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5.56/.223 vs 7.62x39 vs .308 for doomsday scenarios?


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#31 Rhodes1968

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 12:30 AM

I just decided one rifle would not do it all and went with the S308 for long distance and hunting while the x39 for 125yds and below. The recoil of the 308 makes rapid fire difficult but Im getting ~2MOA groups(reloads) at 1 shot/3sec. The x39 can place a full mag at 1 shot/sec not only on paper but a 7MOA group standing unsupported which aint bad at all at that rate of fire. I use a scout mounted scope on the x39 for speed and a side mount on the 308. The x39 is good penetration though not near the 308.

If I had to tote just one into combat I would seriously be torn but likely go 308 and the 80 rounds it would depend on terrain in the end. Posted the targets from my last outing with the x39 Here if that would help any. Honestly though I think I lucked into a better than normal rifle.

Happy with results of both.

Now having said all that if money were no object I would get a good American made FAL for 2k+. Its a fine rifle.
Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#32 guiri

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 01:00 AM

If you'll indulge me... For the other stuff, remember that an axe is more useful than a hatchet, is more useful than a knife, the one piece of gear I always have in my go kit is a fiskars axe with the plastic handle.

If you really want to learn how to get along in the sticks with almost nothing, read "camping and woodcraft" by Horace Kephart. It's a turn of the century book that is a fantastic read, and much more interesting than the typical survival guide type books that are offered today. Something about how people wrote in that day that is much more readable than today's non fiction authors.


Funny but I have one of those. Got one in Sweden a few years ago and just couldn't resist it as i thought it would be super practical for just that particular reason :)

Book sounds interesting and good advice on the other stuff, thanks

#33 guiri

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 01:02 AM

Our IZ 132 rifles are priced @ $339.00


Thanks, I actually already looked at it as someone here mentioned it.

#34 guiri

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 01:08 AM

I got the 22lr Papoose takedown back in 93 (see left pic) as my first rifle. Got it doing cans at 100 yards with cheapy scope. I got my x39 Saiga for 'zombies' and such. And I got the old MN 91/30 for larger game and targets of 'density'. Next week I'll get my 12 guage pump and I'll be set for the SHTF situation.

Now a tent, hand-axe, and tarp,water tablets. etc.. make great sense. I agree with the HIDE and wait-it-out theory. Shelter and seclusion may be your friend. Posted Image


I think we might all be wishing for a zombie uprising :)

As for the axe, here it is although mine is in Fiskars orange. Very cool little axe http://www.google.co...xe"&sa=N&tab=wf

Also, sorry for posting so many replies in a row but I come here and there are all kinds of posts.

Again, thanks so far for all the replies and the great advice. I AM making a list :)

Edited by guiri, 03 November 2009 - 01:12 AM.


#35 FrustratedInCali

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 01:37 AM

There are many different ideas of what to have for a SHTF scenario.

The argument for a .308 rifle is very strong simply because of the stopping power and distance capability of the round.

The X39 is also good for its stopping power and its short to medium range performance.

The 5.56 is accurate but has been criticized many times for its lack of stopping power.

In a SHTF scenario, you need to consider issues beyond the round's capability. You need to consider the availability and supply of the ammo as you move about in your "survival" situation. The .308 and X39 although common, may not be as readily available as 5.56/.223 simply because of the large AR market. But what is more readily available and more common is the 12ga 2-3/4 round.

I have a Saiga .308, a Saiga .223, and a Saiga 12 ga.

Which one will I use for SHTF? At this time I'm still not sure.

Tha S308 is a good all around rifle but the mag is specific only to the Saiga.

The S223 uses a less powerful round but it is very common and when converted with the MSA AR mag adapter, will be able to fire using any readily available AR mag.

The S12 is limited in range and has a longer barrel (19in vs. 16in.). It also has a mag specific to it and it is limited in mag capacity to 12rnds or 20rnds when using a drum mag but uses a 12ga shells that are easily found in most households. Not only that but aside from shot and slug, you can get 12ga ammo in many other varieties with many different capabilities (ie incindiary rounds)

Right now, I'm leaning toward the S223 with the MSA AR mag adapter. Simply because in a middle of a fight, I can find additional ammo and a mag off of someone else ,either compadre or downed combatant, to insert in my gun more easily than either the S12 or S308. Thats my 2cents.

