Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

5.56/.223 vs 7.62x39 vs .308 for doomsday scenarios?


  • Please log in to reply
116 replies to this topic

#1 guiri

guiri

    Member

  • Contributor
  • Pip
  • 73 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 06:52 AM

Hi guys, I'm new here and I thought I'd ask a few questions. I was sent here by one of the guys at the AR15.com forum.

I will post my questions below as I posted them there but I will first post the link to the same questions I asked on their site in case someone wants to see what their replies were.
As you will see, I had questions whether to get an AK or AR platform, then which caliber and so on but I also had considered the 308 because of the size and again, was directed here.

No, my primary goal will NOT be to kill bears (see the post below) but I do like to have a bit of a power buffer if I can. One question is, if you were to go out in the woods
for an amount of time and you could of course only carry so much weight, should you choose x amount of 308's or x amount of say 223's (not sure how much the weight difference is but I would imagine 50% more for a 308 cartridge)?

Ie, in an survival situation/war whatever, would MORE rounds be more important than fewer but more powerful rounds.

Please note that I would prefer a shorter barrel and possibly folding stock or something for better portability.

Other than the weight and given the same barrel length, are 308 carbines LONGER than 223 carbines and if so, by how much (roughly over the same length barrel AR and over an AK)?

http://www.ar15.com/...t=466850&page=1

(The pics of the AK's in the links below are to show what I think looks good since I never liked the look of the AK but some of those would apply to any carbine so I'll leave them)

========= My original post below ==========


Howdy boys and girls. Iím new here and Iíve come to ask for advice.

Iím thinking of buying an assault type weapon like the AK or AR and I want help in deciding what to get.

I doubt Iíll be out shooting much with it, I donít need to get too fancy, I wonít compete or hunt with it but rather, Iíd like to buy it, have it and train a little with it in case of a SHTF scenario. You know, doomsday kinda stuff. Hopefully itíll never happen and the gun will just be around in case but Obama has got me thinking and all this year 2012 and all that. Iím not a pessimist per say but itís not a bad idea to be prepared.

I would like to keep it under $1500 with mods and from what Iíve seen, the AKís are cheaper. The only two things that bother me about the AK (yes, I know itís stupid as hell but Iím a visual guy and I prefer to have the cake and be able to eat it too) is that I think itís ugly as hell with the standard wooden stock and grip and I donít see that many options available for it.

Also, the ammo is not really standard so in case of a doomsday scenario, what about ammo availability. Yes, I would buy the gun even if I think itís ugly. I did that with a motorcycle once because it was the best but I thought it was ugly and it WAS a great bike.

RELIABILITY is really high up on my list. I could care less about recoil nor will I be putting a bunch of fancy gear on there. Yes, some kind of sight for distance in case I need to hunt or something and maybe a flashlight but that would be it.

I like quality so Iím thinking of a milled AK. Maybe a folding stock but then, I would like a regular stock that I could keep stuff inside like maybe extra ammo, survival gear and such. Is this available? I have actually seen some AKís here that I like the looks of so that parts taken care of and my question is, if I decide to go that route, could I get some help from the folks here to assemble the right stuff, get it finished and so on?

I am NOT handy and I truly suck at following written instructions so Iím pretty sure Iíd dookie it up if I tried my hands at a DYI project.

What are your recommendations for the weapon, caliber, options and reliable sight/scope for long distance?

I would like to be able to take down say a bear if it ever came down to it and although a well placed .223 might do it, Iím thinking if I mess it up, I might just piss it off. I really would hate to have a big olí Kodiak make me his *itch.

At the end are a few links to AKís that I think look good. I wonít post links to ARís because they can apparently be had with virtually unlimited options and again, I am leaning towards the reliability of the AK.

Since Iím looking for advice from both the AR and AK camp, I hope no one has any problems with me posting this in both forums.

Dat dere is purdy http://img476.images...dsc00918vw7.jpg
http://img259.images...dsc00919tf1.jpg
http://i144.photobuc...tz/IMG_0194.jpg
http://carphotos.car...20054_large.jpg

Also, I am big on synthetical materials in guns.

http://foureyedcoupe.com/Pics/AK.jpg
http://img.photobuck.../newpics007.jpg
http://img.photobuck...RESAK106006.jpg

I like the idea of transparent mags so you know how many rounds you have left.

Krebs custom AK http://www.canonshoo...s2/ak103k-3.jpg
http://www.canonshoo...s2/ak103k-6.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/8a37xpe.jpg
http://img.photobuck...s9-13-05002.jpg
http://i102.photobuc...m_ultimak-2.jpg
http://img.photobuck...ralydone002.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/25f7ndu.jpg
http://img.photobuck...tm4/camo106.jpg
http://img.photobuck...eamsiii/107.jpg
http://img.photobuck...msiii/107_2.jpg
http://img525.images.../img4950by5.jpg
http://i338.photobuc...nversion/T3.jpg
http://i338.photobuc...nversion/T4.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/eim62x.jpg
http://i25.tinypic.com/264qddv.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/2ushh03.jpg
http://www1.zoto.com...60cfbcc125e.jpg

Thanks for any help

George

#2 Arik

Arik

    Citizen

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,968 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Philadelphia suburbs

Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:05 AM

Welcome to the Saiga forum

Hi guys, I'm new here and I thought I'd ask a few questions. I was sent here by one of the guys at the AR15.com forum.

I will post my questions below as I posted them there but I will first post the link to the same questions I asked on their site in case someone wants to see what their replies were.
As you will see, I had questions whether to get an AK or AR platform, then which caliber and so on but I also had considered the 308 because of the size and again, was directed here.

