Jump to content

5.56/.223 vs 7.62x39 vs .308 for doomsday scenarios?


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 116
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Guiri,   If you not going take the time to practice, you WILL need more ammo, no matter what rifle you carry. The .308 is a Battle Rifle(not a Sniper Rifle) but without practice, you loose the dista

Yes they are 12G. And you can do the same to any Saiga regardless of caliber.   Atlantic Firearms, and other vendors as well, have the Saiga 7.62x39 for about $360 +/-   Reliability of any Saiga

So Rhodes, where do you attach the sling these days?

 

Hmm ok . Both Saigas are easy the Infusion hand guard already has a place as well as the Nato stock. TheT6 also has provisions. I only use surplus GI-M14 canvas slings nothing fancy. The target rifles of course needed the hardware added but thats no big deal. Same thing on the Mosin.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Appleseed Project teaches shooters how to use this and other solid basic marksmanship methods. I cant stress highly enough the benefit a person that leaves the ego at home will receive from their instruction.

Appleseed Project Home Page

 

I second what he said. An Appleseed is the best $70 anyone can ever spend on rifle training.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Appleseed Project teaches shooters how to use this and other solid basic marksmanship methods. I cant stress highly enough the benefit a person that leaves the ego at home will receive from their instruction.

Appleseed Project Home Page

 

I second what he said. An Appleseed is the best $70 anyone can ever spend on rifle training.

 

You got that right. It had been 33 tears since I went through basic marksmanship with Uncle and I desperately needed the refresher course. In truth they teach a bit more than Uncle did in basic.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a 100 yd range and working on a 200. Have a 20 yard pistol range too. Come on out after deer season and shoot. Don't want to mess up the next years food supply. :devil: If you are still wondering which or what gun to buy then, bring some ammo of the guns you want to shoot and you can shoot mine as much as you want, then make a decision.

 

Hell, I was hoping you'd say that. I'd be more than happy to bring out the ammo or pay you for it. What guns do you have that fits my criteria that I could test drive?

 

Roughly when is deer season over and are you going to the Metrolina Expo in December?

 

I had my truck repoed some time ago but if I can get someone to ride with, I thought I'd go there and start asking questions and squeezing the guns a little.

No worries, when I get my money in around 6 months or less hopefully, I"ll also get my truck back. Big ol' 4x Excursion with a V10. Just the ticket for zombie squashing.

 

 

As far as which gun I have that meets your needs, pretty much name it(other than Saiga 12, and I'm working on that), but I have 12 ga guns. Most other pistol and rifle calibers are covered though. Deer season ends the first week of Jan. I'll probably be at the Metro, I haven't missed one in a while, but you never know. Depends on the funds at the time.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool, I won't have money before then anyway so that's plenty of time. Do you want to hook up at the Metro as in saying hi or maybe giving me a few pointers? I'll prolly be there with a friend since I Don't have a ride right now.

 

As for the Saiga 12 ga, I'm not all that interested in it, I came here mainly for questions about the 308.

 

Once I get money I'd love to come and visit and have a test shoot to see what suits me the best. We'll shoot some and I'll take you out for dinner or lunch or whatever. How's that sound?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool, I won't have money before then anyway so that's plenty of time. Do you want to hook up at the Metro as in saying hi or maybe giving me a few pointers? I'll prolly be there with a friend since I Don't have a ride right now.

 

As for the Saiga 12 ga, I'm not all that interested in it, I came here mainly for questions about the 308.

 

Once I get money I'd love to come and visit and have a test shoot to see what suits me the best. We'll shoot some and I'll take you out for dinner or lunch or whatever. How's that sound?

 

 

 

You, as anyone else on this forum that would like to, are always welcome to come and shoot. I do a lot of it so the more the merrier. Just let me know. As far as the Metro, we'll see as it gets closer. I work for myself and the economy has and is taking a big toll. I'll be glad to help you anyway I can though.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool, I appreciate the offer and like you, I hope to go to the metro but not sure either. I guess when I find out, I'll let you know and if you're going, maybe we can get together 'cause I sure will need the advice of someone impartial, not necessary someone selling the guns :)

 

Meanwhile, in the spirit of your kindness, let me extend some of my services to the people here. I do graphics and webdesign so if you guys have any problems like you need to crop, resize, lighten pictures or something, just let me know.

 

Also, I've started working with a guy that builds custom computers but he only builds very high end systems. However, if someone's in the market for one, I can also get you a bit of a discount from him. Just FYI, he built my latest workstation.

 

George

Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, come to think of it, I've seen some of the sites of the smaller dealers and they really need help. If someone here wants to have their sites redesigned and trade for guns, let me know. I know this post doesn't go against any rules but if it does, mods, either let me know and I'll remove it or feel free to do so.

