Sar-2 or Saiga

[bigsal 757]

OK, Im a big fan of the saiga platform, and I really think the SGL-31 is a good buy, but would you guys rather have 2 Sar-2's and a crate of ammo or 1 SGL-31? I have been saving and saving for the 31, and I have around $900 right now, but I just had a guy offer me two Sar-2s and 2000+ rounds of 5.45 for $1250.... What should I do here?

[nalioth 405]

Neither.

 

I'd rather have a normal 5.45 Saiga (and convert it myself).

[bigsal 757]

Neither.

 

I'd rather have a normal 5.45 Saiga (and convert it myself).

 

 

A good point, I could really have 3 sportster saiga 5.45. But The russian parts in the SGL-31 really make it much more valuable....

[nalioth 405]

Neither.

 

I'd rather have a normal 5.45 Saiga (and convert it myself).

 

 

A good point, I could really have 3 sportster saiga 5.45. But The russian parts in the SGL-31 really make it much more valuable....

In this case "value" is subjective.

 

Out of your choices, go for the Saiga (it's at least made from all new parts, and not QC rejects)

 

 

 

 

Personally, I could give a f*** about "real Russian parts" - I just want "functionality", and can get the same level with US or Bulgarian made parts.

Edited September 10, 2009 by nalioth

[bigsal 757]

Neither.

 

I'd rather have a normal 5.45 Saiga (and convert it myself).

 

 

A good point, I could really have 3 sportster saiga 5.45. But The russian parts in the SGL-31 really make it much more valuable....

In this case "value" is subjective.

 

Out of your choices, go for the Saiga (it's at least made from all new parts, and not QC rejects)

 

 

 

 

Personally, I could give a f*** about "real Russian parts" - I just want "functionality", and can get the same level with US or Bulgarian made parts.

 

Oh, you seem to be unaware that the 31 doesn't use parts rejects. Also there were over 2000 of the sportsters imported and less than 200 of the 31's. That screams collector value to me. Yet the Sar-2 is not being imported right now and they get around $-500-600 on gunbroker, so Im really torn as to what to do..

[nalioth 405]

Oh, you seem to be unaware that the 31 doesn't use parts rejects. Also there were over 2000 of the sportsters imported and less than 200 of the 31's. That screams collector value to me. Yet the Sar-2 is not being imported right now and they get around $-500-600 on gunbroker, so Im really torn as to what to do..

I think you are not reading what I wrote.

 

 

Let me color code it:

Out of your choices, go for the Saiga (it's at least made from all new parts, and not QC rejects)

[bigsal 757]

Oh, you seem to be unaware that the 31 doesn't use parts rejects. Also there were over 2000 of the sportsters imported and less than 200 of the 31's. That screams collector value to me. Yet the Sar-2 is not being imported right now and they get around $-500-600 on gunbroker, so Im really torn as to what to do..

I think you are not reading what I wrote.

 

 

Let me color code it:

Out of your choices, go for the Saiga (it's at least made from all new parts, and not QC rejects)

 

 

Ahh gottcha, my reading-fu is off today. Yeah I think thats the best deal in the long run... Wish I could do both, but Im not a rich man.

[TX-Zen 287]

Of those choices I would get the SGL hands down. I have no interest in a SAR2, let alone 2 of them,... and I'm covered on the 5.45 ammo stash. Based on the SAR 2 prices you mentioned the deal he is offering doesn't seem to be better than about $100 less than market value, plus $1250 is about the same you'll pay for an SGL31 and 2160 of 5.45 anyway.

 

Flip side is you could sell one of the SAR's and get back around $500 but to me that's still not worth it.

 

 

The collector value of the SGL31 is probably going to be high in the long run, Arsenal's in general have really held their value and I would expect the SGL series to be the same.

 

 

Lastly, for me the authenticity of the SGL31 is exactly it's main selling point. I already have an SLR105 that has run like a top since I bought it and have done the sporter conversion route with a pair of 7.62's and an S12. While fun the first few times ultimately for me it came down to how close I could get it to be a reasonable facsimile of an AK103...and by the time you add all the parts to get you there you're not far off buying a new SGL20 or 31. Sure it's easy to convert to the PG configuration but the front end work is what defines the classic AK103 or AK74 look and to get that you have to drop a fair amount of $$$

 

I do believe in functionality over looks but all else being equal (reliability, accuracy, etc) who wants to own an ugly gun just because it works? Makes more sense to own an aesthetically pleasing rifle that works, assuming the prices aren't way different.