#36 guiri

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 02:11 AM

Well, Frustrated brother, I'm frustrated too with all the options and that's just narrowing it down to 3-4 platforms :)

Thanks

#37 kencrawleysc

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 04:26 AM

When the SHTF, the flavor, size, and shape of the S... will be relevant.


Shane's website should be required reading, because he recommends you HYST before the SHTF:
http://www.theplacew...sons/p/map.html

There is a lot more besides a good rifle.....

Edited by kencrawleysc, 03 November 2009 - 04:44 AM.


#38 Flashbang

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 09:47 AM

I went with .223 and have 6, 30rd Bulgy's. I went with .223 because for me my follow up shots are faster with the .223 and it is what works best for me. In my opinion I made my choice based on what I am most proficient with...and that is a reliable weapon in .223. My plan is to stay out of sight and spend more time surviving and less time getting involved in altercations (shoot and scoot for me). If for some insane reason I run through all 6 mags during an encounter at least I know I put up one hell of a fight.

If I were to do it over again, I would probably go with 7.62x39. The round is like a jack-of-all trades but master of none.

Edited by Flashbang, 03 November 2009 - 09:53 AM.

Some people are like Slinkies. Not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.

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#39 BpS12

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 10:22 AM

Hey Guiri,

Now that you let us know that you already have a pistol and a shotgun and will practice, things have changed a bit. Since you already have the Shotty, forget the S12 until you are ready to upgrade.

Buck has a good point, most any .22 will be of use, esp. if you look to Hide and Evade as Facepull mentions. A long barreled pistol may be handier than the Papoose, but not by much and the Papoose(or any carbine) will reach farther. I've seen one take down a deer at 50yrds.

So that puts you at 4 guns already, each with different ammo. Arik lays out the pros and cons very well and I'd say the .308 is out, due to weight, cost of gun/ammo. Unless you have your heart set on it, in which case, this is all moot. And you can always upgrade later.

So that leaves the x39 and .223. At this point it is almost a personal choice.

I prefer the x39 for all the reasons Arik listed. I've used the .223 and didn't care for it. If you're carrying a .22 already, why carry a high powered one. My next weapon will be a x39 with 20" barrel. Besides, the x39 is the ammo of choice for most survivalist, which means you are more likely to pick it up from abandoned caches/corpses(you wont be the only one in the hills/mountains) or trade for it if need be.

Just my thoughts,
Mikel
"Faith is OF the Individual, Religion is FOR the Community. Unfortunately, Religion OFTEN tramples over Faith."
"Ignorance is simply not knowing. Stupidity is knowing and choosing not to act accordingly."
"Look back ONLY to learn, NEVER to regret."
"From his weapons away, No one should ever stir one step upon the field. For no one knows, when need might have, of a sudden, a man of his weapon." Odin from the Havamal

#40 superA

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 10:27 AM

If I ever have to walk it out, I would get a game cart for sure to haul mostly food but also supplies, including guns and ammo. Regardless, I will be carrying very few rounds for SD or hunting big game. Most of that will go towards 22lr. I am still trying to figure out if the 12 gauge is worth it because of the extra weight of the shells as well as an extra rifle.

#41 BpS12

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 10:38 AM

Facepull,
"Im thinking of using some type of cart system that i can roll behind me that can carry maybe 200 pounds of supplies."


Have you checked out some of the game drags on the hunting sites? Most of them are wheeled(single/double) and are foldable for storage.
"Faith is OF the Individual, Religion is FOR the Community. Unfortunately, Religion OFTEN tramples over Faith."
"Ignorance is simply not knowing. Stupidity is knowing and choosing not to act accordingly."
"Look back ONLY to learn, NEVER to regret."
"From his weapons away, No one should ever stir one step upon the field. For no one knows, when need might have, of a sudden, a man of his weapon." Odin from the Havamal

#42 facepull

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 10:58 AM

Facepull,
"Im thinking of using some type of cart system that i can roll behind me that can carry maybe 200 pounds of supplies."