No, my primary goal will NOT be to kill bears (see the post below) but I do like to have a bit of a power buffer if I can. One question is, if you were to go out in the woods
for an amount of time and you could of course only carry so much weight, should you choose x amount of 308's or x amount of say 223's (not sure how much the weight difference is but I would imagine 50% more for a 308 cartridge)?

Ie, in an survival situation/war whatever, would MORE rounds be more important than fewer but more powerful rounds.

Please note that I would prefer a shorter barrel and possibly folding stock or something for better portability.

Other than the weight and given the same barrel length, are 308 carbines LONGER than 223 carbines and if so, by how much (roughly over the same length barrel AR and over an AK)?

Same. All Saiga carbines are have a 16.3in barrel with an optional 20in.
http://www.ar15.com/...t=466850&page=1

(The pics of the AK's in the links below are to show what I think looks good since I never liked the look of the AK but some of those would apply to any carbine so I'll leave them)

========= My original post below ==========


Howdy boys and girls. I’m new here and I’ve come to ask for advice.

I’m thinking of buying an assault type weapon like the AK or AR and I want help in deciding what to get.

I doubt I’ll be out shooting much with it, I don’t need to get too fancy, I won’t compete or hunt with it but rather, I’d like to buy it, have it and train a little with it in case of a SHTF scenario. You know, doomsday kinda stuff. Hopefully it’ll never happen and the gun will just be around in case but Obama has got me thinking and all this year 2012 and all that. I’m not a pessimist per say but it’s not a bad idea to be prepared.

I would like to keep it under $1500 with mods and from what I’ve seen, the AK’s are cheaper. The only two things that bother me about the AK (yes, I know it’s stupid as hell but I’m a visual guy and I prefer to have the cake and be able to eat it too) is that I think it’s ugly as hell with the standard wooden stock and grip and I don’t see that many options available for it.
There are a lot of mods for the Saigas. You can leave it as is or make it look like whatever you want. Some people here make them look all modern AR-like, other stick to the classic AK look, and everything in between. If you want to save money I would suggest to buy a Saiga (around $360) and go as plain or as fancy as you like. Look around the 223, 545, 7.62, and 308 subforums for pics that others have posted. You'll get a good idea of what you can make and what it would look like.

Also, the ammo is not really standard so in case of a doomsday scenario, what about ammo availability. Yes, I would buy the gun even if I think it’s ugly. I did that with a motorcycle once because it was the best but I thought it was ugly and it WAS a great bike.
The ammo IS standard. 223 and 7.62x39 are very common. And both are fairly cheap (18-25 cents/round) 308 is also a common caliber but a bit more expansive. Close to 50cents a round)

RELIABILITY is really high up on my list. I could care less about recoil nor will I be putting a bunch of fancy gear on there. Yes, some kind of sight for distance in case I need to hunt or something and maybe a flashlight but that would be it. If you're looking for reliability NOTHING beats an AK....NOTHING!!! Especially if you consider how cheap they are. Sure FAL are reliable but $$$$$$$$. Lots of stuff out there for mounting whatever you want. Quad rails, tri-rails, mono-rails, side rails..etc...etc

I like quality so I’m thinking of a milled AK. Maybe a folding stock but then, I would like a regular stock that I could keep stuff inside like maybe extra ammo, survival gear and such. Is this available? I have actually seen some AK’s here that I like the looks of so that parts taken care of and my question is, if I decide to go that route, could I get some help from the folks here to assemble the right stuff, get it finished and so on?
A brand new Saiga stamped is just as good as the used more expansive milled (Saiga new $360- Yugo $550 and up). If you want a folding stock (after you make the trigger group change) you ca throw on a Romanian side folding wire stock. Takes 3 seconds

I am NOT handy and I truly suck at following written instructions so I’m pretty sure I’d dookie it up if I tried my hands at a DYI project.
Same with me. I found someone to do the changes for me. I bought my 308 at the hight of the price jump ($600) plus custom work and it still cost me less than $1500

What are your recommendations for the weapon, caliber, options and reliable sight/scope for long distance?
If you want a hard hitting round that can take down big game as well as self-def go with 308. If you want one thats a little cheaper and yet versitile go with 7.62x39. This is just my opinion I dont like the 223. Your opinion and experiance may vary

I would like to be able to take down say a bear if it ever came down to it and although a well placed .223 might do it, I’m thinking if I mess it up, I might just piss it off. I really would hate to have a big ol’ Kodiak make me his *itch. I dont think you can take down a bear with a 223. Maybe piss it off thats about it. It would have to be one of those one in a billion shots. 308 is your best choice followed buy 7.62x39

At the end are a few links to AK’s that I think look good. I won’t post links to AR’s because they can apparently be had with virtually unlimited options and again, I am leaning towards the reliability of the AK.
Again, if you want reliable go with AK. THere isnt much you can do to it that will break it. Do some youtube searches and see. I even have a Romanian Ak where the whole trigger group was falling out and it still fired each and every time.
Since I’m looking for advice from both the AR and AK camp, I hope no one has any problems with me posting this in both forums.

Dat dere is purdy http://img476.images...dsc00918vw7.jpg
http://img259.images...dsc00919tf1.jpg
http://i144.photobuc...tz/IMG_0194.jpg
http://carphotos.car...20054_large.jpg

Also, I am big on synthetical materials in guns.

http://foureyedcoupe.com/Pics/AK.jpg
http://img.photobuck.../newpics007.jpg
http://img.photobuck...RESAK106006.jpg

I like the idea of transparent mags so you know how many rounds you have left.