 

Thanks

 

GEorge

Link to post
Share on other sites

I third the Appleseed recommendation. No matter what rifle you chose to purchase, $70 for two full days of high quality instruction is absolutely the first "accesory" to add. This course will give you all the basic tools to operate you rifle safely and effictively. Build on this knowledge with practice and you will become a better shot no matter your how much experience a person has. You can trick your rifle out afterwards if you still think you need to.

 

I've shot rifles since I was a young and didn't think I would get too much out of it... Maybe a few tips. Boy was I wrong and my marksmansip has improved greatly. I wish Appleseed would have been around when I first started out.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A good - ie. properly trained and experienced - rifleman can get results from a rifle that is only adequate.

 

Can't stress training and regular practice enough!

 

As far as a rifle choice for bad times, mine's a Saiga .308.

 

My plan is to hunker down and stay out of sight. I have plenty of ammo and mags for my S308s (2 16s and a Saigunov).

I prefer the range and penetration that .308 give me based on experience while downrange. I have ranged 360 degrees around the place and have ranging stakes in place. Best to engage where you out-range the opponent - which is what the Saigunov and Remington 700 are intended to do.

 

If I had to BO, I'd take one of the 16s and 7 mags, the lovely wife would take the other with mags and the boy would take an AK with 7 mags. Between us we'd carry a Marlin Papoose, a Ruger MKII and a 10/22 folder. Sidearms Glock 21s with 4 mags and G30s for the wife and I. Time permitting, the other weapons would be disabled and concealed to be recovered upon return.

 

We have a predetermined rally point with friends, should the need arise. Additional weapons, mags, ammo and other supplies are prepositioned there.

 

-Ulf

Link to post
Share on other sites

Needs and weights vary based on situation and perceived need.

 

Patrolling your immediate AO calls for armor, mags and water.

 

Operating from a vehicle gives you more flexibility - you can store/carry more in the vehicle and keep the basics on you - armor, mags and water. Should the vehicle be knocked out or runout of fuel, you're on foot.

 

On foot - humping a ruck - you need to balance the weight of ALL your gear (weapons, armor, mags, water and ruck) and try to pack as completely as possible.

 

GIs and most backpackers are WAY overloaded. Our packs weigh in at 35lbs (give or take) and provide food for 4 days, shelter materials, medical needs and additional ammo. For an extended walkabout, food would be foraged and water filtered as needed.

 

-Ulf

Link to post
Share on other sites

You can always discard weight if need arises but you cant get what you don't have.

 

I keep a lightweight BoB, more of an emergency "get home/travel" bag really, that only contains 180 rounds in mags for my folding kel-tec 40, glock, and three days bare minimum supplies. That's as far as Im taking the BoB concept. There is a lot of sense in keeping some things off-site but that's as much as should be said here. If it gets to the point that heading for the hills is called for well there will be warning if not well I pity the fool if you know what I mean.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Whoever really wants some shtf, is stupid if they think it will be fun. A lot of guys up here talk tough but I bet they never had any extreme violent experiences before. I have and unless you are 1% of the male population that is built for violence it will not be fun.

Edited by cbang
Link to post
Share on other sites

Whoever really wants some shtf, is stupid if they think it will be fun. A lot of guys up here talk tough but I bet they never had any extreme violent experiences before. I have and unless you are 1% of the male population that is built for violence it will not be fun.

 

 

I don't care who you are, it won't be fun long! There's nothing fun about fighting for your life 24/7-365! It won't be like the pioneer days, Red Dawn, or anything else you can readily imagine. It all depends on where the military goes. If it splits or sides with the people, there's a light at the end of the tunnel and you can walk toward it. If they side against the people, stay away from the light!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Screw that! I don't wear a helmet for when I don't crash, it's there for when I do. I don't want it, I just want a gun IF it happens, at least I won't feel like I got caught with my sausage in the drawer which would be the case if I got stuck holding a stick rather than something that goes bang!

 

There may be people that think they want it, that's their business, not me.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ha, I just looked it up. Cool little thing. I was actually looking at a Kel tec a few months ago from a review that I saw on youtube but then, reliability wasn't the best thing so I thought I'd look around. I like the SU-16-A :)

 

The only problem I ve ever had in several hundred rounds is it got dirty and I had to clean it. No failure just dirty.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Never had the pleasure of firing that one thought about getting it but was primarily looking for something that shared ammo and get small when stored. The Sub2K handles +P well and with a laser is just deadly at 50 yards and effective at 100 with sights which is fine as I wanted something that exceeded pistol range. 223 would certainly be a nice little surprise to pull out of a backpack, good luck on it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

One 10rnd mag of 00 buckshot = 90-120, roughly .30 rnds(9-12/shell). Thats 3-4 30rnd mags of ANYTHING else. Think about it, that's 9-12 .30 rnds, going down range, with EACH pull of the trigger. At 50yds, you'll have roughly a 50" spread +/-. You WILL hit something with at least a few of those .30 pellets. Esp. if you aim low center mass. Beyond 30-50yrds, switch to slugs, esp. the 3" Magnums. Unless you're a "natural", you'll likely not be much good beyond 100 or so yards anyway, at least not w/o practice.