 

If functionality was the only important thing I would have stuck with my WASR and saved all the money I spent on the rest of my AK's and wouldn't have done the work on my 7.62 and S12 either. Same applies to a converted Saiga...if you need a practical no frills least expensive possible AK they are great choices. Likewise if you want to learn a lot more about the platform, converting is really good for you.

 

But if you want to capture some of that AK74 mystique, a plain jane PG converted Saiga isn't the same as an SGL31, even if they do the same job. On the other hand if money is the only concern a converted sporter makes more sense than spending twice as much on the SGL.

 

 

 

Just my .02 rupees

 

 

 

 

 

Z

Edited September 10, 2009 by TX-Zen

[nalioth 405]

I do believe in functionality over looks but all else being equal (reliability, accuracy, etc) who wants to own an ugly gun just because it works? Makes more sense to own an aesthetically pleasing rifle that works, assuming the prices aren't way different.

Pardon me here, but I think you're saying that "country of origin" makes the difference in "ugly" versus "aesthetically pleasing"

 

I'm totally at a loss as to how this can be, as the parts are (aside from proof marks/mold marks) exactly the same, visually

 

 

Basically, this is the sama as saying that a Japanese made Toyota is ugly when compared to the same model that is made in the USA..

 

 

 

IOW, we're getting a little bit ridiculous at this point . . .

 

Edited September 11, 2009 by nalioth

[redsoldier 7]

The SGL is built from better parts than the SAR, and also the SAR parts are often used and/or rejected.

 

On a side note, the SGL-31 has the correct AK-74 front trunion, whereas a SAIGA 5,45 has a wide cut trunion to acomodate for the built in bullet guide the 5,45 saiga mag has. You can test this theory out yourelf; note that the 5,45 saiga will take AK-74 mags without any modificaton - however, a 5,45 SAIGA mag will NOT fit into a standard AK-74 of any contry variety. The Dfferance? the cut for the trunion. Also, as you said, the true Russian parts and collector value are something to consider.

 

 

Want to see some pics of mine? I put OD green furniture, and had Red Jacket Firearms install a folding trunion and Triangle folder on it, and while they had it refinish it in gunkote. Add my Sound Suppressor ["silencer"] and my Kobra red dot sight [an actual Russian Kobra, not the copy], and you've got a hell of a neat package!

 

[Henn 0]

WOW- Redsoldier that one hell of a good looking rifle!

[bigsal 757]

Of those choices I would get the SGL hands down. I have no interest in a SAR2, let alone 2 of them,... and I'm covered on the 5.45 ammo stash. Based on the SAR 2 prices you mentioned the deal he is offering doesn't seem to be better than about $100 less than market value, plus $1250 is about the same you'll pay for an SGL31 and 2160 of 5.45 anyway.

 

Flip side is you could sell one of the SAR's and get back around $500 but to me that's still not worth it.

 

 

The collector value of the SGL31 is probably going to be high in the long run, Arsenal's in general have really held their value and I would expect the SGL series to be the same.

 

 

Lastly, for me the authenticity of the SGL31 is exactly it's main selling point. I already have an SLR105 that has run like a top since I bought it and have done the sporter conversion route with a pair of 7.62's and an S12. While fun the first few times ultimately for me it came down to how close I could get it to be a reasonable facsimile of an AK103...and by the time you add all the parts to get you there you're not far off buying a new SGL20 or 31. Sure it's easy to convert to the PG configuration but the front end work is what defines the classic AK103 or AK74 look and to get that you have to drop a fair amount of $$$

 

I do believe in functionality over looks but all else being equal (reliability, accuracy, etc) who wants to own an ugly gun just because it works? Makes more sense to own an aesthetically pleasing rifle that works, assuming the prices aren't way different.

 

If functionality was the only important thing I would have stuck with my WASR and saved all the money I spent on the rest of my AK's and wouldn't have done the work on my 7.62 and S12 either. Same applies to a converted Saiga...if you need a practical no frills least expensive possible AK they are great choices. Likewise if you want to learn a lot more about the platform, converting is really good for you.

 

But if you want to capture some of that AK74 mystique, a plain jane PG converted Saiga isn't the same as an SGL31, even if they do the same job. On the other hand if money is the only concern a converted sporter makes more sense than spending twice as much on the SGL.

 

 

 

Just my .02 rupees

 

 

 

 

 

Z

 

 

Agreed!

[bigsal 757]

The SGL is built from better parts than the SAR, and also the SAR parts are often used and/or rejected.

 

On a side note, the SGL-31 has the correct AK-74 front trunion, whereas a SAIGA 5,45 has a wide cut trunion to acomodate for the built in bullet guide the 5,45 saiga mag has. You can test this theory out yourelf; note that the 5,45 saiga will take AK-74 mags without any modificaton - however, a 5,45 SAIGA mag will NOT fit into a standard AK-74 of any contry variety. The Dfferance? the cut for the trunion. Also, as you said, the true Russian parts and collector value are something to consider.