Krebs custom AK http://www.canonshoo...s2/ak103k-3.jpg
http://www.canonshoo...s2/ak103k-6.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/8a37xpe.jpg
http://img.photobuck...s9-13-05002.jpg
http://i102.photobuc...m_ultimak-2.jpg
http://img.photobuck...ralydone002.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/25f7ndu.jpg
http://img.photobuck...tm4/camo106.jpg
http://img.photobuck...eamsiii/107.jpg
http://img.photobuck...msiii/107_2.jpg
http://img525.images.../img4950by5.jpg
http://i338.photobuc...nversion/T3.jpg
http://i338.photobuc...nversion/T4.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/eim62x.jpg
http://i25.tinypic.com/264qddv.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/2ushh03.jpg
http://www1.zoto.com...60cfbcc125e.jpg

Thanks for any help

George

IMO there isnt much that can beat the AK in price, caliber choices, reliability and mods. You just cnat beat that combo. Sure they wount put each round through the same ragged hole in a paper target from 200yrds away but it wount dissapoint you eighter.

I seriously recomand you look through these forums and see what people have made with their Saigas and what services the many vendors here offer. Good luck with your search.


Edited by Arik, 02 November 2009 - 09:06 AM.


#3 Jim Digriz

Jim Digriz

    Top Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,944 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:12 AM

No, my primary goal will NOT be to kill bears (see the post below) but I do like to have a bit of a power buffer if I can. One question is, if you were to go out in the woods
for an amount of time and you could of course only carry so much weight, should you choose x amount of 308's or x amount of say 223's (not sure how much the weight difference is but I would imagine 50% more for a 308 cartridge)?

Ie, in an survival situation/war whatever, would MORE rounds be more important than fewer but more powerful rounds.


Hi George,
I would go with a Saiga 308 in a 16 inch barrel for your scenario. I picked the 7.62x39 version because I can envision mostly suburban use for my own weapon, with the occasional venture into more rural areas. But you have a different situation than I do.

With a 308, you'll need less rounds anyway, presuming you're a good shot.

Jim

#4 renegadebuck

renegadebuck

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPip
  • 274 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:12 AM

Hi guys, I'm new here and I thought I'd ask a few questions. I was sent here by one of the guys at the AR15.com forum.

I will post my questions below as I posted them there but I will first post the link to the same questions I asked on their site in case someone wants to see what their replies were.
As you will see, I had questions whether to get an AK or AR platform, then which caliber and so on but I also had considered the 308 because of the size and again, was directed here.

No, my primary goal will NOT be to kill bears (see the post below) but I do like to have a bit of a power buffer if I can. One question is, if you were to go out in the woods
for an amount of time and you could of course only carry so much weight, should you choose x amount of 308's or x amount of say 223's (not sure how much the weight difference is but I would imagine 50% more for a 308 cartridge)?

Ie, in an survival situation/war whatever, would MORE rounds be more important than fewer but more powerful rounds.

Please note that I would prefer a shorter barrel and possibly folding stock or something for better portability.

Other than the weight and given the same barrel length, are 308 carbines LONGER than 223 carbines and if so, by how much (roughly over the same length barrel AR and over an AK)?

http://www.ar15.com/...t=466850&page=1

(The pics of the AK's in the links below are to show what I think looks good since I never liked the look of the AK but some of those would apply to any carbine so I'll leave them)

========= My original post below ==========


Howdy boys and girls. I’m new here and I’ve come to ask for advice.

I’m thinking of buying an assault type weapon like the AK or AR and I want help in deciding what to get.

I doubt I’ll be out shooting much with it, I don’t need to get too fancy, I won’t compete or hunt with it but rather, I’d like to buy it, have it and train a little with it in case of a SHTF scenario. You know, doomsday kinda stuff. Hopefully it’ll never happen and the gun will just be around in case but Obama has got me thinking and all this year 2012 and all that. I’m not a pessimist per say but it’s not a bad idea to be prepared.

I would like to keep it under $1500 with mods and from what I’ve seen, the AK’s are cheaper. The only two things that bother me about the AK (yes, I know it’s stupid as hell but I’m a visual guy and I prefer to have the cake and be able to eat it too) is that I think it’s ugly as hell with the standard wooden stock and grip and I don’t see that many options available for it.

Also, the ammo is not really standard so in case of a doomsday scenario, what about ammo availability. Yes, I would buy the gun even if I think it’s ugly. I did that with a motorcycle once because it was the best but I thought it was ugly and it WAS a great bike.

RELIABILITY is really high up on my list. I could care less about recoil nor will I be putting a bunch of fancy gear on there. Yes, some kind of sight for distance in case I need to hunt or something and maybe a flashlight but that would be it.

I like quality so I’m thinking of a milled AK. Maybe a folding stock but then, I would like a regular stock that I could keep stuff inside like maybe extra ammo, survival gear and such. Is this available? I have actually seen some AK’s here that I like the looks of so that parts taken care of and my question is, if I decide to go that route, could I get some help from the folks here to assemble the right stuff, get it finished and so on?

I am NOT handy and I truly suck at following written instructions so I’m pretty sure I’d dookie it up if I tried my hands at a DYI project.

What are your recommendations for the weapon, caliber, options and reliable sight/scope for long distance?

I would like to be able to take down say a bear if it ever came down to it and although a well placed .223 might do it, I’m thinking if I mess it up, I might just piss it off. I really would hate to have a big ol’ Kodiak make me his *itch.