 

Mikel

 

Mikel, how much killing power do the 00 buck have at 50 yards?

 

Also, can you bullpup a 308 and are there any pics of it? THAT would be interesting

 

Thanks

 

George

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm always amused by the "what's the best gun/caliber for SHTF?" question and the resulting shotgun, rifle, 308, 7.62x39, 223, etc discussions that follow. Its kind of like asking "what's the best utensil for dinner?" with hardcore promoters of spoons fighting it out with knife afficionados and fork lovers. Its really not that simple. I don't believe that any one weapon provides total defense, "all your eggs in one basket" reliability, or appropriate steel on target effectiveness for all contingencies any more than I believe any one utensil can meet all your needs for consuming soup, slicing up a steak, or moving a piece of brisket to your mouth at mealtime.

 

If you only have enough cash for a good fork right now, have a plan for the spoon and fork.

 

I started with a pistol, since it was a gift. It turned out to be a Beretta 96D (40 S&W). Pistols are good desperation pieces in SHTF and are good for fighting yuour way to your long gun. Due to cost, my next choice was a shotgun. My only experience with weapond was in the Army and I knew nothing about shotguns, just M16's, M14's, Berettas, Colt 45's, and heavier things. My dealer talked me into a Mossberg 930 SPX. It turned out to be a great weapon with 8 ready round capacity, can shoot any type of round I want without any choke changes, semi-auto, built-in Picatinny rail and more. Its a LOT of firepower, real fast, when the threat is up close and personal. It was pure luck that I just happened to pick this shotgun, later designated as "Shotgun of the Year" by the NRA.

 

But the Army also taught me that the best place to eliminate a threat was way outside the range of the enemy's own weapon. That generally means 308. So rather than buy what I could afford, I saved up until I could afford what I needed. That meant an M1A. Its heavy, its expensive, needs intensive maintenance, and, when scoped, can neutralize just about any bad guy you'll encounter long before he even knows you are there. NOTE: I don't buy bolt action owners who say sem-auto rifles are inherently less accurate. Reacquiring the target (which you have probably lost since it moved while you were chambering the next round and not sighting in on it), starting all over with BRASS (Breathe, Relax, Aim, take up the Slack, and Squeeze) and, well, you understand... just doesn't get it if the target is moving, shooting and trying HIS best to kill YOU.

 

Now, for walking around and checking the perimeter, something lighter and more compact is required. That's why I got a Saiga 30 short barrel. Close or far away, the bad guys are in trouble. Its reliability can't be beat, although you won't be driving nails at a half mile. The 308 doesn't suffer from the limited range of 5.56, nor does it have the tumbling problem we encountered in Iraq. Those problems led the Army to experiment with the bigger 6.5mm round, but that was finally rejected due to the expense of introducing and managing a whole new round into the Army inventory. I rejected 5.56 for the same reasons. 308 is fine. It may be heavier, but I don't think I'll be going on any LRRP's (Long Range Reconaissance Patrols) so its ok. Its strictly for defense.

 

I would also suggest that 308 (7.62x51) will always be plentiful since the US military uses it. 7.62x39 enjoys that advantage in many parts of the world, but not here; it was designed for Soviet use and is popular with Al Queda, but is not standard in US forces. NOTE: 40 S&W (10mm) was developed for the FBI as a stronger alternative to its little sister 9mm and, with its popularity in police forces, is another round which should always be available.

 

I also got a GSG-5 (it's an MP-5 lookalike in .22 LR) for fun, to practice marksmanship with cheap ammo, and, if needed, to provide small game meat for the table.

 

So this whole "what's the best SHTF weapon" controversy continues to amuse me. I recommend that you save up and buy the best combination for your needs rather than trying to find one thing that can serve as a TV, a refrigerator, and serve you breakfast in bed all-in-one. Better to take your time and get it right than sacrifice what is best. If SHTF, depending on second best is NOT a good plan.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, you're right and although I HAVE some money coming up (enough to buy whatever I want) it's also a matter of how much I want to spend. No, I don't think we'll have a shtf situation but lately, I've gotten a bit leery about things, especially since Osama got elected but maybe that's just me.

 

You're also right about the fork spoon thing but my goal here was to get people's opinions rather than having them decide for me. I can make up my mind just find but I wanted to hear what people thought and the pros and cons.

 

I'm partial to bigger calibers for the obvious reasons and I do plan on getting a shotgun and a pistol/revolver too but my main things was that IF, shtf and I have to run out of the house and I can only grab one gun, what should it be.

 

How reliable would a saiga shotgun be compared to say a mossberg pump or something?

 

George

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...