Preventing bolt carrier / rear trunnion slam

[Steve_Feist 1]

Just curious as to how to prevent the bolt carrier slamming into the rear trunnion on the S 12.

I remember reading somewhere that you can't use the silicon buffers on the S12 like you can on the 7.26 x 39mm AK's.

However, I don't recall the reasoning as to why the S12's couldn't use the buffers.

 

 

I broke my S 12 in a couple of weeks ago and ran 300 rounds of Federal Magna Shock # 5 bird shot through it.

I also ran 50 rounds of Federal High Brass bird shot through it. Afterwards, I noticed that the was some slight circular marring on both the rear of the bolt carrier and on the rear trunnion. I can see where this could become a problem over time as the bolt is attempting to pulverize the rear trunnion by slamming into it.

 

I think that I had set the Gun Fixer plug on # 2 instead of the # 3 position, which would account for the marring. Would a weaker return spring help here?

 

What do you guys recommend to prevent this condition from happening?

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Zonie

[sapper1371usmc 107]

Lower your gas setting to 1 or -1. The higher the numbers go up, the more gas you are letting in.

[Makc 64]

I use it in both of my S-12's and the 7.62x39 - never had any problems...

 

http://www.saiga-12....il.asp?prod=BJB

 

[G O B 3,516]

I use one in mine. Works fine.

[Crusader 64]

I use it in both of my S-12's and the 7.62x39 - never had any problems...

 

http://www.saiga-12....il.asp?prod=BJB

 

Is that the same buffer as the blackjack buffer? I saw a warning about not using it on shotguns at CSS: http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-225/BLACKJACK-BUFFER-AK47-SAIGA/Detail

 

I have read post on this forum about buffers cycling problems. Has anyone had problems with these? Could it very from saiga to saiga?

[vitamink 90]

I think the issue is that the saiga's bolt moves farther rearward than a standard ak which is why you "can't" use a buffer. However many people do use them without problems and some people just shave them down just to make sure. Most recommend not using them, stating they affect the function. I don't really have any experience with that as i don't use one. If your bolt is slamming into the trunion, you should dial some of your gas off. Whenever i shoot, I always try -1 first then 1 then 2 and so forth for a given batch of ammo. I then record the ammo and the amount of gas to make it function so my next time out i can just set it and go.

[Gibbles 23]

I'm using a black one of those, I think I bought a pack from copes a few years ago...

 

It works well, but I have noticed it getting chewed up pretty good.

[Crusader 64]

I think the issue is that the saiga's bolt moves farther rearward than a standard ak which is why you "can't" use a buffer. However many people do use them without problems and some people just shave them down just to make sure. Most recommend not using them, stating they affect the function. I don't really have any experience with that as i don't use one. If your bolt is slamming into the trunion, you should dial some of your gas off. Whenever i shoot, I always try -1 first then 1 then 2 and so forth for a given batch of ammo. I then record the ammo and the amount of gas to make it function so my next time out i can just set it and go.

I would like to eliminate the steel on steel contact of the bolt carrier and rear of the reciever if possible. It sounds like I just need to try one and shave it down if I have problems and remove it if saving doesn't work.

[gpqueen 545]

I use it in both of my S-12's and the 7.62x39 - never had any problems...

 

http://www.saiga-12....il.asp?prod=BJB

 

Is that the same buffer as the blackjack buffer? I saw a warning about not using it on shotguns at CSS: http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-225/BLACKJACK-BUFFER-AK47-SAIGA/Detail

 

I have read post on this forum about buffers cycling problems. Has anyone had problems with these? Could it very from saiga to saiga?

Seems to be a 50/50 chance of it jamming the gun from what I have been told. Maybe I should change it to say it may not allow some S12's to cycle reliably. Works great in my rifles.

[6500rpm 670]

Less gas (adjustable plug) or more spring (1911 springs work for the front and come in several ratings). I've never had problems with buffers, but I can see the arguement that they just mask the problem and take up additional space at the rear of the receiver-many people use them in FA Mac's to tune the cycle rate, so they do have some rebound characteristics.

