1" groups or less at extremely long ranges, like 1000 meters. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

 

The question remains can the 308 Saiga get to the magical 1" at 800 yards plus consistently??

 

I think 3-4" at 800-1000 yards would be great with a SEMI auto for under $1000.

[dobravery 49]

A big advantage for the Saiga .308 over the PSL is the flexibility and variety of .308 ammo and reloading stuff (in the US). It seems that most of the guys who are getting great groupings out of their S-308 either reload or have tried several types of .308 ammo.

[saigafreake 27]

when i mentioned vodka special i wasnt refering to cycling issues i was talking bout a possible accuracy issue.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Any time you talk about accuaracy it has to be in terms of Minutes of Angle or MOA. A One MOA rifle/ammo would give 1" groups at 100 yards, 2" at 200 yards and so forth.

 

The accuracy of the Saiga is heavily dependent on the ammo, NATO designation ammo is better than 308Win due to cartridge length, hand-loads (good ones) are better than commercial or surplus and so on. Some are reporting sub 1MOA groups with hand-loads fitted to that particular rifle using only neck sizing, I get 2MOA with good commercial brass rounds, expect sub 4MOA for cheaper steel case.

 

In short dont expect great groups from Wolf but with good hand-loads the rifle could very well perform at a 1MOA sniper level yielding 5" groups at 500 yards depending on rifle, ammo, and shooter

[us_dragunov 11]

unless u get a real bad vodka special a saiga 308 will out shoot most if not all the psl out there.

 

I beg to differ there....

 

I have a couple of Saiga-308-1 rifles as well as a few PSLs and they seem to group about the same on average (1.5-2 MOA). Although one of my PSLs can shoot sub-MOA with the right ammo, shooter, and conditions.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

What the eastern block countries consider a DMR would not cut it in the west. It's difficult to say it would be a waste of money, but if you wind up with a 2-3 moa gun then you're talking an 18 in group at 600 yards. That's not exactly COM. Even at 2MOA you're talking a 12 in group. I'd want something in the 6 inch range if for no other reason that you want to be able to hit the COM at the effective limit of the round that you're launching.

 

The saiga 308 works well to get through light cover and the like, but a DMR is a bit of a stretch for either the PSL or saiga. Maybe something like a DPMS 308 would cut it for that sort of work. Tuned springfields work fine too. Most of us on beer budgets tend to get the saiga as a trunk gun, and a slightly warmed over bolt gun for our range stuff. Just my opinion, of course...

[paprotective 362]

Most of us on beer budgets tend to get the saiga as a trunk gun, and a slightly warmed over bolt gun for our range stuff. Just my opinion, of course...

-----------------------------------------

I got the MN for out to 350-400 (Pushing it).... I may get the Savage 10 model with 2 stage trigger...

[corbin 621]

Man, a 3-4" group isn't anywhere near "sniper-ish." Good for a DMR, but snipers are supposed to be able to hit 1" groups or less at extremely long ranges, like 1000 meters. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

As a former Ranger and Forward Observer/Scout, I can tell you that while 3-4" at 100 meters definitely isn't "sniper-ish" (cool term by the way), that same 3-4" group at 1000 meters is stellar. Up until about 10 years ago (when I was more involved in long range shooting), the World record was held (I think) by Skip Talbot and it was 3 rounds into a 5.25" circle at 1000 meters. Since then, people have tightened groups down a lot more, but none into a 1" hole at a kilometer, that I'm aware of.

 

You'll sometimes hear people talk about a rifle keeping 1MOA at a certain distance. Minute of Angle is a term that refers the angle of divergence from the aiming point by the bullet. 1 MOA translates into roughly 1 inch at 100 yards, 2 inches at 200 yards, 3 inches at 300, etc.

 

So a 1 MOA rifle (which is fairly accurate) should, if locked into a vice with no human variables, no wind, rain or other major issues, pattern 1 MOA at whatever range you shoot it (up to a point). At 1000 yards, you'd be looking at 10". 8" at 800 yards, and so on. Of course, when you add human and environmental variables, anything can happen.

 

I don't own a Saiga 308 yet, but I'm considering it. I've heard some folks claim 1.5 MOA, but most say it's around 3. As was mentioned before, the beauty of the AK platform is you can really fine tune and/or replace some parts to get a smoother or lighter trigger, if you want. That would probably tighten groups a bit.

 

I'd personally like to see a Scout type mount with a 2 or 3 powered pistol scope mounted up front on the gas tube. If you had a magnified red dot, even at closer ranges, the dot would super impose on the target with your other eye. They call it the "Binden aiming concept".

 

Anyway, this is just the view from my particular soapbox. Your view may differ.

 

 

Corbin

[paprotective 362]

I heard/read the EFFECTIVE range of the std 308 round is like 700-800 yards..