At the end are a few links to AK’s that I think look good. I won’t post links to AR’s because they can apparently be had with virtually unlimited options and again, I am leaning towards the reliability of the AK.

Since I’m looking for advice from both the AR and AK camp, I hope no one has any problems with me posting this in both forums.

Dat dere is purdy http://img476.images...dsc00918vw7.jpg
http://img259.images...dsc00919tf1.jpg
http://i144.photobuc...tz/IMG_0194.jpg
http://carphotos.car...20054_large.jpg

Also, I am big on synthetical materials in guns.

http://foureyedcoupe.com/Pics/AK.jpg
http://img.photobuck.../newpics007.jpg
http://img.photobuck...RESAK106006.jpg

I like the idea of transparent mags so you know how many rounds you have left.

Krebs custom AK http://www.canonshoo...s2/ak103k-3.jpg
http://www.canonshoo...s2/ak103k-6.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/8a37xpe.jpg
http://img.photobuck...s9-13-05002.jpg
http://i102.photobuc...m_ultimak-2.jpg
http://img.photobuck...ralydone002.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/25f7ndu.jpg
http://img.photobuck...tm4/camo106.jpg
http://img.photobuck...eamsiii/107.jpg
http://img.photobuck...msiii/107_2.jpg
http://img525.images.../img4950by5.jpg
http://i338.photobuc...nversion/T3.jpg
http://i338.photobuc...nversion/T4.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/eim62x.jpg
http://i25.tinypic.com/264qddv.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/2ushh03.jpg
http://www1.zoto.com...60cfbcc125e.jpg

Thanks for any help

George



Ok, I'll give it a shot. You don't seem to want to spend time or have a place to become a good marksman, so the scope and caliber for distance shots really doesn't matter as it takes practice(lots). That just leaves medium and short range, forget the rifle, get a Saiga 12 ga and a few magnum slugs along with assorted shot for game(including buckshot), trick it out the way you like it, Buy ammo, and pocket the rest of your money. I say this as none of the rifle rounds are really good for small game, and unless you practice and go hunting, your chances of lucking up on a deer or boar is almost zero. You will need to survive on small game so the shotgun is about your only option. Edited to add: I really didn't mean for this to come off that strong like I was being an ass. You can always learn to shoot and use a rifle, but It wouldn't be the time to learn if you were hungry. The Saiga 12 with 3" magnums would be good to 100 yds and would down almost anything and still have the reliability of an AK.

Edited by renegadebuck, 02 November 2009 - 03:03 PM.


#5 guiri

guiri

    Member

  • Contributor
  • Pip
  • 73 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:30 AM

Arik, "Same. All Saiga carbines are have a 16.3in barrel with an optional 20in." are you saying they are the same length as an AK? What then is the difference? Just thicker steel or what?

I DID see a bunch of customer Saigas here and most of them look just like the AK's with same options. What IS the difference between it and an AK.

Are the saigas NOT as reliable as the AK?

Difference in ballistics between the russian 7.62 and the nato/308? and also between 223 and 308?

Again, in one of my scenarios, would rather carry more rounds but smaller or fewer but bigger knowing that you'll likely NOT need the heavier punch of the 308?

So, where do you get a $360 saiga and what's the quality, condition on one of those? Links?

"(Saiga new $360- Yugo $550 and up)" WHere?

Can I get a folding stock that's not a skeleton stock and that holds cleaning kits, etc?

ALso, bear is NOT a priority and I figure I can cram enough of little rounds up his butt to at least make him reschedule his dinner till after he's been to the shitter.

MOA accuracy is NOT that high on the wish list. I'm sure I can ruin some dudes day at 100 yards with fair ease.

Thanks

George

#6 guiri

guiri

    Member

  • Contributor
  • Pip
  • 73 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:32 AM

Hi George,
I would go with a Saiga 308 in a 16 inch barrel for your scenario. I picked the 7.62x39 version because I can envision mostly suburban use for my own weapon, with the occasional venture into more rural areas. But you have a different situation than I do.

With a 308, you'll need less rounds anyway, presuming you're a good shot.

Jim


Well, since it's semi auto, I won't spray and pray either unless they are right on top of me and that shouldn't be a problem in the woods as much. If this happened, I would move up in the mountains by the way. Always wanted to go up north anyway. So yeah, more calculated shots.

#7 guiri

guiri

    Member

  • Contributor
  • Pip
  • 73 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:34 AM

Ok, I'll give it a shot. You don't seem to want to spend time to become a good marksman, so the scope and caliber for distance shots really doesn't matter as it takes practice(lots). That just leaves medium and short range, forget the rifle, get a Saiga 12 ga and a few magnum slugs along with assorted shot for game(including buckshot), trick it out the way you like it, Buy ammo, and pocket the rest of your money. I say this as none of the rifle rounds are really good for small game, and unless you practice and go hunting, your chances of lucking up on a deer or boar is almost zero. You will need to survive on small game so the shotgun is about your only option.


Thank you sir

#8 SheepdogSurvival

SheepdogSurvival

    Executive Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 562 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chesapeake VA

Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:37 AM

Head over to k-var and pick up one of their 7.62x39 that are on sale (between $500-600) which is a steal for that kind of weapon.

Or go with a 7.62x39 or a .308 carbine as stated above. I think the 7.62x39 round has plenty of power hunting or /bear defense wise (no so much bear hunting wise, it would likely require multiple shots), remember that a 7.62x39 is on par with a 30-30 power but penetrates better.