Have you checked out some of the game drags on the hunting sites? Most of them are wheeled(single/double) and are foldable for storage.

i have looked at cabelas and they are on my possibles list. they make the most sense

#43 AARguy

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 01:49 PM

I'm a new gun owner, but an old Soldier. I was raised in NYC so I didn't learn about guns as a kid, never went out varmint shooting, and have never been hunting. I wasn't any Special Forces Rambo, but spent a long time as a grunt from practicing in Europe and Panama to more realistic exercises in Iraq. I live in the burbs, but if SHTF, I can be in some pretty isolated boonies in less than two hours. With that in mind, I have decided on the following "doomsday" arsenal:
- "Loaded" M1A - The Army says the 7.62x51 round has a maximum effrective range of 1100 meters. That is soley because that is the maximum burnout range for a tracer and the maximum engagement range for the basic eyeball. Add a scope and you you can do even better. The best way to eliminate any THREAT is to detect, identify and engage it a range beyond the envelope of his own weapon. Chances are good with 7.62x51 in the chamber, you can do that. Also, NATO standard ammunition should be plentiful in the worst of times. Our military uses it and should be available more than round types that are strictly used by civilians. Sure, the rounds are heavier and bulkier than 5.56mm, but I'm not going to be going on LRRP's (Long Range Reconaissance Patrols) or doing search and destroy Ramboistics. I'm going to be defending a static position within which my friends and family reside. As far as 5.56mm (223) is concerned, for the aforementioned reason the weight is not an issue. And the Army tells me the max effective range of an M16 is 440 meters and 660 meters for an M4. M1A wins.
- Saiga 308 - backup for the M1A. Still has greater range than 5.56mm launchers. Lighter and more manueverable if you don't discourage the bad guys with the M1A and they get closer. The scope, bipod, etc., is for the M1A. The Saiga 308 is for a higher desperation factor. And as a backup, its reliability gives one an added comfort factor. Its nice to know its there. A quick word about bells and whistles: In Iraq you could always spot the REMF's. They not only had spotless uniforms, but had scopes, lights, lasers, rangefinders, night vision, searchlights and hood ornaments on their rifles. The "real deal" guys who were covered in trail dust, looked like raccoons from their goggles and actually DEPENDED on their weapons, had nothing but a CCO (Close Combat Optic) on their weapons. They didn't want anything telling the bad guys where they were like lights or lasers that could be traced back to the source.
- 12 ga - I have a Mossberg 930 semi-auto. The sound of cocking a pump may scare away some bad guys, but I'd rather skip the part that gives away my position after each trigger pull. If the bad guys get close enough for a shotgun to be useful, you're probably in deep kim-chee anyway though. 12 ga is also another standard military round that should remain available even if SHTF.
- Handguns? Well, whatever you want is fine. In a SHTF scenario, they are only for fighting your way to your long guns anyway.

Oh yeah... if the chaos is peaceful, there's plenty of capability here to put fresh meat on the table. Just remember to not forget the components and accoutrements to reload your own.

#44 Rhodes1968

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 02:54 PM

Good points all AARguy. Ever attended an Appleseed? We never seem to have enough instructors with the project growing so rapidly. Think you would enjoy it greatly. Appleseed Project

One of the things a lot of people miss is that the lighter rifles do not take well to a sling to steady the shot due to stress on the barrel. Even standing a good tight Hasty sling will reduce group size 20% or more and knelling or prone with the Loop also greatly increases accuracy, not to mention weapon retention if you were knocked down or had to move quickly. Heavier rifles like M1A, Garand, Saiga etc don't suffer this problem.

In any hostile environment the "fire only one shot" rule just goes hand in hand with your point of not making unnecessary noise although I would have to go with the Saiga 12 over the Moss but that's just me wanting as much ammo loaded in a mag as possible.
Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#45 guiri

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 04:16 PM

Let me try to reply to all in one e mail so I don’t post too many times.