 

Now getting the group to be 'sniper-ish' (3-4" groups) would be awesome..

 

I'm no expert, but I am also entertaining the S-308 - 21" as my next buy for conversion.

 

Unless there is a LOUD argument on the 16 vs. 21 for '600 yard' WORK....

 

I got a 16 x39 so I'm good for 200-250 yards... IMHO.

 

Man, a 3-4" group isn't anywhere near "sniper-ish." Good for a DMR, but snipers are supposed to be able to hit 1" groups or less at extremely long ranges, like 1000 meters. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

 

The question remains can the 308 Saiga get to the magical 1" at 800 yards plus consistently??

 

I think 3-4" at 800-1000 yards would be great with a SEMI auto for under $1000.

 

Thanks Corbin for clarifying... Thats what I've been trying to say..

 

3-4" groups at 1000 yards is what I heard as being great..

 

Seems like people here think 1 inch groups at 800-1000 is a piece of cake with a 308 semi..

 

Still does not answer the OP questions...

[saiga1234 0]

Today at about 2000ft elevation with really cheap steel case Russian ammo (as in aim at your target , hit the other guy's target kind of cheap, silver bear, i think, I tossed the box long ago,

I was getting sub-3 near 2inch 3 shot groups at 100, provided I put effort into it.

 

Function tested surefire mags, all successfully fed.

 

No wind.

Dinzag trigger (unpolished)works well but the AK trigger is equal to a Super Soaker trigger in stock form.

This is not a comment on Brian's work (thx, Dinzag!) just a obs that the G2 needs tlc to make it decent.

16" barrel,

Simmons 3x9 on side mount,

Choate Drag stock,

cheap bipod on a solid wooden table.

 

If I wasn't careful they opened up to a bit under four.

But if I did my part it was better than I expected with a laughably ridiculous trigger.

All shots today would have hit vital cardio-respiratory bits at 100 (provided the guy was standing upright, perfectly still, hands by his side, with 'shoot here' drawn on his shirt).

 

This was the first eval,

not quite ar-10 but given the garbage I was shooting I was very, very pleased.

I now believe those who claim 1-1.5 inches with decent ammo.

If I'm trying 800 yard shots with the S308's trigger and anything less than a Nightforce, I'm either starving to death or zombies are real. The mirage alone would knock me out of the running.

 

I think an 18 barrel would be fine. 21 looks cool but I wonder how it would handle the heat of a couple of 20 round mags...you know, zombies.

 

Even with a hot barrel the 16 did not seem to suffer stringing or similar issues noted on my friends Chinese Drag. Note: he said his Drag was dead on 1st shot then started to walk it around pretty bad as the barrel heated.

 

I'm no marksman.

My S-308 out-shoots the idiot behind it.

I'm very happy.

 

You guys on the board have been a lot of help. Thank you.

Edited September 16, 2009 by saiga1234

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

As to the OP's question I would never buy a PSL at a higher price than a converted S308 as the PSL has much lower quality of manufacture. They are getting a really bad rep on that rifle, people reporting 4MOA which is worse than a Saiga 7.62x39. It just isn't a quality weapon with any consistently.

 

As for a S308 if I get 2MOA or less that is excellent for an intended MBR. That is the function the rifle performs, no other.

[ccmano 0]

Just had my 308-1 out for it's first run at 100 and 200 yards. Put the Saiga skeleton stock and a 3-12x42 scope on it. With surplus ammo she was doing 1.5" at 100yrds and 3" at 200yrds. Not bad at all! I suspect it would have done better if the trigger were better. I have to say the trigger is really crappy.

 

Has anyone come up a trigger mod or replacement that gives at least a passable trigger? I don't want to do the AK trigger reposition.

 

Any thoughts?

H

[paprotective 362]

Dinzag makes a non-FCG version of a G2.. Supposed to clear up some of the trigger issues..

 

Check into that on his site..

 

Hope that helps.

[ccmano 0]

Dinzag makes a non-FCG version of a G2.. Supposed to clear up some of the trigger issues..

 

Check into that on his site..

 

Hope that helps.

 

Thanks for the reply, went to the Dinzag website, but I don't see any triggers at all. Am I missing something?

H

Edited September 16, 2009 by ccmano

[paprotective 362]

http://www.dinzagarms.com/misc_parts/fcg.html

 

The one that says 'FACTORY' FCG $62

 

Its the TOP picture and includes the trigger block, disc, and hammer. Read the details in the 4th paragraph.

[ccmano 0]

http://www.dinzagarms.com/misc_parts/fcg.html

 

The one that says 'FACTORY' FCG $62

 

Its the TOP picture and includes the trigger block, disc, and hammer. Read the details in the 4th paragraph.

 

Got it! Thanks

H