havok 21 Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) New Remigton HD 12g shotshells. Experts agree a shotgun is the best firearm for home defense. For 2009, Remington announces a new ammunition product designed to enhance the effectiveness of your shotgun in a home defense scenario – Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense. Don't Trust Your Family's Safety to Anything Else Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense shotgun ammunition features the same pellet material as the popular Wingmaster HD™ tungsten-bronze hunting ammunition and is offered in two loadings. Consumers can choose from a load of BB’s for the highest terminal energy or a duplex mixture of #2 and #4 pellets for excellent pattern density and outstanding stopping power with a reduced chance of over-penetration. Both loads are 12 gauge, 2 ¾-inch with 1 1/4 ounces of shot at 1250 feet per second. At the most commonly encountered home defense distances, Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense produces very tight patterns for one-shot confidence. HD Ultimate Home Defense ammunition is the perfect compliment to Remington’s recently expanded line of tactical shotguns. Recent additions to the line include the Model 870 Express® Tactical with XS® Ghost Ring Sights and the Model 870 Express Tactical with Gray Powder Coat Finish. Both shotguns are 12 gauge and feature 3-inch chambered 18 ½-inch barrels which are threaded for the included Tactical Extended Rem™ Choke. Average weight for both models is 7 ½-pounds, overall length is 38 ½-inches and both guns are equipped with a black synthetic stock and fore-end. Could not get a link to work so I copyed and pasted text from remingtons site. What do you think about the shot size? Cost around $3 a round. Edited September 17, 2009 by havok Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobRez 1,895 Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 I think that if there were an armed intruder wearing heavy clothes and say, a leather jacket, he would still have a shot at you, with the shot size advertised.Even the biggest bird shot is still for birds. If you make a good shot, I don't think that buckshot would too much energy after penetrating "MEAT", the pellets don't have as much mass as a heavy bullet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zenmetsu 17 Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 Never understood why they don't make BBs with holes drilled in such a way so as to have them expand/fragment upon impact and thus reducing the amount of over-penetration. :/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sudaevpps43 31 Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 New Remigton HD 12g shotshells. What do you think about the shot size? Cost around $3 a round. I'll pass. Remington can call it "Ultimate Home Defense" or whatever the hell else they want but its still birdshot, and if birdshot was a reliably effective self-defense loading for a shotgun then buckshot would never have been invented. Though I admit I was always curious as to how a hollow point thin walled hollow brass slug filled with birdshot (like a giant version of a glaser safety slug handgun bullet) would perform as a 'won't go through the wall if you miss but still put the bad guy down if you hit'-type self-defense round. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raoul_Duke 113 Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 What do you think . . . Cost around $3 a round. I think that if it's packaged and marketed right it will sell great to people who don't know any better. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigwookiee 1 Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 I like the Centurion in the photo below. At first I had a feed problem which I have now solved and at $1 round much better buy. It consistent of one large slug and 6 00 buck shot flying at 1300 fps. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zenmetsu 17 Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) What are they going to come up with next? HI (Home Invasion) ammo packs? First round is a door breacher. Second round fires a low-velocity sausage out the barrel and onto the floor to pacify the dogs. Third, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth rounds are bean-bag non-lethal for dealing with the home-owner and other occupants. Wait, I better not give the ammo people any ideas. Edited September 17, 2009 by zenmetsu Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 I think it sounds like a whole lotta marketing for a shell that's nothing special. ~$3 a round? Gimme a fucking break. I don't particularly like Remington ammo, either. I'll stick with Federal buck, thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulry 50 Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 If your worried about double buck shot go with triple or 4 buck. Do NOT use any bird shot. And it's a hell of a lot cheaper! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tover26 18 Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 Over Penetration. I'm sure it applies sometimes... like when the intruder made it up to the bedroom and you're shooting at the bad guy with your kid's door in the background. When else? When I first started thinking about this... I figured that the bad guy must've cleared his path to where I'm shooting at him. Over-penetration seems like it would apply most in a hostage type situation or when you're spatially unaware of the layout of your own home. I kind of like the idea of shooting bad guys through my floor if I need to. With the way our house is set up, I'm either overpenetrating and hitting other bad guys or hitting stuff that won't matter in a gun fight - like my car. 00 and 000 buck is plenty. Out of curiousity, has anyone ever studied the anti-materiel properties of high velocity slugs? I always figured that a 12 gauge slug anywhere near a car engine would make said engine not work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobRez 1,895 Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 I think that "theboxotruth.com" did a little piece on "Shotgun vs. Buick" if you want to see some real results. Although I really don't know how a lead slug would hold up against the engine block itself,I am reasonably sure that any engine components would be utterly destroyed. A slug will definitely go through both sides of a car if you shoot through the doors. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