My opinion is that a .223/556 is a very attractive SHTF caliber, it seems like you want a heavier hitting type round so go with the one of the 7.62's.

PS do a search around the forum for SHTF threads, there is a shitload of info on it.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

- SAMUEL ADAMS


#9 guiri

guiri

    Member

  • Contributor
  • Pip
  • 73 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:45 AM

Head over to k-var and pick up one of their 7.62x39 that are on sale (between $500-600) which is a steal for that kind of weapon.

Or go with a 7.62x39 or a .308 carbine as stated above. I think the 7.62x39 round has plenty of power hunting or /bear defense wise (no so much bear hunting wise, it would likely require multiple shots), remember that a 7.62x39 is on par with a 30-30 power but penetrates better.

My opinion is that a .223/556 is a very attractive SHTF caliber, it seems like you want a heavier hitting type round so go with the one of the 7.62's.

PS do a search around the forum for SHTF threads, there is a shitload of info on it.



Well, it is for a poop and air circulation event as such :)

The question also is, am I better off say carrying 200 rounds of 223 or 80 rounds of 308 or whatever.

I DID look at the K-Var options and I liked them. I'm not SOLD on a large caliber but merely thinking for now. I LIKE bigger calibers as they leave less of a doubt as to the end result but then, there's the I will hike for months in terrain and drag this shit around. DO I drag 80 rounds or 200 and will what I encounter require 223 or 308 rounds?

#10 Jim Digriz

Jim Digriz

    Top Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,944 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:57 AM

The question also is, am I better off say carrying 200 rounds of 223 or 80 rounds of 308 or whatever.

I DID look at the K-Var options and I liked them. I'm not SOLD on a large caliber but merely thinking for now. I LIKE bigger calibers as they leave less of a doubt as to the end result but then, there's the I will hike for months in terrain and drag this shit around. DO I drag 80 rounds or 200 and will what I encounter require 223 or 308 rounds?


308 gives you effectiveness at greater ranges than 223 and x39. It also gives you a considerably higher likelihood of one shot stops.

#11 guiri

guiri

    Member

  • Contributor
  • Pip
  • 73 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:14 AM

308 gives you effectiveness at greater ranges than 223 and x39. It also gives you a considerably higher likelihood of one shot stops.


Absolutely and the reason I'm considering it but what about my previous questions and the use I'll put it to? More smaller rounds or fewer bigger?
I mean, will I not need the smaller more often than the big ones?

#12 YARP

YARP

    Citizen

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,149 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:13 AM

There's a reason you have to carry more rounds when your shooting the .223/5.56 NATO, it takes more to accomplish what you can do with one of the larger rounds. But if spray and pray is your deal then it's probaly a good round. As far as the 7.62x39 goes, you'll probaly be able to find rounds where ever you go. But all in all (mind you the 7.62x51 is my favorite round) if your going to carry the weight of the 7.62x39 you might as well up it to the 7.62x51.
I'd rather carry 100rds of 7.62x51 then 200 5.56 NATO.
As far as what gun to purchase, thats all your personal preferance. I've always given the same advice to people jumping into the gun world...try tons buy once, not buy tons and try once. I'm sure if you found a few members on here or other forums they'd be willing to let you try some of there weapons. Also if your just jumping into the gun world, you don't need to start off with all the bells and whistles. Iron sights have been in use since guns were first made, and there an excellent way to learn how to shoot, they are essential to any weapon if your other optics go down. Save your money and buy something really nice. I've watched (and was also the same way when I first started shooting) alot of my friends buy two or three guns before they finally saved up and purchased the one they origianlly wanted, all the while losing money from each seperate gun they bought.
as far as suggestions go on what to buy, for something in the 7.62x51 platform I'd suggest the FAL with a folding stock (It's by far my most favorite rifle) at the moment they are about $1200.00 to $1600.00 on Gunbroker.
The only gun I own in the 7.62x39 is an AK pistol
as far as the 5.56 platform goes I don't own anything that shoots this round anymore, it seems to me it's always over powered or under powered for the applications people want to use it for.
Either way, Good Luck!

#13 Rock-in-A

Rock-in-A

    Straight Shooter

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 606 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas by God

Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:16 AM

For the $ 1,500. you posted you could buy a 2 Saiga's 7.62's and restore them both and still have 1/3 of your money left for ammo...I bought several and converted and and the remaining one is back-up or parts or even others (family) to use. I believe a good plan would also have too include shotgun, pistol.
Having a wife is like having a new pistol....sooner or later you know your gonna want to shoot it.

"You can never have too many guns or ex-wives"

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" don't you understand ??

#14 BpS12

BpS12

    Citizen

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,889 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SW, Oiho

Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:35 AM

Guiri,

If you not going take the time to practice, you WILL need more ammo, no matter what rifle you carry. The .308 is a Battle Rifle(not a Sniper Rifle) but without practice, you loose the distance advantage regardless.

Esp. w/ the 16" barrel. Imho, and for you, forget the .308, it's advantages are outweighed by your needs. Go with the x39. It was built as an all around round and is the best of both worlds(relative accuracy and stopping power), besides the fact of it's availabilty. I'd go with the 20" barrel just because I like to reach out as far as I can. But then I would Bullpup it, likely makeing it a bit shorter than the standard 16"er and no butt stock to just add weight. But thats my op. I carry a cleaning kit, for all my carried weapons, on my vest/belt.

