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6.8mm Remington SPC II conversion


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Beautiful! Those are incredible groups too.

Since reloading isn't a problem, that leaves the Creedmoor, Grendel, and .243 in the running. I'd skip the Grendel. Both the others shoot flatter. You are limited to about 120 grain bullets, so you don't get the advantage of the really slick bullets available. Plus it's been done before.

 

The .243 would be a cheaper initial investment in brass and dies. I have a .260 Rem. I love it and I would encourage 6.5 caliber, but the advantage of off the shelf ammo for .243 is very real. Plus the higher B.C. of the 6.5 isn't a huge advantage. According to my ballistic calculator, it equates to about 3 inches less wind drift @ 500yds with a 10 mph wind.

 

Any of these conversions would be fairly srtaight-forward. May need some feed ramp work. Maybe the Grendel would work using Grendel followers in Galil Mags (1 U.S. part!) Not sure if they fit.

 

The biggest hang up I see is drilling the gas hole. How do you do it without leaving a burr? Solid carbide bit? Can it be deburred?

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Probably use an EDM machine to burn a hole in the barrel. Leaves no burrs, just a solid piece of carbon that slowly goes down against the metal and with the fluid around the metal, erodes the metal away. But, truthfully, I don't know exactly how they put the hole in the barrels for the gas ports.

 

6.5 Grendel has the same brass ALMOST EXACTLY as the 7.62 x 39 Soviet. You can make Grendel brass by fire forming 7.62 x 39 brass after reszing down the neck and putting in a light powder charge. After firing and resizing it is a little short, but soon, after other firings, stretches out the neck to be ther right length.

 

.243 Winchester, .260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmoor all use the .308 brass as a basis. So you can rework .308 brass to fit the bolt face. It is simpy necked down .308 shells and sometimes (ususally) shortened brass.

 

You might even go so far as to go to 7mm-08 which is a .308 necked down to 7mm bullet diameter.

 

Thing to alway consider is the use of existing magazines, and availability of reloading dies/components. I think the Creedmoor and .243 would fit very well in the .308 magazine for the Saiga. Have to try it sometime.

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I'd much rather buy brass than form it. But thats just because I'd prefer to spend that time shooting. Problem with forming for the Grendel is it is hard to find reloadable x39 brass, let alone quality.

I dismissed 7mm-08 for the same reason as .260 Rem. If you use long bullets, you have to seat them deep in the case to keep them to magazine length. Then you cant get the full powder charge, or get the bullet close to the rifling.

 

I like the sinker EDM idea, except that I don't have one. Someone here has to know how to do this right.

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Aksarben,

Thanks for the great report! As a long time reloader, I find this information vital. I used to use the H322 and H335 for .223 and H414 in the 308 class cartridge (the good old days). Yes, hand loading is good.

 

What's your experience with the 16" .223 when it comes to bullet weight?

 

Keep up the good work!

 

Frosty

 

Lube that avtomat! Comrade.

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Thanks, Frosty!! I'm using 55 gr FMJ boat tail. I have used some flat base and some lighter rounds that I bought commercially, like the 45 gr JHP from Winchester, but I don't think they are what this rifle likes. Each barrel is different though and some may find the 45 gr suits the rifle fine. Since I had good luck with the Sierra FJM BT, I ordered some of the Sierra GameKing in a HP boat tail, but I haven't loaded up any rounds yet to give them a go. If they hit like the FJM, they would be great for a varmint load.

 

Benchmark seems like a nice powder, and I also have used BLC-2, but you really need to use magnum primers because of the ball powder of BLC-2.

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You guys talking about my rifle?

 

Saiga 6.5 Grendel.

 

Ignore the crap I have hanging on it, it was a joke picture, but the one I have handy.

 

Paladin, I was hoping you would show up! Yes I had your Grendel in mind. Can you fill us in on some of our questions? We would appreciate the advice!

Edited by rak
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Do you use the regular 7.62 x 39 magazine or did you have to fashion something different? How about the hole for the gas block?

Nice looking rifle. And, how does it shoot?

 

I converted the rifle first and then started doing the research, I found that the existing X39 bolt will work with just a tad trimmed from the extractor.

 

The mags are 6.5G mags from CProducts: http://www.cproductsllc.com/shop/index.php?cPath=22

 

The magwell is an original ORF unit.