First kencrawleysc, thanks for the link. I’m in nawt cackelackie by the way.

“When the SHTF, the flavor, size, and shape of the S... will be relevant” You are right about this but since I don’t know the flavor beforehand and this is all meant to be dealt with, with ONE weapon, that’s why I’m here. Yes, I know I can buy bunches of stuff but ultimately, if there’s S going on outside your cabin or whatever and you have to run outside, you’re NOT going to reach for a cart loaded with 4 guns, you will take one gun and your backpack or whatever. Again, I’m assuming that the S or zombies will be upon you without warning. Hell, if you know they’re coming, you wouldn’t be there anyway.

BpS12, I actually don’t have the revolver or the shotgun but they’re in the planning stage too. Right now, I am gunless :)

AARguy, thanks for the good write up :)

Rhodes, could you elaborate on this please “One of the things a lot of people miss is that the lighter rifles do not take well to a sling to steady the shot due to stress on the barrel”

Thanks all

George

#46 BKLYN_C

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 06:23 PM

No matter what rifle you choose for the SHTF, it will be worthless stick without ammunition. Whatever caliber it is, make sure you have stock pile of ammo.
On the other hand, in such situation, any domestically produces ammunition will be much easier to get, yet the flow of commi calibers 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 will stop way before the actual SHTF

#47 renegadebuck

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 08:24 PM

No matter what rifle you choose for the SHTF, it will be worthless stick without ammunition. Whatever caliber it is, make sure you have stock pile of ammo.
On the other hand, in such situation, any domestically produces ammunition will be much easier to get, yet the flow of commi calibers 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 will stop way before the actual SHTF



The flow of commie ammo may or may not stop. A SHTF will not surprise the Government. Civilian ammo sources will also dry up. Depending on the longevity, the only "new" ammo will be comblock smuggled in from the south or north. Without dangerous confrontations with military or paramilitary forces, domestic ammo will more than likely be what is more difficult to get. If other revolutions are any guide, the commies will be more than willing to supply the rebel forces as they are the new "money whores". Since Wolf and/or Barnaul produces all the calibers we have talked about, I really don't see ammo a long range problem. It will be for the first year, after that, the smuggling lines will be opened and it will be just a matter of having trade goods.
My BOB is in the safe packed with a Colt Stagecoach .22 and 2k rounds, MRE's, a sheathed Gerber and sharping tools along with a Gerber multitool. Other stuff is at the ready in the shop. Most ammo is on strippers or in mags in ammo cans, not including the buried "spam cans" of ammo to renew supplies if needed. I have a freezer in a concrete vault buried with ammo in waterproof cans for rounds of 9mm .45, .223, .308, 12ga, and .22 that don't come in spam cans. I will leave my location only if necessary as I have a fresh water spring, woods and game, and a defenceable position. Any member that has visited my home knows I'm about as hidden as you can get within 50 miles of a zombie metropolis.

#48 KrisFox

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 08:53 PM

Well at last count the following calibers work in my MGI.

5.56/223
5.45x39
6.8Spc
6.5Grendel
5.7
.22LR
7.62x39
.45ACP

I use dedicated barrels for each caliber, 5.56, x39, and .45ACP bolts, AR, AK-47, and M3 grease gun magwells, and six different types of mags in combination allow me to shoot each caliber.

Once I get a AK-74 magwell I'll be using 5.45x39 mags.

I'm also thinking 10mm in the grease gun mags might be fun.

338spectre and 50 Beowolf are also on the list as well as a 50BMG upper.

Average cost per caliber is under $500 but everything is top quality chrome lined, mil-spec or better parts.
Yes it's a $250 shotgun. No, I paid $550 for it. Yes, I did a lot of work to it. Sure, I can build you one just like it for $1500.

#49 guiri

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 09:17 PM

Most ammo is on strippers or in mags in ammo cans, not including the buried "spam cans" of ammo to renew supplies if needed. I have a freezer in a concrete vault buried with ammo in waterproof cans for rounds of 9mm .45, .223, .308, 12ga, and .22 that don't come in spam cans. I will leave my location only if necessary as I have a fresh water spring, woods and game, and a defenceable position. Any member that has visited my home knows I'm about as hidden as you can get within 50 miles of a zombie metropolis.



