RoughRider666 47 Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 Is everyone absolutely SET on having a Saiga 12 for Home Defense / SHTF? everytime i hear the term "Saiga Shotgun" people are ALWAYS talking about the 12 gauge. I know its what the military / LE use, but 20 gauge is just as common these days, and you can get 00 Buck and 3" mag for both, and not mention, in a SHTF scenario, if your carrying a lot of ammo, 20ga is going to be somewhat lighter to carry around. im going to repost this on the Saiga 12 forum as well, so i can get their opinions on this issue as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 Is everyone absolutely SET on having a Saiga 12 for Home Defense / SHTF? everytime i hear the term "Saiga Shotgun" people are ALWAYS talking about the 12 gauge. I know its what the military / LE use, but 20 gauge is just as common these days, and you can get 00 Buck and 3" mag for both, and not mention, in a SHTF scenario, if your carrying a lot of ammo, 20ga is going to be somewhat lighter to carry around. im going to repost this on the Saiga 12 forum as well, so i can get their opinions on this issue as well. Don't be a filthy spammer. Since this is of general interest (both 12ga and 20ga), you should have posted once in General Discussion. That way, you don't have your responses split over two threads, and folks can keep up. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 Is everyone absolutely SET on having a Saiga 12 for Home Defense / SHTF? everytime i hear the term "Saiga Shotgun" people are ALWAYS talking about the 12 gauge. I know its what the military / LE use, but 20 gauge is just as common these days, and you can get 00 Buck and 3" mag for both, and not mention, in a SHTF scenario, if your carrying a lot of ammo, 20ga is going to be somewhat lighter to carry around. im going to repost this on the Saiga 12 forum as well, so i can get their opinions on this issue as well. Don't be a filthy spammer. Since this is of general interest (both 12ga and 20ga), you should have posted once in General Discussion. That way, you don't have your responses split over two threads, and folks can keep up. Agreed! Most people read the whole board anyway! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 20 gauge is just as common these days, and you can get 00 Buck and 3" mag for both, and not mention, in a SHTF scenario, if your carrying a lot of ammo, 20ga is going to be somewhat lighter to carry around. Ok,well, its all settled then. 20 gauge is the perfect one for you. Any further debate will be pointless and lead nowhere but please feel free to go there one more time if you insist. Good luck with that and have a nice day. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stiletto raggio 20 Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 I won't be as dismissive as the others, but while you have a point about lighter ammo, I can't think of two many situations when SHTF that I will be carrying all my ammo on my person. The overall availability of "fighting rounds" for teh 12 gauge is much better than that of the 20, as are magazines of all capacities. Also, S-12 mags can handle either 2.75" or 3" shells (with the exception of the MD 20 drums). With a good gas plug, the recoil argument is null. In general, the S-12 can do anything the S-20 can do, and the S-20 is lacking in some very practical ways. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aresv 49 Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 20 gauge is plenty powerful if that's your choice. It's lighter and has less recoil. 12 gauge, on the other hand, has much cheaper ammo, greater variety of ammo, and is more certain to stop Deebo with a single shot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stiletto raggio 20 Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 If one of the foreign makers of shells would start producing reasonably priced 20 gauge buckshot, I would say the S-20 would have a lot more going for it. If a domestic manufacturer would make a ten round stick mag, it would be even better. Until those two things happen, I don't see it as viable. If you want light ammo and low recoil, look into the .410. Yeah, it is "weak" compared to a 12 gauge, but the 5-pellet OOO and OOOO loads are pretty damn impressive. 10-15 round mags are readily available, and ammo weighs half as much as either 12 or 20 gauge. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RoughRider666 47 Posted September 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 If one of the foreign makers of shells would start producing reasonably priced 20 gauge buckshot, I would say the S-20 would have a lot more going for it. If a domestic manufacturer would make a ten round stick mag, it would be even better. Until those two things happen, I don't see it as viable. If you want light ammo and low recoil, look into the .410. Yeah, it is "weak" compared to a 12 gauge, but the 5-pellet OOO and OOOO loads are pretty damn impressive. 10-15 round mags are readily available, and ammo weighs half as much as either 12 or 20 gauge. yeah, i thought about the .410 as well for that very reason, but ammo for the 410 isnt as abundant as it used to be, is it? I dont see too much of it out here in my neck of the woods anymore. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stiletto raggio 20 Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 I would not advocate the .410 for any but three roles: pest control, "survival" and home defense. For home defense, I advocate it on grounds of young adults, the elderly and small females all being able to wield it and handle the recoil. Ammo of all types is harder to find and more expensive than 12 gauge and only 20 gauge buckshot is more expensive. .410 slugs are a ballistic joke, and .410 birdshot is not particularly good for wingshooting (though it can be done by the highly skilled). I would recommend the Saiga .410 as an HD gun over a .410 pump because .410 pumps usually hold even fewer shells than a 20 or 12 gauge HD gun. The .410 Saiga with a 15 round mag can be fired rapidly and effectively and I can honestly say it has the least recoil of any shotgun I've ever shot. Bottom line: If power and versatility are premiums, go with a 12. If a lighter weapon, lighter ammo and lighter recoil matter more, go with a .410. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 I like the 20 ga round. I like the 12 better, but there's nothing wrong with the 20. My main concern with using a 20 ga Saiga, which I don't own yet, is that they don't make any mags higher than 5 rounds. Hopefully they will eventually, but they don't now. Not that I know of anyway. Availability of ammo is pretty good. Still not as good as the 12, I suspect. But it's not bad. In a hypothetical SHTF scenario, your source for ammo might be more limited though. Since Police & Military don't use 20 ga (to my knowledge), any ammo you might get from them (not that they're going to give it away) would be 12 ga. I'm talking more about finding dead individuals or evacuated areas that might have ammo. Either that or like many of us, you might have a family member on the Force and they might give you some ammo, if need be. Just the view from my soapbox. Your view may differ. Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yakdung 2,926 Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 During the Katrina mess shotgun shells evaporated extremely fast. Folks in southern Louisiana had to send runners into northern Louisiana seeking ammo. I would suggest to you having at least one 12 gauge shotgun you would be willing to lose or allowed to be confiscated by local authorities in your arsenal would be a smart thing to do. Whatever you finally decide to do in the end make certain you have more than ample ammo supply. Surplus ammo can be used as barter and will help you make friends fast in a very bad situation. Also remember bigger bears require a bigger hole . Be safe and happy shooting! Yakdung Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mgconnor13 206 Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 I like 12 gauge because it's common, versitile, fairly cheep and very powerfull. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Look, this is the newest question that must be answered over and over. If a 20 is all you have great, use it. Hey it is better then a .410! But no amount of reasoning or mental multiplication will make it as good, much less superior to a 12 for this purpose. Get over it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RoughRider666 47 Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) Look, this is the newest question that must be answered over and over. If a 20 is all you have great, use it. Hey it is better then a .410! But no amount of reasoning or mental multiplication will make it as good, much less superior to a 12 for this purpose. Get over it. I get the point Az...no need to be a dick! i KNOW the 12 is superior to the 20, I was referring to the GUN itself not the round! all i was trying to accomplish here was getting a few opinions from other people around, to see if an S-20 is even worth buying! Now knowing that you cant get mags for the S-20 over 5 rounds, im not going to get one! So, how about you get over yourself! there, im done...Rant Done Edited October 5, 2009 by RoughRider666 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Now knowing that you cant get mags for the S-20 over 5 rounds,<snip> Since when? Russian 8 and 10 rounders are available from sources overseas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RoughRider666 47 Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Now knowing that you cant get mags for the S-20 over 5 rounds,<snip> Since when? Russian 8 and 10 rounders are available from sources overseas. I dont know man, thats what Corbin said. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Modiano 5 Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 in my HD 12g pump i load reduced recoil 00buck. 8 pellets flying at 1200fps, 1 pellet short and 200fps slower than regular 00buck loads. in my s-20 i load #3buck 20pellets flying at 1200fps. if i owned an S-12, i'm sure i couldn't reliably cycle reduced recoil loads. personally, i would choose #1buck in 12g ballistically, 20g is plenty enough to get the job done. if 20g 2 3/4" #3buck won't cut it, then you need to move up to a .223 or 7.62 if you're thinking you'll need to penetrate body armor...but we're talking home defense scenarios here, not SWAT raids...i haven't heard of gung-ho home invaders actually using vests, but i could be wrong the standard 12g loading is OObuck 9pellets. effective. some "experts" say that #1buck 16pellets will actually leave a more devastating wound cavity due to more projectiles in the same hit area. the same experts generally agree that #4buck is the smallest pellet size you would want to depend on. the standard available home defense 20g loading is 2 3/4" #3buck 20pellets. that sounds plenty effective to me and 20g has the added bonus of less recoil and faster/more accurate follow up shots. i'm still waiting to see some 20g 2 3/4" #2buck. so far i've only found 3". seen some novelty 20g 00buck, but no thanks as for ammo deals/hi-cap mag availability, 12g wins hands down. the supply had dried up when i was shopping for an s-12. auction sites were selling for $800. i lucked out and found a retailer with an s-20 for $330 + shipping. jumped on it with no regrets, even when s-12's came back down to $500-550 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Look, this is the newest question that must be answered over and over. If a 20 is all you have great, use it. Hey it is better then a .410! But no amount of reasoning or mental multiplication will make it as good, much less superior to a 12 for this purpose. Get over it. I get the point Az...no need to be a dick! i KNOW the 12 is superior to the 20, I was referring to the GUN itself not the round! all i was trying to accomplish here was getting a few opinions from other people around, to see if an S-20 is even worth buying! Now knowing that you cant get mags for the S-20 over 5 rounds, im not going to get one! So, how about you get over yourself! there, im done...Rant Done You were done before you started. You asked a question that you now claim that you knew the answer to all along. The Title says nothing about: 1. Are larger mags available for the S20? 2. Is the S20 a good value for the money? 3. Hey, I would like to post something, but can't think of anything good! What it does say is, if things get really bad, which is better, the S12 or the S20? I answered that question, no matter what you now meant to ask. No one was being a dick, however if the completely obvious answer now makes you feel stupid.... Well, let me know if I need to break it down for you even more. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RoughRider666 47 Posted October 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) Look, this is the newest question that must be answered over and over. If a 20 is all you have great, use it. Hey it is better then a .410! But no amount of reasoning or mental multiplication will make it as good, much less superior to a 12 for this purpose. Get over it. I get the point Az...no need to be a dick! i KNOW the 12 is superior to the 20, I was referring to the GUN itself not the round! all i was trying to accomplish here was getting a few opinions from other people around, to see if an S-20 is even worth buying! Now knowing that you cant get mags for the S-20 over 5 rounds, im not going to get one! So, how about you get over yourself! there, im done...Rant Done You were done before you started. You asked a question that you now claim that you knew the answer to all along. The Title says nothing about: 1. Are larger mags available for the S20? 2. Is the S20 a good value for the money? 3. Hey, I would like to post something, but can't think of anything good! What it does say is, if things get really bad, which is better, the S12 or the S20? I answered that question, no matter what you now meant to ask. No one was being a dick, however if the completely obvious answer now makes you feel stupid.... Well, let me know if I need to break it down for you even more. Anyway, can we just get passed this and move on with life? this subject is now invalid... Edited October 6, 2009 by RoughRider666 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Come on! Give me a flippin break... Do you understand what SHTF means??? It means when the Shit Hits The Fan.. Translation: No more playing around. These are scatter guns. The more projectiles you can fit in them, the more "SCATTER" you get. The Striker 12, developed by the South Africans was developed to use the most common ammo & be able to deliver it rapidly. The defensive strategy is to shoot in front of an advancing mob at the street, to make the projectiles fan out MORE thus taking out more targets in each shot. Thus the coined nickname "STREETSWEEPER". The South Africans had genuine, well founded concerns about the need for no nonsense riot control.. Well we all now, for a short period of time, have the opportunity to be the first kids on our block to have our own streetsweepers! But ours have a faster rate of fire, they are more dependable & they have detachable higher capacity mags available.. Now why on earth would even the simplest of minds need to ask which one is better WHEN THE SHIT HITS THE FAN?!? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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