 

The match grade barrel I had made by Pac-Nor, Will from Red Jacket Installed it, I don't know how large he made the gas port. Its a little over gassed, but I think I'm going to put in a stronger spring. I haven't shot it that much to be honest. It's ended up being a safe queen.

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Well either the 260 Remington or the 6.5 Creedmoor would be good candidates for the .308 Saiga as both of these are designed off the necked down .308 Winchester brass. 6.5 Creedmoor is even made commercially by Hornady. http://www.hornady.c.../6.5-Creedmoor/ The .260 Remington has the same OAL of the .308 Winchester by the way, just a necked down .308 brass to .264

Edited by AKsarben
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The .260 Remington has the same OAL of the .308 Winchester by the way, just a necked down .308 brass to .264

For reference: Factory loaded .260 Rem ammo is made to work in .308 length mags. In my .260 Rem handloads, I use 130gr Berger VLDs. They have a very high B.C. They are very long, like little spears.

My most accurate loads are seated long, with the bullet close to the lands of the rifling. They are well beyond the listed max OAL, and they won't fit in a 308 magazine. (Since I am using a Mauser action, I have enough room in the fixed mag.) If I were to seat them deep (shorter OAL) I would lose powder capacity. But they will work.

 

I don't have experience with other bullets in this round, so I can't tell you how they work out on length.

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Probably .260 Remington. They are very close in most terms, but I think that the 6.5 Creedmoor is shorter, and more adapted to the short action of the ARs. If I used my Saiga .308, it would be a matter of pulling the barrel and replacing it with one with the right dimensions and the gas port cut in it, and the rest would/should work out alright.

 

6.5 Grendel is nice, but a little harder to find brass empties vs steel, as opposed to finding .308 brass that could be used. Also one could probably rechamber the .308 Saiga to the .243 Winchester, which is a very nice deer rifle caliber, and would be a flat shooting rifle in battle conditions for reaching out and having good kinetic energy as well.

 

Local gun shop has 260 Remington and also, surpise, 6.5 Grendel at 14.00 / box.

Edited by AKsarben
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I was a drill press operator at both Boeing Ailrplane Co., in Seattle and Egging Manufacturing near Gurley NE. We have a machine shop down the street from the winery, but they do their OWN work there. Starts at $40.00

All I have access to is a cheap drill press at the winery and assorted hand tools.

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I handled one about 4 weeks ago at a local gun store that has 2 of them. That perked my inerest in the 6.8 caliber. In fact, in another forum I'm following a thread that they are passing around a throat reamer that changes it into the SPC II chamber, and allows the use of hotter loads. That extra throat (from 0.050 to 0.100 makes a difference in the pressure, and the Mini-14 has a stainless steel barrel and chamber. Just not that sure about Mini-14s and their accuracy.

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I handled one about 4 weeks ago at a local gun store that has 2 of them. That perked my inerest in the 6.8 caliber. In fact, in another forum I'm following a thread that they are passing around a throat reamer that changes it into the SPC II chamber, and allows the use of hotter loads. That extra throat (from 0.050 to 0.100 makes a difference in the pressure, and the Mini-14 has a stainless steel barrel and chamber. Just not that sure about Mini-14s and their accuracy.

 

I had a Mini 14 and I Replaced that inaccurate piece o shit with my new Saiga 5.45x39. They're nowhere near as reliable as a Saiga either. They also tell you not to use steel cased ammo because its hard on the extractors and ive also heard the firing pins wont hold up too well against hardened primers. Also like to point out that my Mini was NOWHERE NEAR as accurate as my 5.45 Saiga is!

 

I've got no faith in ruger products anymore. At one time they were a great company, but since the old man died, i think they quality has gone to hell. The 10/22 is about the only gun i would even consider buying with the Ruger name on it these days.

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Well, Mr. Bill Ruger sided with the Assault Weapons Ban years ago and said that no sportsman needed a rifle with more than 10 shells in it. HE supported the AWB when every other manufacture was fighting it. I've not a lot of use of Ruger firearms, myself these days.

 

Thus one more of the MANY reasons i will not support Ruger any longer. I think its funny now that the old man is gone, they are building an AR platform now too for the outlandish MSRP of $1900. Their prices are WAY outta line! I could build 2 AR's for that, maybe 3, and God knows how many AK's could be built for that price!