Ultimately what you REALLY want is a Saiga 12 w/19" barrel. The ammo is cheap, plentiful and insanely diverse, relatively speaking. Not to mention, One 10rnd mag of 00 buckshot = 90-120, roughly .30 rnds(9-12/shell). Thats 3-4 30rnd mags of ANYTHING else. Think about it, that's 9-12 .30 rnds, going down range, with EACH pull of the trigger. At 50yds, you'll have roughly a 50" spread +/-. You WILL hit something with at least a few of those .30 pellets. Esp. if you aim low center mass. Beyond 30-50yrds, switch to slugs, esp. the 3" Magnums. Unless you're a "natural", you'll likely not be much good beyond 100 or so yards anyway, at least not w/o practice.

And remember, if SHtF, you will most likely not be where you want to be at the time(whats your relative location?). So you will have to get there, possibly through an urban setting, and even in the woods, your max range will likely only be 100yds or so(stay out of open feilds/parking lots/etc.).

For the non-gun nut, go S12 all the way. If this is your first/only gun, or as you said, you just want something, just in case, that IS highly reliable, easy to shoot, easy to maintain, and can take out a bear if need be, the S12 is the only real answer. Everything else's only advantage is range(if you practice).

At least that's what I've found to be true. I wanted the S.308 until I moved to Ohio(from Arizona). Too urban here and where it is not, 100+yrds is pretty standard. The S12 will doing everything you need plus so much more.

Good luck and see you when it hits,
Mikel
  • kencrawleysc likes this
"Faith is OF the Individual, Religion is FOR the Community. Unfortunately, Religion OFTEN tramples over Faith."
"Ignorance is simply not knowing. Stupidity is knowing and choosing not to act accordingly."
"Look back ONLY to learn, NEVER to regret."
"From his weapons away, No one should ever stir one step upon the field. For no one knows, when need might have, of a sudden, a man of his weapon." Odin from the Havamal

#15 guiri

guiri

    Member

  • Contributor
  • Pip
  • 73 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:39 AM

For the $ 1,500. you posted you could buy a 2 Saiga's 7.62's and restore them both and still have 1/3 of your money left for ammo...I bought several and converted and and the remaining one is back-up or parts or even others (family) to use. I believe a good plan would also have too include shotgun, pistol.


Yep, revolver (it fits my short fingers better) in 357 is one of them and a shotgun with 9 shot capacity another.

What's the deal with the quality of the saigas vs the FAL's and what about reliability vs the AR's and AK's?

#16 guiri

guiri

    Member

  • Contributor
  • Pip
  • 73 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:44 AM

When shit hits da fan, I hope to hook up with a bunch of you guys. The apocalypse has to suck by yourself :(

I expect to be up north in a few years or at least want to. I want big land up north and although I DO want a shotgun, I DO also want a carbine for the reach out and touch someone occasions.

+++++++ Hey, are these really 12 gauge shotguns? ++++++++++++ http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=13312

Edited by guiri, 02 November 2009 - 11:49 AM.


#17 BpS12

BpS12

    Citizen

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,889 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SW, Oiho

Posted 02 November 2009 - 12:26 PM

Boggles the mind a bit doesn't it, lol.
"Faith is OF the Individual, Religion is FOR the Community. Unfortunately, Religion OFTEN tramples over Faith."
"Ignorance is simply not knowing. Stupidity is knowing and choosing not to act accordingly."
"Look back ONLY to learn, NEVER to regret."
"From his weapons away, No one should ever stir one step upon the field. For no one knows, when need might have, of a sudden, a man of his weapon." Odin from the Havamal

#18 Arik

Arik

    Citizen

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,968 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Philadelphia suburbs

Posted 02 November 2009 - 12:55 PM

Yes they are 12G. And you can do the same to any Saiga regardless of caliber.

Atlantic Firearms, and other vendors as well, have the Saiga 7.62x39 for about $360 +/-

Reliability of any Saiga is the same as any AK. It is basicaly an AK in a sporting config.

Here are some pros and cons you might want to consider before purchasing.

308
PROS
-Carbine or full lenght
-powerful round capable of long range shotting and good accuracy
-AK reliability
-Lots of accessories. Can convert to practically anything you like or leave as is
-Mags are easy to find
-Standard side rails for mounting optics

CONS
-308 Rifle more expansive than the 7.62x39
-308 ammo more expansive than the 7.62x39
-Mags are specific to this gun.
-Mags are a little pricey ($30-$40 +/-)
-Weight
----------------------------------

7.62x39
PROS
-Cheap rifle (price not quality)
-Lots of accessories. Can convert to practically anything you like or leave as is
-With a bullet guide will take ANY AK47 mags
-Cheap and plentiful mags (with addition of a bullet guide)
-good round with plenty of stopping power and penetration. Relatively cheap ammo that is available everywhere
-AK reliability
-16 or 20in barrel
--Standard side rails for mounting optics

CONS
-Have to have a bullet guide to use standard AK mags (not expansive and fairly easy to install)
-Not as accurate as the .223
-Does not have the combined distance and accuracy of the 308

------------------------------------------------------

.223
PROS
-16 or 20in barrels
-AK reliability
-Cheap rifle (price) same as the x39
-Lots of accessories
-Cheap and plentiful ammo
-More accurate than the 7.62x39
-Standard side rails for mounting optics

CONS
-Less stopping power and penetration than the 7.62x39
-Does not have the distance of the 308

NEUTRAL
-I dont know if it needs specific mags

All are made at the same factory on the same assembly line as the Russian military AKs. Allthough not as accurate as the AR they are overall much, much, much more reliable. (remember there are lemons and superstars from every manufacturer)

Look around. There are companies selling AKs from mid $300 range and up. Good time to buy. But make sure you check the rifle. Some manufacturers are better than others.