Holy crap brother buck, can we come and stay with you? I like your setup but I have to admit, the fact that you've got a whole bunch of strippers holding on to your ammo is part of the reason I want to come :)

#50 guiri

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 09:21 PM

KrisFox, can we see this uberrifle please or rather, can I?

What the hell kinda of beast can take .22 and 50BMG? Seriously...

George

#51 renegadebuck

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 11:33 PM

Most ammo is on strippers or in mags in ammo cans, not including the buried "spam cans" of ammo to renew supplies if needed. I have a freezer in a concrete vault buried with ammo in waterproof cans for rounds of 9mm .45, .223, .308, 12ga, and .22 that don't come in spam cans. I will leave my location only if necessary as I have a fresh water spring, woods and game, and a defenceable position. Any member that has visited my home knows I'm about as hidden as you can get within 50 miles of a zombie metropolis.



Holy crap brother buck, can we come and stay with you? I like your setup but I have to admit, the fact that you've got a whole bunch of strippers holding on to your ammo is part of the reason I want to come :)



Better let me know ahead of time. The field and woods are trapped, just not set yet. Once it really starts, you will have to learn to say no, or fall. (Getting the strippers is easy. Around here[Charlotte area] all the clubs are owned by MC clubs, Just know somebody that knows somebody....)

#52 guiri

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 12:16 AM

You are in the Charlotte area? As in NC? Cool, so am I! Ha, I know where I'm heading then. I'll bring my five dogs. One of them is the size of a small horse, hehehe. Hell, he even looks like one too.

#53 Rhodes1968

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 12:36 AM

Let me try to reply to all in one e mail so I don’t post too many times.

First kencrawleysc, thanks for the link. I’m in nawt cackelackie by the way.

“When the SHTF, the flavor, size, and shape of the S... will be relevant” You are right about this but since I don’t know the flavor beforehand and this is all meant to be dealt with, with ONE weapon, that’s why I’m here. Yes, I know I can buy bunches of stuff but ultimately, if there’s S going on outside your cabin or whatever and you have to run outside, you’re NOT going to reach for a cart loaded with 4 guns, you will take one gun and your backpack or whatever. Again, I’m assuming that the S or zombies will be upon you without warning. Hell, if you know they’re coming, you wouldn’t be there anyway.

BpS12, I actually don’t have the revolver or the shotgun but they’re in the planning stage too. Right now, I am gunless :)

AARguy, thanks for the good write up :)

Rhodes, could you elaborate on this please “One of the things a lot of people miss is that the lighter rifles do not take well to a sling to steady the shot due to stress on the barrel”

Thanks all

George


Sure be glad to, before the advent of the AR the GI sling was the most important shooting aid a soldier owned outside his skill. Depending on the stance Standing uses what is called a Hasty sling where the sling stabilizes the rifle by being pulled tight across the chest around the support arm forming a three point support that will increase accuracy by 20% or there about. Kneeling and Prone use what is called a Loop sling where the sling is looped around the bicep of the support arm again forming a three point stabilizing platform increasing accuracy only slightly less than the Hasty when standing.

Of course Natural Point of Aim (NPOA) was and still is taught and truly separates the good from the great shooters. But I digress.

When the M16 was introduced they found the stress on the rifle from the sling was pulling the POI off considerably due to the lightweight materials of its make up. So they stopped teaching soldiers how to use a sling. The heavier rifles, well really everything but the AR and even then I think it still helps, still benefit greatly from these techniques. You can find information on this by just searching for Hasty and Loop sling through Google. I have an old WW2 Army training film going into great depth on this and other skills with the Garand but Appleseed is the best way to learn them.

Appleseed Project teaches shooters how to use this and other solid basic marksmanship methods. I cant stress highly enough the benefit a person that leaves the ego at home will receive from their instruction.
Appleseed Project Home Page

Edited by Rhodes1968, 04 November 2009 - 12:39 AM.