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I didn't like the AWB thing, but I do have a Mini 14 ranch rifle that I love. On the reliability front, its right up there with the AK, as long as you don't use cheap ass no name brand mags, also, mine seems to be one of the few that shoots better than minute of barn door, PMC 55 gr. FMJ's regularly print 1.5" 3 shot groups, but the barrel does heat up and get flimsy pretty fast.

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Well, Mr. Bill Ruger sided with the Assault Weapons Ban years ago and said that no sportsman needed a rifle with more than 10 shells in it. HE supported the AWB when every other manufacture was fighting it. I've not a lot of use of Ruger firearms, myself these days.

 

Thus one more of the MANY reasons i will not support Ruger any longer. I think its funny now that the old man is gone, they are building an AR platform now too for the outlandish MSRP of $1900. Their prices are WAY outta line! I could build 2 AR's for that, maybe 3, and God knows how many AK's could be built for that price!

 

I'm going to stick my neck out and support the Ruger name. They have recently taken great strides to exceed expectations in recent years.

 

The Ruger SR-556 is Piston-Upper AR, like ALL ARs should be. You are NOT camparing apples to apples.

Their price isn't much out of line for what you compare it too. Cabelas sells it for $1,700. I am sure you can find it for near $1500.

Just compare what you are getting: Chrome Bolt, Piston Upper, Adjustable Gas Regulator, Full Rail System, incredible Troy Sights (Have you priced them?!) They also include MagPull Mags which are the best AR Mags on this planet. Aluminum mags are a weak ling in most ARs.

They are obviously putting out a world class product.

 

The new Mini 14 (580 Series) was re-tooled to bring up quality control. The tests I have seen have been less than 2 moa with MOST factory ammo and low powered scopes. My Saiga .223 prints some of the nicest 3 x 4 inch groups you have ever seen.(I hope to remedy that.)

 

Have you looked into the new SR9?

 

And isn't the 10/22 still the king of mass produced 22s? My 10/22 prints 100 yrd groups that would be called bald-faced lies if I printed them here. With the factory barrel and trigger.

Edited by rak
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Ruger is still partly a family owned business. So they hold quite a risk when it comes to lawsuits of liability. For example, I have been told that is why they don't have adjustable trigger on the M77, unlike other firearm companies that have been "milked like cash cows". (I am quoting a book covering this, but I don't remember the title or author.)

Since they have to cover their own rears more than most firearm companies, I believe that is why Ole Bill Ruger said what he said about the 10 round mags.

 

To be honest with you, he put out a ton of models of semi-autos. A guy like that must have loved to go rattle off rounds. Privately, I am sure he believed (with the political climate at the time) supporting 10-rounds-or-less would be a way to SAVE semi-autos from being banned. Yes, I said SAVE THEM FROM BEING BANNED.

And lets be honest. As annoying as the AWB was, it still allowed the public to own semi-autos. Maybe you can thank Ol' Bill Ruger for that.

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Well, Mr. Bill Ruger sided with the Assault Weapons Ban years ago and said that no sportsman needed a rifle with more than 10 shells in it. HE supported the AWB when every other manufacture was fighting it. I've not a lot of use of Ruger firearms, myself these days.

 

Thus one more of the MANY reasons i will not support Ruger any longer. I think its funny now that the old man is gone, they are building an AR platform now too for the outlandish MSRP of $1900. Their prices are WAY outta line! I could build 2 AR's for that, maybe 3, and God knows how many AK's could be built for that price!

 

I'm going to stick my neck out and support the Ruger name. They have recently taken great strides to exceed expectations in recent years.

 

The Ruger SR-556 is Piston-Upper AR, like ALL ARs should be. You are NOT camparing apples to apples.

Their price isn't much out of line for what you compare it too. Cabelas sells it for $1,700. I am sure you can find it for near $1500.

Just compare what you are getting: Chrome Bolt, Piston Upper, Adjustable Gas Regulator, Full Rail System, incredible Troy Sights (Have you priced them?!) They also include MagPull Mags which are the best AR Mags on this planet. Aluminum mags are a weak ling in most ARs.

They are obviously putting out a world class product.