 

Edit (10/15)- I guess it all depends on how severe the problem is. The quick and easy fix would probably be the MD/Gunfixr plug and the buffer as a back up. Getting it dialed in with springs can be a bit tricky ane expensive unless you already have 1911 springs to start with.

Edited October 16, 2009 by 6500rpm

[Gibbles 23]

I think I may need to try the 1911 spring trick.

[corbin 621]

There's things you can do to minimize damage to the trunnion without sacrificing reliability. Having a Gunfixer plug is a no-brainer. Definitely get one. You could install a heavier recoil spring if you wanted. That might give problems with lighter recoiling ammo though. The blue buffer is a much softer material than the black. I made my own out of a gel insole, but the effect is the same:

 

 

 

 

Haven't had any issues from using the buffer, but your experience may differ.

 

Corbin

Edited October 15, 2009 by Corbin

[mscottrogers 56]

Are you Gelin'

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I use it in both of my S-12's and the 7.62x39 - never had any problems...

 

http://www.saiga-12....il.asp?prod=BJB

 

 

Plus one! There wasn't an option to click on so I'll make my own...lol.

 

I have run buffers in all of my Saigas with hardly any problems. That means my 410, 20 ga, and four S-12s, along with all 4 cailbers of AK style Saiga rifles. (.223, 7.62x39, 5.45 x39, and .308)

 

The only time I've had any trouble at all was in the S-12 with really crappy ammo, on either gas setting, or using high brass or magnum ammo with the gun set on #2. (If the gun is over gassed, it will sometimes shove the empty hull back in the chamber before it has time to eject, because it's bouncing the BC off the buffer)

 

 

+1

[Crusader 64]

I use it in both of my S-12's and the 7.62x39 - never had any problems...

 

http://www.saiga-12....il.asp?prod=BJB

 

 

Plus one! There wasn't an option to click on so I'll make my own...lol.

 

I have run buffers in all of my Saigas with hardly any problems. That means my 410, 20 ga, and four S-12s, along with all 4 cailbers of AK style Saiga rifles. (.223, 7.62x39, 5.45 x39, and .308)

 

The only time I've had any trouble at all was in the S-12 with really crappy ammo, on either gas setting, or using high brass or magnum ammo with the gun set on #2. (If the gun is over gassed, it will sometimes shove the empty hull back in the chamber before it has time to eject, because it's bouncing the BC off the buffer)

 

 

+1

Cobra 7.62: In your opinion, does this buffer increase the life of the Saiga?

[Garys4598 1,065]

I have run buffers in all of my Saigas with hardly any problems. That means my 410, 20 ga, and four S-12s, along with all 4 cailbers of AK style Saiga rifles. (.223, 7.62x39, 5.45 x39, and .308)

 

The only time I've had any trouble at all was in the S-12 with really crappy ammo, on either gas setting, or using high brass or magnum ammo with the gun set on #2. (If the gun is over gassed, it will sometimes shove the empty hull back in the chamber before it has time to eject, because it's bouncing the BC off the buffer)

 

 

+1

Dang.... With you being a Johnny-Reb and all, I figured you'd simply shoot your Saiga long gun (all your calibers) with the receiver cover off, holding the firearm from the your hip/waist.... and simply slap your dick in there.... using it as a trunnion backstop.

 

 

Oh damn.... that's right **slaps himself in the head**.... You Johnny-Rebs are sport'n 'wood' much too big to ever fit into a Saiga receiver.... (well... , not that I'd know or any such shit.... such is simply what I've been told).

 

 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Cobra, now before you go "WTF??!!!".... please know that I'm just play'n. I haven't ribbed you in so very long about being a Southerner.... I'd almost forgotten that I'm a Yank!)

 

Edited October 15, 2009 by Gary

[Crusader 64]

I have run buffers in all of my Saigas with hardly any problems. That means my 410, 20 ga, and four S-12s, along with all 4 cailbers of AK style Saiga rifles. (.223, 7.62x39, 5.45 x39, and .308)

 

The only time I've had any trouble at all was in the S-12 with really crappy ammo, on either gas setting, or using high brass or magnum ammo with the gun set on #2. (If the gun is over gassed, it will sometimes shove the empty hull back in the chamber before it has time to eject, because it's bouncing the BC off the buffer)

 

 

+1

Dang.... With you being a Johnny-Reb and all, I figured you'd simply shoot your Saiga long gun (all your calibers) with the receiver cover off, holding the firearm from the your hip/waist.... and simply slap your dick in there.... using it as a trunnion backstop.