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#54 guiri

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 01:09 AM

So, isn't there another point on the gun you can attach a sling? I mean, a sling IS a good thing and a good way to carry a gun, right?

#55 AARguy

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 05:33 AM

Wow. I was a plain vanilla grunt and never had anyone address the subject of stabilizing anything with the sling. In fact, we either removed or taped down the sling... it makes a LOT of noise banging around and noise can be hazardous to your health. A three point sling with a CCO in MOUT/MOBUA environments can decrease reaction time (a GOOD thing) but doesn't address accuracy per se. I've seen all those Hollywood SWAT guys wrap the sling in various ways, but I never saw anyone in Desert Storm or OIF have the time (or the desire) to do such a thing.

#56 guiri

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 06:03 AM

I kinda understood half of what you just said :)

#57 renegadebuck

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 08:20 AM

Wow. I was a plain vanilla grunt and never had anyone address the subject of stabilizing anything with the sling. In fact, we either removed or taped down the sling... it makes a LOT of noise banging around and noise can be hazardous to your health. A three point sling with a CCO in MOUT/MOBUA environments can decrease reaction time (a GOOD thing) but doesn't address accuracy per se. I've seen all those Hollywood SWAT guys wrap the sling in various ways, but I never saw anyone in Desert Storm or OIF have the time (or the desire) to do such a thing.



Different situation, warfare, equipment. During the big wars, the objective was open warfare, not close quarters. Where 300yd shots were the norm, not the exception, the enemy was well defined, being a combatant in regular clothing constituted a spy and justified being shot on capture. If the enemy was in enough strength and took over a block, you bombed 8, just to be sure you got them all.

#58 renegadebuck

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 08:26 AM

You are in the Charlotte area? As in NC? Cool, so am I! Ha, I know where I'm heading then. I'll bring my five dogs. One of them is the size of a small horse, hehehe. Hell, he even looks like one too.



I have a 100 yd range and working on a 200. Have a 20 yard pistol range too. Come on out after deer season and shoot. Don't want to mess up the next years food supply. :devil: If you are still wondering which or what gun to buy then, bring some ammo of the guns you want to shoot and you can shoot mine as much as you want, then make a decision.

#59 guiri

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 04:42 PM

I have a 100 yd range and working on a 200. Have a 20 yard pistol range too. Come on out after deer season and shoot. Don't want to mess up the next years food supply. :devil: If you are still wondering which or what gun to buy then, bring some ammo of the guns you want to shoot and you can shoot mine as much as you want, then make a decision.


Hell, I was hoping you'd say that. I'd be more than happy to bring out the ammo or pay you for it. What guns do you have that fits my criteria that I could test drive?

Roughly when is deer season over and are you going to the Metrolina Expo in December?

I had my truck repoed some time ago but if I can get someone to ride with, I thought I'd go there and start asking questions and squeezing the guns a little.
No worries, when I get my money in around 6 months or less hopefully, I"ll also get my truck back. Big ol' 4x Excursion with a V10. Just the ticket for zombie squashing.

#60 Rhodes1968

Rhodes1968

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 06:34 PM

Wow. I was a plain vanilla grunt and never had anyone address the subject of stabilizing anything with the sling. In fact, we either removed or taped down the sling... it makes a LOT of noise banging around and noise can be hazardous to your health. A three point sling with a CCO in MOUT/MOBUA environments can decrease reaction time (a GOOD thing) but doesn't address accuracy per se. I've seen all those Hollywood SWAT guys wrap the sling in various ways, but I never saw anyone in Desert Storm or OIF have the time (or the desire) to do such a thing.


They just stopped using them when Stoner's design was adopted. As for being noisy well that would depend on how the sling was designed, mine dont make any noise at all. Unless you are using one of Stoner's rifles you miss a lot not using it. Ive even seen guys use it with ARs but it cant be nearly as tight as it would be with a Garand. Almost everything about marksmanship is about stabilizing that rifle and making the shot. That doesnt mean there are not times when speed is more important than shot placement. If you cant effectively fight the 300 yard war it leaves a very noticeable hole in tactics which I think in our case very important.
Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.




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