 

The new Mini 14 (580 Series) was re-tooled to bring up quality control. The tests I have seen have been less than 2 moa with MOST factory ammo and low powered scopes. My Saiga .223 prints some of the nicest 3 x 4 inch groups you have ever seen.(I hope to remedy that.)

 

Have you looked into the new SR9?

 

And isn't the 10/22 still the king of mass produced 22s? My 10/22 prints 100 yrd groups that would be called bald-faced lies if I printed them here. With the factory barrel and trigger.

 

ok, again...let me quote myself from a previous statement that i made earlier in this thread. "The 10/22 is about the only gun i would even consider buying with the Ruger name on it these days." ANYWAY, to keep this thread on track: I think the ONLY reason that Ruger even bothered to chamber some of the new Mini-14's in 6.8spc was to try to rekindle an old dying flame.

 

IMHO, i think the Mini-14's & 30's was Bill Rugers sad attempt to try to take business away from companys like Colt, Armalite & Kalashnikov, by making an affordable gun that roughly had the same effect as the civilian models mentioned above in the eyes of the public. The trouble is that the quality & reliability just wasnt there. Honestly after seeing some of the more recent MSRP's on the Mini's; i think ill just stick to my Saiga's or maybe built an AR one day...Ruger's just getting WAY too greedy in my eyes.

 

BTW, I sold my Mini-14 for my Saiga 545, and i DONT regret it! I do a LOT of shooting and have been shooting the .223 round since i was a kid, and i think the 5.45x39 is every bit as accurate as the .223 out to about 200-300 yards. It might not have the same long range accuracy capabilities as the .223, but its perfect for what it was designed for.

Edited by RoughRider666
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I aggree with a lot of what you said. Ruger had accuracy problems with many models in the past. I haven't seen reliability problems with them, but I will take your word for it. Was Ruger trying to take some of the market for themselves? Of course! That is what every business has to do or they don't stay in business!

And I think the 5.45x39 is impressive to say the least.

 

I guess to boil it down, I think the NEW Mini in 6.8 meets AKsarben's goals. I do think it is an accurate, reliable, and fairly economic alternative to the Saiga conversion.

Plus the Rugers support badly needed jobs in the US.

 

I would like to see AKsarben put together a custom .243 Saiga. Why .243? I love customs and odd rounds, but I started to think about it more. If it were me, I would want to pass it on one day. And is the next generation going to have .260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5 Grendel, or 6.8 SPC ammo available? Will they have the time, place, ability, and urge to do handloads? Maybe, but if not... the .243 will always have factory ammo.

 

AKsarben, lets hear what you think. If I were you, I wouldn't rebarrel that .308 you have. It would kill me to do that to such a good shooter. Maybe you can find someone with a bad shooting .308 that would trade with yours. With those groups, yours ought to be more valuble than the standard Saiga.

Edited by rak
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It's true. My .308 seems to be a real shooter even with the 16" length barrel. Dave, the guy I bought mine from has a .308 in 22" which I never had a connection with because of the length of barrel. Same money too, $400.00. I don't have $400.00. But if I did, I'd buy it and then work little by little in conversions. I like the .243 as a caliber, but it's nature, by design, works better with slower burning powders. 24" is a good choice of barrels for the .243, as you have enough length to work with for best velocity and efficient burn and accuracy. My choice would be the .260 Remington. Same size brass as the .308, except just neck sized smaller. Should fit in a .308 Saiga magazine very well. Will have to get a piece or two of brass sometime and try it. It's VERY similar to the newer 6.5 Creedmoor that Hornady has developed, but I believe you can load it with heavier bullets, better. The 6.5 is a much better round for flat shooting out there above the .243, and hit's just a lot harder. You can take deer with .243, I've even taken 2 deer with the .223 chambered Savage I once had. However, the 6.5 has a great selection of different bullets, some match, others hunting. Recoils less than .308 and you should be able to load 25 rounds in the magazine like you do with the .308 Winchester. Pressures are very similar to .308 and I think the brass would last a long time as well. Remington and Federal both make factory ammo for this caliber. http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/SearchResults.aspx?catid=529&site=Ammunition&num=10&q=.260+Remington

 

.243 would make a very nice round in the fact that you can get ammunition for it practically anywhere. But, with me reloading, all I need is components. I shoot factory often just to get the brass. My ammunition store is right in my closet.

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