 

 

Want to see some pics of mine? I put OD green furniture, and had Red Jacket Firearms install a folding trunion and Triangle folder on it, and while they had it refinish it in gunkote. Add my Sound Suppressor ["silencer"] and my Kobra red dot sight [an actual Russian Kobra, not the copy], and you've got a hell of a neat package!

 

 

 

Red:> How did you match the OD mag color, or are the Bulgarians making green 74 mags???

 

Also, awsome rifle!

[bigsal 757]

I do believe in functionality over looks but all else being equal (reliability, accuracy, etc) who wants to own an ugly gun just because it works? Makes more sense to own an aesthetically pleasing rifle that works, assuming the prices aren't way different.

Pardon me here, but I think you're saying that "country of origin" makes the difference in "ugly" versus "aesthetically pleasing"

 

I'm totally at a loss as to how this can be, as the parts are (aside from proof marks/mold marks) exactly the same, visually

 

 

Basically, this is the sama as saying that a Japanese made Toyota is ugly when compared to the same model that is made in the USA..

 

 

 

IOW, we're getting a little bit ridiculous at this point . . .

 

 

 

Fit and finish matter in terms of resale. Like it or not it *IS* a factor. I don't own a lot of nice things but when I splurge on rifles, I want the best as well.

[Reverendfranz 160]

No mention of the Tantal? they are definately neat little AK's and with the odd features, i would think they would be desirable to have in any otherwise complete collection. Otherwise, of course the saiga is the way to go, of either variety, higher quality, and fine rifles, especially if you do the "Fit and Finish is important" work that Red just showed. That is one nice looking rifle.

[nalioth 405]

Fit and finish matter in terms of resale. Like it or not it *IS* a factor. I don't own a lot of nice things but when I splurge on rifles, I want the best as well.

You're not reading what I'm writing.

 

I didn't say a single word about "fit and finish".

 

It has been posited in this thread that virtually identical parts are "ugly" or "aesthetically pleasing" just because of their country of origin and that, my friends, is insane.

[bigsal 757]

Fit and finish matter in terms of resale. Like it or not it *IS* a factor. I don't own a lot of nice things but when I splurge on rifles, I want the best as well.

You're not reading what I'm writing.

 

I didn't say a single word about "fit and finish".

 

It has been posited in this thread that virtually identical parts are "ugly" or "aesthetically pleasing" just because of their country of origin and that, my friends, is insane.

 

 

OK I ended up buying this on GB:

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=139185384

 

So I will have to forgo the saiga 5.45 and the pair of Sar's for the moment. I have never owned one of Krebs rifles before, so Im kinda stoked I found this.

 

Oh, ReverendFranz, I never considered the polish tantal. Even good units tend to suck. In 5.45 I only considered Russian and Romanian. Anyway, Ill post pics in the "Other AK Rifles" section when this baby arrives. Thanks all!

[nalioth 405]

OK I ended up buying this on GB:

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=139185384

 

So I will have to forgo the saiga 5.45 and the pair of Sar's for the moment. I have never owned one of Krebs rifles before, so Im kinda stoked I found this.

Oh, ReverendFranz, I never considered the polish tantal. Even good units tend to suck. In 5.45 I only considered Russian and Romanian. Anyway, Ill post pics in the "Other AK Rifles" section when this baby arrives. Thanks all!

I hope you're not TOO stoked.

 

Description for Item # 139185384

 

Up for sale is a sar-2 rifle. Has a custom front sight post from Krebs. The rifle also has a OD green stock (Nato length). I bought this rifle new about six years ago and I have put about 6000 rounds down range with it. Its in very good condition. Magazine is not included.

 

You've still not bought a Krebs rifle.

 

You've bought a Sar-2 with a Krebs gas block.

Edited September 11, 2009 by nalioth

[JK-47 33]

I think I would have spent the whole $ ammount on 5.45 ammo cans, then buy the Saiga 5.45 when funds recover.

[redsoldier 7]

 

Red:> How did you match the OD mag color, or are the Bulgarians making green 74 mags???

 

Also, awsome rifle!

 

K-VAR had OD green AK-74 mags a long time ago when they first introduced OD green furniture. They are almost impossible to find now though. At any rate, I bought some way back then. I really like the look.

[TX-Zen 287]

I think you're saying that "country of origin" makes the difference in "ugly" versus "aesthetically pleasing"

 

You thought wrong.

