Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 I just want to share an idle thought. It occurs to me that it may be feasible to convert a Glock 20 or 21 to 7.62x25 with a replacement slide, barrel and magazine. The cartridge seems to just barely fit inside a G21 magazine, so presumably a thick-walled magazine could be made to hold 15+ 7.62x25 cartridges. I love the idea of a modern pistol chambered in one of my all-time favorite calibers, but is it practical? Would there be sufficient interest for any company to produce such a product? Who would I approach to beg for such a thing to be created? Hearing about Gunfixr's 7.62x25 conversion for his semi-auto M11 got me thinking, and this idea eventually arose. Mind that I have neither the skills nor resources to even begin to create such a thing, just wanted to share the idea and hear some feedback. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saigafreake 27 Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 ive been wondering bout the same thing to it would be sweet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raftman 1 Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 They were having a related discussion at a different forum and a fellow mentioned attempting to make a conversion kit that would allow his 10mm pistol to fire the 7.62x25 round. It seems the problem is the 7.62 Tokarev is a rather long round, more so than the .45acp and 10mm rounds (if I recall correctly) fired by the G20/21. It will likely call for a bigger mag to accommodate that, which in turn would require a different frame. Then you run into issues like the slide needing to travel further, again on account of the length of the Tokarev round. Obviously for long guns, these things aren't as likely to become issues but with handguns, they are. For a modern handgun to shoot that round, it would basically require a new model of gun, rather than a few replacement parts allowing an existing model to pull it off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 The slide travel might be an issue, but I have satisfied myself with empirical evidence that the rounds will fit in a custom mag. Commercial S&B ammo, Czech surplus, and Bulgarian surplus all fit into factory G21 mag bodies, so their OAL is not too great; steel-lined magazines could be made to accommodate the cartridge. A custom slide would probably be necessary, unless it worked with a factory 10mm slide (with a 9mm extractor). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5 Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 I just want to share an idle thought. It occurs to me that it may be feasible to convert a Glock 20 or 21 to 7.62x25 with a replacement slide, barrel and magazine. The cartridge seems to just barely fit inside a G21 magazine, so presumably a thick-walled magazine could be made to hold 15+ 7.62x25 cartridges. I love the idea of a modern pistol chambered in one of my all-time favorite calibers, but is it practical? Would there be sufficient interest for any company to produce such a product? Who would I approach to beg for such a thing to be created? Hearing about Gunfixr's 7.62x25 conversion for his semi-auto M11 got me thinking, and this idea eventually arose. Mind that I have neither the skills nor resources to even begin to create such a thing, just wanted to share the idea and hear some feedback. 7.62x25 over 10mm? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFox 69 Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 I just want to share an idle thought. It occurs to me that it may be feasible to convert a Glock 20 or 21 to 7.62x25 with a replacement slide, barrel and magazine. The cartridge seems to just barely fit inside a G21 magazine, so presumably a thick-walled magazine could be made to hold 15+ 7.62x25 cartridges. I love the idea of a modern pistol chambered in one of my all-time favorite calibers, but is it practical? Would there be sufficient interest for any company to produce such a product? Who would I approach to beg for such a thing to be created? Hearing about Gunfixr's 7.62x25 conversion for his semi-auto M11 got me thinking, and this idea eventually arose. Mind that I have neither the skills nor resources to even begin to create such a thing, just wanted to share the idea and hear some feedback. 7.62x25 over 10mm? Cheap plinking ammo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 I'm also interested in a modern handgun chambered is 7.62x25. The main problem, in my mind, is that it would require a completely custom barrel. According to Wikipedia, the bullet diameter of x25 is .31". That rules out using any other standard barrel and just using a reamer to re-chamber it, the closest size is .355 for 9mm/357sig/38super. I don't think magazines will be a problem if you use a platform intended for 10mm, this will also ensure that the gun could handle hot 7.62x25 ammo. According to Wikipedia, the OAL for 10mm is only slightly more than 1/32" shorter. So go find someone to make up some custom barrels and find a 10mm platform you like and we are in business. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 7.62x25 over 10mm? It's probably my favorite pistol cartridge, and certainly an effective one. 10mm is a great cartridge, but a little pricier than I prefer, and sometimes (especially lately) difficult to find. The availability of inexpensive surplus is a huge plus, and having a high-capacity modern pistol chambered for that cartridge would be great. The more I think about, the more it seems the 10mm slide would work without modification. .40 S&W and 10mm are the same rim size, as are 9x19 and 7.62x25; since a drop-in G19 (9mm) barrel and magazine will work in a G23 (.40 S&W) slide and frame without replacing the extractor, the same may well work for 10mm to 7.62x25... If anyone knows of a company willing to cut a custom 7.62x25 barrel for a G20 frame, please let me know. I'd let to experiment, and if it works, look further into the possibility of custom magazines... Promag? KCI? Someone should be willing to do it... If not, it may be possible to modify the feed lips and use steel or plastic inserts on the inside walls to make G20 mags function. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 The 7.62x25 has the muzzle energy of a .44 Magnum out of a Cz-52 Are you sure the Glock can handle such power? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 The 7.62x25 has the muzzle energy of a .44 Magnum out of a Cz-52 Are you sure the Glock can handle such power? Well, I don't know if wikipedia's data can be trusted, but it states muzzle energy for the 10mm auto is in the 730-770 joule range (out of a 4.6 inch barrel), and muzzle energy for the 7.62x25 is in the 400-760 joule range (out of a 4.7 inch barrel). It also states the muzzle energy for a 44 magnum in the 1200-1600 joule range. If the data is correct regarding the 10mm auto and the 7.62x25 cartridges are accurate, I'm not worried. If you are correct regarding the muzzle energy equivalency of the 7.62x25 and .44 magnum cartridges, it would be a very poor idea out of a Glock. That being said, there is a hugely noticeable difference in recoil when firing a CZ-52 versus a .44 magnum Desert Eagle. One would expect if the cartridges were equivalent, that the gas-operated, very heavy Desert Eagle would recoil less than the lighter, roller-delayed action of the CZ. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 7.62x25 over 10mm? ....If anyone knows of a company willing to cut a custom 7.62x25 barrel for a G20 frame, please let me know. I'd let to experiment, and if it works, look further into the possibility of custom magazines... Promag? KCI? Someone should be willing to do it... If not, it may be possible to modify the feed lips and use steel or plastic inserts on the inside walls to make G20 mags function. I would call Lone Wolf, they may be willing to help you. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 7.62x25 over 10mm? ....If anyone knows of a company willing to cut a custom 7.62x25 barrel for a G20 frame, please let me know. I'd let to experiment, and if it works, look further into the possibility of custom magazines... Promag? KCI? Someone should be willing to do it... If not, it may be possible to modify the feed lips and use steel or plastic inserts on the inside walls to make G20 mags function. I would call Lone Wolf, they may be willing to help you. Thanks a lot for the suggestion, that helped me gather a whole lot of information. Lone Wolf gave me a polite no, but referred me to Jarvis and KKM, both of whom I called. Jarvis said they could do it, but I would need to purchase about $2500 worth of tooling, and purchase a minimum of 50 barrels. KKM quoted about $6500 worth of tooling, but said if I could obtain a 1.5" barrel blank cut to the correct diameter and twist, and a chamber reamer (which they said could be obtained for around $100 each), they would do all but the fitting for me, for a few hundred bucks. So, I may be able to have one barrel made in this caliber for around $500. Now I have to decide if that's worth it to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
voonman 133 Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 The 7.62x25 has the muzzle energy of a .44 Magnum out of a Cz-52 Are you sure the Glock can handle such power? It should be able to...I shoot Doubletap 135gr nosler JHP rated at 1600fps with 900lbs of energy..Cycled almost 500rounds through it with this type of high powered loads with no serious signs of wear and tear. Not to say it wont eventually but i dont see any problems if he does that conversion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5 Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 I just want to share an idle thought. It occurs to me that it may be feasible to convert a Glock 20 or 21 to 7.62x25 with a replacement slide, barrel and magazine. The cartridge seems to just barely fit inside a G21 magazine, so presumably a thick-walled magazine could be made to hold 15+ 7.62x25 cartridges. I love the idea of a modern pistol chambered in one of my all-time favorite calibers, but is it practical? Would there be sufficient interest for any company to produce such a product? Who would I approach to beg for such a thing to be created? Hearing about Gunfixr's 7.62x25 conversion for his semi-auto M11 got me thinking, and this idea eventually arose. Mind that I have neither the skills nor resources to even begin to create such a thing, just wanted to share the idea and hear some feedback. 