 

 

Oh damn.... that's right **slaps himself in the head**.... You Johnny-Rebs are sport'n 'wood' much too big to ever fit into a Saiga receiver.... (well... , not that I'd know or any such shit.... such is simply what I've been told).

 

 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Cobra, now before you go "WTF??!!!".... please know that I'm just play'n. I haven't ribbed you in so very long about being a Southerner.... I'd almost forgotten that I'm a Yank!)

 

I don't think that this is the time or place for this kind of sillyness. Recoil buffers are a serious subject matter that should not be taken lightly. Don't get me wrong I like to have a good time as well, but not when I am talking about recoil buffers.

[Garys4598 1,065]

I don't think that this is the time or place for this kind of sillyness. Recoil buffers are a serious subject matter that should not be taken lightly. Don't get me wrong I like to have a good time as well, but not when I am talking about recoil buffers.

Hmmmmm.....

 

Your reply post might just tip the scale at being funnier than what I wrote (when viewed within a certain context).

 

 

[saigafan2 3]

I have used a Blackjack buffer, green and blue in my S-12 and the7.62x39 without any negative results. I also reccommend to have the bolt polished. the combo greatly enhances the lock time and greatly decreases the time for the follow-up shot.

It all seems to just lock quicker and smoother.

[TheDarkHorse 216]

I don't think that this is the time or place for this kind of sillyness. Recoil buffers are a serious subject matter that should not be taken lightly. Don't get me wrong I like to have a good time as well, but not when I am talking about recoil buffers.

Yep. Almost as serious as trigger guards.

[Crusader 64]

+1. However, I can accept an occasional joke while talking about trigger guards.

[AK-308 2]

I have used a Blackjack buffer, green and blue in my S-12 and the7.62x39 without any negative results. I also reccommend to have the bolt polished. the combo greatly enhances the lock time and greatly decreases the time for the follow-up shot.

It all seems to just lock quicker and smoother.

 

Really? Some amazing reflexes you got there.

 

 

Tony says don't use buffers in S12s, sounds like good advice to me.

[Garys4598 1,065]

...Tony says don't use buffers in S12s, sounds like good advice to me.

Yep, such is what Tony shared with me as well, some time ago.

 

[ZombieApoc1911 0]

Hey gang,

 

any chance that adding the Shock Buffer in the Saiga-12 will add to low brass cycling issues?

 

I am working through not being able to cycle the birdshot...I thought this might make it even tougher by absorbing some portion of the energy that will actually help avoid FTEs.

 

thoughts?

[Goose 95]

I have no idea where to find it now, it was just a quick comment in a thread of similar topic. But someone mentioned that they saw where someone else had fitted an AR buffer tube on their S12 and rigged a protrusion to the buffer spring that extended into the back of the receiver. It only met with the bolt carrier at the rear of the cycle just like the buffers shown above, it didn't replace the recoil spring or anything like that. It seemed ridiculously useless considering you could just buy a small piece of plastic, but if you had the tools and time, I guess it would be a really fun job to tinker with.

[ZombieApoc1911 0]

I think I will just buy one of the cheap ones from CSS or Saiga site and see what happens...$10 won't break the bank right?

 

I did install the CSS Saiga reliability kit and will see how that works at the range this weekend. Thanks for jumping in Goose.

[Nephilim7 107]

Total necro thread, but I'll play...

 

I don't use buffers, because I don't want them coming to pieces in the action under duress. Why doesn't anyone simply make a buffer out of soft brass? It is malleable enough to not come apart and won't mar any steel? Lead might work too...

[Bcrider 68]

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

Moderator - Please delete this reply to the post thread. I posted it before I realized it was from 2009 and my reply was not relevant to its present track. I apologize. Thank you.

Edited March 15, 2013 by LoudBoomBoom