 

The rest of your comments are based on your misconception, so I'll let them go.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Z

[bigsal 757]

 

Red:> How did you match the OD mag color, or are the Bulgarians making green 74 mags???

 

Also, awsome rifle!

 

K-VAR had OD green AK-74 mags a long time ago when they first introduced OD green furniture. They are almost impossible to find now though. At any rate, I bought some way back then. I really like the look.

 

 

Red:> Bingo, Im looking for those as well. They are never on gunbroker in that color. But buying the modified Sar was kind of a spur of the moment thing, it looks great, I'll probably regret not picking up the 31 in a few weeks.

 

Nalioth:> the guy did some great work on it, and the finish is good. I just couldn't pass it up.

 

TX:> The stuff coming out of the Izzy factory is a grade above the rest, I agree, both in terms of fit, finish and function.

 

JK-47:> I had saved about $900, and I intend to buy ammo as well. As for a sportster 5.45, Im not really that interested as they are not in the same catagory of awsomeness as the 31.

Edited September 13, 2009 by bigsal

[mikebaker1129 19]

There is a Green AK74 mag forsale on AR15.com in the old EE under AK mags for $50 if anyone is interested ?

I am not connected with the seller, just thought that I would pass it along ...

[JK-47 33]

Sorry, meant to say "buy the saiga 5.45 and convert it. Once you've done one conversion, I can't see how you'd ever be happy with a plain Saiga sporter again.

[bigsal 757]

Sorry, meant to say "buy the saiga 5.45 and convert it. Once you've done one conversion, I can't see how you'd ever be happy with a plain Saiga sporter again.

 

 

JK:> Its the number of authentic Russian parts that make the SGL31 more appealing over a converted RAA unit. The 31's will likely have a very high collector value in the near future when the original batch gets bought up. I am not saying a 5.45 converted unit wouldn't be fun, but I like to maximize my returns if you catch my drift.

 

Mike1129:> I just snaged that one actually. Thanks for the heads up. So now I am $825 for my rifle, $50 for my spiffy green magazine to match the furniture leaving me a grand total of about $50 for ammunition... I'm gonna need a second job I think =)

[badkharma2five 2]

As an old school AK gunsmith, I question the proposition that non-Russian AK parts are somehow inferior to Russian or Bulgy or whatever made parts. Russians make the same parts as everyone else, the cheapest thing they can produce that works. I think it's a testament to folks' lack of understanding of their weapons, to have someone else 'do most of my conversion for me'....If you don't have the tools,experience, whatever, FINE. But I would walk a fine line in PSUEDO insulting my conversion, for example..because it has too many non-Russian parts. I'll blow you and your piece out today and tomorrow....because I know my rifle inside and out and don't give a F@!# about getting green mags/furniture or it's resale value. You looking for an investment?...get some old ass coins or some other museum ready piece of crap. While you're at it buy a dictionary, and convert your ass to some proper spelling!! Don't bother to gripe...I don't live here...

Edited September 15, 2009 by badkharma2five

[JK-47 33]

It's true that an all Russian AK will in all probably be worth more to collectors and laymen alike in the future. I am just happy with an equaly functional rifle since I do not have any intention to sell it; but I can fully understand the desire to buy the more desireable/ collectible rifle.

[Twinsen 86]

I'd get the SGL, but then again I'd get the .410 one first anyway.

[bigsal 757]

As an old school AK gunsmith, I question the proposition that non-Russian AK parts are somehow inferior to Russian or Bulgy or whatever made parts. Russians make the same parts as everyone else, the cheapest thing they can produce that works. I think it's a testament to folks' lack of understanding of their weapons, to have someone else 'do most of my conversion for me'....If you don't have the tools,experience, whatever, FINE. But I would walk a fine line in PSUEDO insulting my conversion, for example..because it has too many non-Russian parts. I'll blow you and your piece out today and tomorrow....because I know my rifle inside and out and don't give a F@!# about getting green mags/furniture or it's resale value. You looking for an investment?...get some old ass coins or some other museum ready piece of crap. While you're at it buy a dictionary, and convert your ass to some proper spelling!! Don't bother to gripe...I don't live here...

 

The Amount of Russian parts goes a long way in my decisions. I invite you to check over my posts, you'll notice a wide variety of AK projects Ive undertaken, from simple saiga conversions, to parts kit builds, to rewelds. If you live near central Idaho I'd be happy to take up your challange and see if you can "blow me out of the water"... As for my spelling, I invite you to lick my balls. Also I hate you.

Edited September 15, 2009 by bigsal

[paprotective 362]

Nice buy.. I agree with your choices.. Sweet OD too.