7.62x25 over 10mm? Cheap plinking ammo. Hadn't thought of that angle. If you could convert it on the cheap it might be an inexpensive screamer. I do like the "bark" of the 7.62x25. 10mm is pretty much a reloader's cartridge these days. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Cheap plinking ammo. Hadn't thought of that angle. If you could convert it on the cheap it might be an inexpensive screamer. I do like the "bark" of the 7.62x25. 10mm is pretty much a reloader's cartridge these days. Unfortunately, unless someone puts down the money to prototype, then start production on the barrels and magazines, it will not be an inexpensive conversion. Converting 10mm magazines by hand will be inexpensive in terms of capital, but expensive timewise. Having the barrels made will be downright expensive unless the tooling is purchased and a large batch is made. I haven't yet investigated the cost of custom magazine production, and am not certain who to contact. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) Unfortunately, unless someone puts down the money to prototype, then start production on the barrels and magazines, it will not be an inexpensive conversion. Converting 10mm magazines by hand will be inexpensive in terms of capital, but expensive timewise. Having the barrels made will be downright expensive unless the tooling is purchased and a large batch is made. I haven't yet investigated the cost of custom magazine production, and am not certain who to contact. I'm not convinced that a custom magazine will be necessary, but we really wont know until someone gets a 7.26 barrel. Anyone have 10mm mags and .26 ammo? Some tweaking feed lips or follower might be necessary, but I don't thing anything major will be necessary. The barrel should the #1 priority. To recoup your investment for a $500 barrel, you would have to shoot about 5k rounds. It's really unfortunate that no other common round has a bullet diameter close to 7.62. You might find this link interesting: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=139652375 Edited October 15, 2009 by bigj480 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) A custom magazine probably isn't neccesary, but a custom follower and inserts along the inner sides of the magazine may be. The feed lips on a .40 caliber magazine will just barely hold the 7.62x25 cartridge; I do not have a 10mm magazine to experiment with at the moment. It may just be possible that a 10mm magazine will work without modification, but it seems that the smaller diameter of the cartridge would cause the rounds to bind up, as they would not line up in a perfect double stack. A custom follower, or perhaps a G17/G19 follower with an attached tab to match the greater length of the magazine/cartridge, in combination with a plastic or metal insert on each side of the magazine to reduce the inside width to the same as the 9mm magazines, should make a factory 10mm magazine reliably feed 7.62x25. If anyone has a G20 magazine they would like to sell me, send a PM. Edited to add: Thanks for the link. Nice to see someone else shares an interest in a modern hi-cap in that caliber. Edited October 15, 2009 by Shandlanos Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Thanks for the link. Nice to see someone else shares an interest in a modern hi-cap in that caliber. Did you read the part about how the barrel was made? They used an existing 7.62x25 barrel as an insert. I don't know who did it for him, but he said it was only about $200. A press fit and pinned barrel insert should be fairly durable. Maybe I'll send him an email. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Thanks for the link. Nice to see someone else shares an interest in a modern hi-cap in that caliber. Did you read the part about how the barrel was made? They used an existing 7.62x25 barrel as an insert. I don't know who did it for him, but he said it was only about $200. A press fit and pinned barrel insert should be fairly durable. Maybe I'll send him an email. That would be great of you. A sleeved unit would be a fine prototype, and $200 is a lot less than a custom barrel made from scratch. I'm sure I can find an extra TT33 barrel to be made into a sleeve, and if I can find a used G20 barrel, it'll make things even easier. If you find out who created that barrel, I would love to get in contact. Of course, if I go forward with this, I'll need to buy a G20, or at least a replacement upper for my G21. This could end up being an expensive project. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Krom 36 Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 onesourcetactical has 7.62x25 conversion barrels... So some one has already done it.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 onesourcetactical has 7.62x25 conversion barrels... So some one has already done it.. They have lone wolf 9x25 conversion barrels. I do not see 7.62 conversion barrels. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 They have lone wolf 9x25 conversion barrels. I do not see 7.62 conversion barrels. Exactly, I couldn't find it either. I emailed the guy from gunbroker right after may last post, but got no reply. I found a comparison pic of 7.62x25 and 10mm side-by-side and the difference in OAL looked like it may be too great for a factory mag to work, even if modified. Then I found out that .38 Super and 9x23 will fit a 10mm Glock mag, according to THIS SITE. That indicates that 7.62x25 should fit without a problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Oddly enough.... I was talking to someone at Glock the other night. They told me that the Glock, most likely the small frame but they could not confirm, had been made in .30 Luger for European sales. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Krom 36 Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Opps, it was kinda late when I posted above, I must have mis read it.. sorry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Oddly enough.... I was talking to someone at Glock the other night. They told me that the Glock, most likely the small frame but they could not confirm, had been made in .30 Luger for European sales. I read that in a couple places. Also read that a lot of companies manufactured pistols in that caliber for sale to Italy, where 9x19 is illegal for civilian use (or used to be, and also read that now only FMJ is illegal in that caliber - not sure what their laws are really like). Interesting cartridge, unfortunately lacks the low price tag of the Russian round. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Opps, it was kinda late when I posted above, I must have mis read it.. sorry No worries. Got me excited for a moment though, thinking maybe I'd missed something in my search. Oh well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Oddly enough.... I was talking to someone at Glock the other night. They told me that the Glock, most likely the small frame but they could not confirm, had been made in .30 Luger for European sales. I read that in a couple places. Also read that a lot of companies manufactured pistols in that caliber for sale to Italy, where 9x19 is illegal for civilian use (or used to be, and also read that now only FMJ is illegal in that caliber - not sure what their laws are really like). Interesting cartridge, unfortunately lacks the low price tag of the Russian round. I am sorry, I did not make my point, well. My point was a barrel that could possibly be rechambered. This persons unoffcial opinion was that the action of the 20/21 was strong enough to take the pressures of the 7.62x25mm. Not a surprise considering a full bore 10mm round. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Oddly enough.... I was talking to someone at Glock the other night. They told me that the Glock, most likely the small frame but they could not confirm, had been made in .30 Luger for European sales. I read that in a couple places. Also read that a lot of companies manufactured pistols in that caliber for sale to Italy, where 9x19 is illegal for civilian use (or used to be, and also read that now only FMJ is illegal in that caliber - not sure what their laws are really like). Interesting cartridge, unfortunately lacks the low price tag of the Russian round. I am sorry, I did not make my point, well. My point was a barrel that could possibly be rechambered. This persons unoffcial opinion was that the action of the 20/21 was strong enough to take the pressures of the 7.62x25mm. Not a surprise considering a full bore 10mm round. Ah, I see what you're saying now. Unfortunately, if there are .30 luger Glock barrels out there, they'll no doubt be for the 9mm-frame pistols. Since the rim size, shell diameter and OAL are all compatible, all you need to convert a 9x19 to .30 luger is the replacement barrel; even the magazines work. It looks like the only real options will be a barrel sleeve (which I've been told by a gunsmith is notoriously difficult with factory Glock barrels due to hardness), or a custom-made barrel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Yeah, I was just doing some research and found that this talk over on GlockTalk. The mag now seems like it would be the biggest problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
georgiacatweasle 0 Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I've just had a few email discussions with lonewolf about 10mm glock to tok. ain't do-able, the tok is too long to work in a glock platform of any caliber. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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