The Saiga 12 is also a vwery good idea. I dont own one at the moment but planing to get one soon. Nothing will beat the stopping power of a 12g slug :)

One thing to think about. The Saiga you are buying is a brand new rifle.

If you live in Pennsylvania in the Philadelphia / Lehigh Valley area you're more than welcome to try out my to see if you like it.

Besides the 12ga. If you're not going to do much practicing and will rely on spray and pray than I think overall your best bet would be the 7.62x39. Good penetration/ stopping power, cheaper than the 308 to spray

Edited by Arik, 02 November 2009 - 01:00 PM.

  • kencrawleysc likes this

#19 facepull

facepull

    Member

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 62 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 02:34 PM

the saiga 12 is a great SHORT RANGE weapon. 50 yards is long range for buck shot. I'd take my chances against someone at 50 yards with him using buckshot against my saiga 308. Unless you are running I will never miss at 50 yards with a 308 rifle. trying to hit someone with buckshot at 50 yards? good luck! try the best of both worlds. convert a saiga 12 into a pistol grip shotgun with no butt stock and also have a saiga 308 or 7.62x39

#20 guiri

guiri

    Member

  • Contributor
  • Pip
  • 73 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 04:01 PM

Nah, I WILL practice and I used to be a good shot so my intention is NOT to spray and pray and yes, I'd rather shoot once and end it there than maybe having to shoot more. The question is still, are the 223's going to be enough for 95% of the scenarios in which case, I can carry more ammo or not?

Also, are you saying the SAME Saiga is either shotgun or 308? That can't be right? I mean, from what I remember, a shotgun shell is thicker than a 308 cartridge. I'm confused and need clarification on this please.

Thanks

George

#21 Jim Digriz

Jim Digriz

    Top Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,944 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 November 2009 - 04:05 PM

Also, are you saying the SAME Saiga is either shotgun or 308? That can't be right? I mean, from what I remember, a shotgun shell is thicker than a 308 cartridge. I'm confused and need clarification on this please.



No, they're not. They are two distinct guns.


Nah, I WILL practice and I used to be a good shot so my intention is NOT to spray and pray and yes, I'd rather shoot once and end it there than maybe having to shoot more. The question is still, are the 223's going to be enough for 95% of the scenarios in which case, I can carry more ammo or not?


Only you can answer that question. I think the general consensus here is that you will need less ammo with a larger round like the 308.

Jim

#22 guiri

guiri

    Member

  • Contributor
  • Pip
  • 73 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 04:28 PM

Thanks Jim

#23 facepull

facepull

    Member

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 62 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 04:53 PM

you can never have enough ammo regardless of the caliber. I say to carry as mush as you possibly can. For me if a shtf event happens I will be going into forests. mountains or hills away from cities. Im currently actualy planning this out with maps and such. I also need to buy a gps system. Im thinking of using some type of cart system that i can roll behind me that can carry maybe 200 pounds of supplies. As sick as I am I actualy hope some bad shit happens. I also hope that I will be ready. My favorite thing would be some type of zombie rising.

#24 guiri

guiri

    Member

  • Contributor
  • Pip
  • 73 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 05:26 PM

you can never have enough ammo regardless of the caliber. I say to carry as mush as you possibly can. For me if a shtf event happens I will be going into forests. mountains or hills away from cities. Im currently actualy planning this out with maps and such. I also need to buy a gps system. Im thinking of using some type of cart system that i can roll behind me that can carry maybe 200 pounds of supplies. As sick as I am I actualy hope some bad shit happens. I also hope that I will be ready. My favorite thing would be some type of zombie rising.



Well, I WANT to be up in the mountains and I plan/want to move up north so I'd be doing the same and dammit, a zombie uprising would be cool :)

#25 buckandaquarterquarterstaff

buckandaquarterquarterstaff

    Executive Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 686 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 07:12 PM

Just my $.02, but in any true SHTF situation, you really want to be unseen and just get by until things settle out. One person taking a stand against anything is a bad idea for lots of reasons. Feeding and concealing yourself will be key, so some knowledge of what you can eat and how to fish/hunt without being seen/heard are really where I'd focus. For $1500 I'd spend more on all the other gear besides the rifle (you have to stay warm and dry first with gear you can pack fast). Depending on the part of the country where you live you may or may not want a rifle over a shotgun. A shotgun is much more useful in feeding yourself, and coping with close quarters situations (IMO). If it's just you and you have to carry everything in country that is partially open, I'd go with a takedown 22 bolt action (think marlin papoose like gun, but a bolt gun) and an AR. The AR is lighter and the 223 can take down people and deer sized targets reasonably well without adding much weight in ammo. You may never need the battle rifle, so less ammo weight is good. For the 22 bring mainly subsonic ammo (target style ammo) as it's very quiet and still good to 100+ yards. You may want to scope the 22 with a cheap scope you can switch over to the AR quickly, but most aiming shots are likely to be at game and not bad guys.

The above said, your money is better spent on other stuff.

#26 guiri

guiri

    Member

  • Contributor
  • Pip
  • 73 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 07:47 PM

I will have money for other stuff so the roughly 1500 bucks is just for the gun. I already have some nice knives and a couple of decent flashlights but when I get my money in six months or so, I plan to add other stuff and make a ready to go back pack that I can keep in my truck or something.