havok 21 Posted September 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 (edited) Slug's for taking out auto motor's. http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/products_id/3089 This is 12 Gauge Brenneke Special Forces Short Magnum 2 3/4" 1 1/4oz. Rifled Slug Ammo. Threats come in many forms these days, sometimes driving a vehicle, sometimes hiding behind a wall. Urban and Close Quarter situations require a unique projectile, one of unequalled penetration and stopping power at medium ranges. That’s exactly what the Brenneke Special Forces Short Magnum offers. In independent testing, the Special Forces Short Magnum penetrated a full 34.9"of FBI specified ballistic gelatin. The nearest competitor could manage only 26" and others as little as 11". Quite simply, it’s the most powerful 2 3/4" load on the marke and will function equally well in smoothbore and rifled shotguns. The SpecialForces Short Magnum’s massive frontal area, exceptionally hard alloys and distinctive Brenneke weight forward design will penetrate many vehicle engines, Steel and wood doors and even some concrete and brick walls. Putting an end to the threat right here and right now. Its special red coating reduces barrel fouling and cleaning. Giving the good guys yet another break. This round and used by many Law Enforcement Agencies as their car killer round. This round fired into the engine compartment of an automobile will do enough damage to stop the automobile. Edited September 18, 2009 by havok Quote Link to post Share on other sites
longhorn 81 Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 I use Winchester ammo in #4 buck (41 pellet) 3" in the home. Remington ammo isn't clean shooting. That Rem. HD crap sounds like it might get you killed instead of the intruder. Generally I test penetration ect myself starting with what the pros use (LEO/MILITARY). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bernerz 11 Posted September 19, 2009 Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 I have seen firsthand what birdshot can do. Those little bbs can really tear up a body, shred major arteries and vessels, and generally cause a lot of damage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sudaevpps43 31 Posted September 19, 2009 Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 (edited) I have seen firsthand what birdshot can do. Those little bbs can really tear up a body, shred major arteries and vessels, and generally cause a lot of damage. No one is saying birdshot isn't capable of stopping an attacker, its a question of consistency in stopping an attacker. Stopping an attacker quickly and reliably requires more than just a wide wound, it also requires a fairly deep wound, and birdshot just doesn't have the penetration to make it as reliable a manstopper as buckshot. Now as far as I'm concerned every man is free to choose whatever firearm/ammo combination he wants to defend his home with, but for me at least if I am using a shotgun for home defense I will be using buckshot, not birdshot. If I ever move to a different place where I think penetrating through walls would be more of an issue, then I would probably go with a handgun chambered in a proven cartridge (9mm, .38, .40 auto, .45, .357, etc.), and loaded with glaser safety slugs or something equivalent. This is just my own humble opinion of course, and everyone is free to make their own choice. Edited September 19, 2009 by Frogfoot Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bernerz 11 Posted September 19, 2009 Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 I agree with the pistol assessment. Just a bit more maneuverable and concealable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HateTheSnow 29 Posted September 19, 2009 Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 Personally, I keep Federal Black Cloud on hand for "indoor" use. Wicked stuff with incredibly tight patterns at short range, and considerably cheaper than the Remington HD. And yes, Black Cloud doesn't come in buckshot, BBB is currently the largest shot size, but weapon AND ammo selection are both key elements for achieving the desired effect in a particular application. In confined areas where you have the potential for loved ones behind drywall partitions, over-penetration is an issue to be concered about. I'd challenge anyone to pick up a box and test it out at distances you would typically expect to engage an intruder at inside your home. Beyond that, the points stated for buckshot and slug rounds for target at distance or behind significant cover are well taken. These rounds do have their uses, and that's the beauty of detachable magazines. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HateTheSnow 29 Posted September 19, 2009 Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 I have seen firsthand what birdshot can do. Those little bbs can really tear up a body, shred major arteries and vessels, and generally cause a lot of damage. No one is saying birdshot isn't capable of stopping an attacker, its a question of consistency in stopping an attacker. Stopping an attacker quickly and reliably requires more than just a wide wound, it also requires a fairly deep wound, and birdshot just doesn't have the penetration to make it as reliable a manstopper as buckshot. Now as far as I'm concerned every man is free to choose whatever firearm/ammo combination he wants to defend his home with, but for me at least if I am using a shotgun for home defense I will be using buckshot, not birdshot. If I ever move to a different place where I think penetrating through walls would be more of an issue, then I would probably go with a handgun chambered in a proven cartridge (9mm, .38, .40 auto, .45, .357, etc.), and loaded with glaser safety slugs or something equivalent. This is just my own humble opinion of course, and everyone is free to make their own choice. Try to make it down for the Myakka shoot in November. I'd love to have the chance for you to leave with a different opinion, but who knows, maybe you'll change my mind on things. Leaving all other arguments aside, applying good tactics and having a force multiplier on your side, regardless of type, can make all the difference. But, one thing I think we can all agree on is it doesn't get much worse in close quarters engagements than being on the business end of a scattergun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zenmetsu 17 Posted September 19, 2009 Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 birdshot is pretty nasty even up close. You have to remember that there is not much spread at these ranges, so you still have essentially a slug hitting the attacker. The first few BBs to hit the target will compress the clothing,etc up against the attacker's body and the following rounds will work to penetrate. There are plenty of test videos out there showing what birdshot will do. But 00 Buck acts like, well, 00 Buck at all ranges. Best to stick to what is known to work... However, when it comes down to it, if you happen to have birdshot in your gun, don't waste time switching to buckshot, just fire the birdshot and pray. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HateTheSnow 29 Posted September 19, 2009 Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 birdshot is pretty nasty even up close. You have to remember that there is not much spread at these ranges, so you still have essentially a slug hitting the attacker. The first few BBs to hit the target will compress the clothing,etc up against the attacker's body and the following rounds will work to penetrate. There are plenty of test videos out there showing what birdshot will do. But 00 Buck acts like, well, 00 Buck at all ranges. Best to stick to what is known to work... However, when it comes down to it, if you happen to have birdshot in your gun, don't waste time switching to buckshot, just fire the birdshot and pray. That's the beauty of smaller shot inside a home. It will virtually decimate the first target it hits at close range, but after going through two sheets of drywall (or the typical home partition), it looses most of its' energy and becomes embedded in the opposite wall. Buckshot, slugs, and the typical handguns most have for home defense will penetrate 4-5 rooms on a missed shot. Granted, it's a matter of personal preference, but it does go back to one of the golden rules of knowing "what your target is and what lies beyond it." I'll bring a box of Black Cloud out the Myakka shoot and let you have a go with a few rounds on some dynamic targets inside of 20 yds. It doesn't pattern like normal shot out of a smooth bore, and the terminal results are much more pronounced. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
havok 21 Posted September 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 (edited) Here is Hevi-shot maximum defense shotshells, Seem alot better then the remington. 35 .20 pellets http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJTtkEEaOiU Edited September 20, 2009 by havok Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sudaevpps43 31 Posted September 20, 2009 Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 (edited) Try to make it down for the Myakka shoot in November. I'd love to have the chance for you to leave with a different opinion, but who knows, maybe you'll change my mind on things. Leaving all other arguments aside, applying good tactics and having a force multiplier on your side, regardless of type, can make all the difference. But, one thing I think we can all agree on is it doesn't get much worse in close quarters engagements than being on the business end of a scattergun. I don't think we are actually that far apart on this matter. I probably should have said earlier what size of buckshot I prefer. It seems these days when people hear buckshot they automatically think 00 or even 000 buck. I am of the 'more pellets not bigger pellets' school of thought though, and I prefer smaller buckshot, specifically #4 buck, which is .24 caliber and so not that far from Black Cloud (.19 caliber BBB) or the Hevi-Shot (T size .20 caliber pellet) Havok mentioned. Edited September 20, 2009 by Frogfoot 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zenmetsu 17 Posted September 20, 2009 Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 I currently have 4 rounds of #4 underneath a hollow-point slug. The #4 on top gets deformed and I get worried that it won't feed when i need it. No idea how the penetration is on the HP slugs though... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
454496 71 Posted September 20, 2009 Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 What if the home invader has wall penetrating ammo and misses? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) ...No idea how the penetration is on the HP slugs though... Well, considering I've fired slugs at old, 30's era junked trucks, (built like tanks), and had em blast through not one but both doors and continue on their way... yeah, they're gonna tear through your standard residential interior wall like tissue paper. Edited September 21, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zenmetsu 17 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 hollow point slugs... not normal ones. I know what normal slugs will do to cars/walls/people... ok, not people... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) hollow point slugs... not normal ones. I know what normal slugs will do to cars/walls/people... ok, not people... Yeah, I was talking about hollow point slugs. I still use em myself for my S-12 HD mag: alternating 2 3/4" slugs and buck. I don't have any "kids down the hall" etc to worry about. Also, although slugs have a lot of power, they aren't unstoppable. Once they hit something truly solid, (like various components of decently built structures), they stop/fragment and are no longer a threat. Worrying about the slug piercing several interior walls, the exterior building wall, the exterior wall of a nearby structure and killing those inside is foolish. Ain't gonna happen, (unless you live in a village of huts, like BO's brother George ). Edited September 21, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aresv 49 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Using slugs for home defense is absurd unless you live alone in the middle of the country... in which case you might as well have a rifle instead. Using bird shot for home defense is also ridiculous. So, that leaves buckshot. Anything between #4 and 000. My preferred load is Federal LE127, 9 pellets of 00 in a flitecontrol wad at 1325 feet per second. It would be nice if they offered a similar #1 buck load, but 00 is fine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ARCANGEL 1 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Meh... only Federal "00" buck with flite control wad for me. You would not believe how tight the pattern is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Using slugs for home defense is absurd unless you live alone in the middle of the country... in which case you might as well have a rifle instead. Using bird shot for home defense is also ridiculous... You might wanna try prefacing your opinions with "I think", or throw a "imo" in there somewhere. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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