#27 buckandaquarterquarterstaff

buckandaquarterquarterstaff

    Executive Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPip
  • 686 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:33 PM

I will have money for other stuff so the roughly 1500 bucks is just for the gun. I already have some nice knives and a couple of decent flashlights but when I get my money in six months or so, I plan to add other stuff and make a ready to go back pack that I can keep in my truck or something.



That sounds like a pretty decent plan. If you have 1500 bucks I'd opt for a marlin papose 22 with 6 boxes of wolf match ammo. It probably won't cycle the action with the subsonics, but it will be very quiet and accurate enough. If you're very good with a pistol and pressed for space, nothing beats a colt woodsman 22 for an accurate pack gun, but I'd strongly recommend a 22 rifle with a low power scope over a pistol since you can hit targets a 75 yards with a rifle that you're likely not to get even close to with a pistol even if you're a great shooter. I typically also have a bubba'd SKS (bought it bubba'd as a basket case) for my trunk gun because it will not bother me as much to lose it to a cop in a traffic stop. Any of the military cartridges will do the job for all the rest of the rifle chores, but carry soft points as they are more likely to bring down game without having to track very far. 223 is probably the best choice since it's the lightest and carries out a good 400 yards and is deadly within 250. If you do find yourself having to make long shots on game with an SKS, turn off the gas system (if that's an option) and it is a bit more accurate in my experience. You can also load up subsonic 7.62x39 loads fairly easily, but they still make alot of noise due to the quantity of powder burned. One could easily justify toting a 12 ga pump gun instead of the rifle depending on where you are.

If you'll indulge me... For the other stuff, remember that an axe is more useful than a hatchet, is more useful than a knife, the one piece of gear I always have in my go kit is a fiskars axe with the plastic handle. Weighs little more than the head of the axe, and can keep you warm and sheltered for much less effort than almost any other piece of gear you might have to carry. Another think to pick up is one of those crank generator LED headlights that they sell at Northern Tool (and other places). They last forever without batteries (assuming you crank them every four hours or so). If you find the perfect lightweight tent, let me know. I've owned several and it seems like the best ones are bright yellow. If anyone makes a decent light weight free standing tent that weighs less than 3 lbs and is camo, they will sell thousands of them. Until then, a tarp works for me.

If you really want to learn how to get along in the sticks with almost nothing, read "camping and woodcraft" by Horace Kephart. It's a turn of the century book that is a fantastic read, and much more interesting than the typical survival guide type books that are offered today. Something about how people wrote in that day that is much more readable than today's non fiction authors.

#28 Atlantic Firearms.com

Atlantic Firearms.com

    Advanced Member

  • Business Member
  • PipPip
  • 480 posts

Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:13 PM

Our IZ 132 rifles are priced @ $339.00
Atlantic Firearms.com
sales@atlanticfirearms.com
www.atlanticfirearms.com
410 352 5183

#29 YWHIC

YWHIC

    Served & Earned...

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,617 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:TX

Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:42 PM

I got the 22lr Papoose takedown back in 93 (see left pic) as my first rifle. Got it doing cans at 100 yards with cheapy scope. I got my x39 Saiga for 'zombies' and such. And I got the old MN 91/30 for larger game and targets of 'density'. Next week I'll get my 12 guage pump and I'll be set for the SHTF situation.

Now a tent, hand-axe, and tarp,water tablets. etc.. make great sense. I agree with the HIDE and wait-it-out theory. Shelter and seclusion may be your friend. Posted Image
"Anyone whom threatens my existence, or whom erased my past, has no future" Quote By Me.
"Once they start shooting they all become just targets to me." Quote By Me.
BCM 14 1/2" Midlength [Shelly], VEPR 54R [Sault], Sig Pro SP2022, Marlin P70

#30 renegadebuck

renegadebuck

    Advanced Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPip
  • 274 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:58 PM

Nah, I WILL practice and I used to be a good shot so my intention is NOT to spray and pray and yes, I'd rather shoot once and end it there than maybe having to shoot more. The question is still, are the 223's going to be enough for 95% of the scenarios in which case, I can carry more ammo or not?

Also, are you saying the SAME Saiga is either shotgun or 308? That can't be right? I mean, from what I remember, a shotgun shell is thicker than a 308 cartridge. I'm confused and need clarification on this please.

Thanks

George



This post changes things a little as you are now practicing. Long shooting(400+ yds) is an art. I like the .308 with a POSP scope. Some folks don't. It's Russian and backwards to set up and use, but once you get used to it, it's good for the money, has a range finder in it, also has a lighted display for low light situations. Now for the cons, It's heavier by a lot! In a one gun(your parameters) situation, I'd go with the 7.62x39. It's good for 250-300 yds max., but you probably won't shoot much over that anyway. It's nowhere near as loud as the .308, nor as high pitched a report as the .223 which carries a long ways. I know it will drop a 260lb deer with one shot at 100 yds as he's on my wall. So to review, for the price of ammo, the price of the rifle, the price of the scope, good short to medium (shots most likely to be made)range, and weight, the 7.62x39 would be my vote in a rifle round. I still like the 12 gauge Saiga with the 10 rounders for all around usefulness. If you have to hunt squirrels, dove, or rabbit, you have loads that won't tear them to pieces. For deer, boar, or bear, you have magnum buckshot and slugs that will no question reach 100 yds, much more close range destruction than any of the others, still AK reliability. I personally would not plan a BOB without including a good .22lr or wmr. Ammo is cheap and light, Doesn't take up much room, would probably be used more than any other caliber for food gathering, quiet report even without subsonics. The AR is a great rifle as I have a few. The AK is a great weapon! It's just easier to take care of and to keep functioning. My .02




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users