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AOW or SBR?


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#1 Moe Zambeak

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 08:20 PM

Looks like perfect timing for this section!

I'm thinking about getting one of the Draco AK pistols. Part of the attraction is getting a stamp for it and throwing a stock on it. I'm a little confused on if this would make it an AOW or an SBR.

I was under the assumption that putting a stock on a weapon maufactured as a pistol originaly would make it an AOW.

Here is the original thread
where people are talking about the pistol, and there is even a picture of one with a Ace folder on it (like I would want to do if I buy one).

Thanks for the help!

Edited by Moe Zambeak, 04 November 2009 - 08:20 PM.

The S12K is an AK-47 frame modified to fire shotgun shells in a semi-automatic fashion.


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#2 nalioth

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 12:32 AM

If you put a stock on it, it's an SBR. SBRs can have VFGs.

If you ONLY put a VFG on it, it's an AOW. You can never put a stock on an AOW (unless you spend another $200)

That picture you refer to (and the other similar pictures) are not pictures of pistols, but of SBRs.

Edited by nalioth, 05 November 2009 - 12:33 AM.

"Tactical" is a mindset, not an equipment list.

#3 Moe Zambeak

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 02:02 AM

Thanls. So the best route would be to put a stock on it first, then just add the grip later?

The S12K is an AK-47 frame modified to fire shotgun shells in a semi-automatic fashion.


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#4 nalioth

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 02:16 AM

Thanls. So the best route would be to put a stock on it first, then just add the grip later?

To put the stock on, you'll need the SBR tax stamp. After you get the tax stamp, you can put whatever mall-ninja-toys you want on it (unless one of the toys is a suppressor [that's another stamp]).

If you get the AOW stamp first (for just the VFG), you'll end up paying $400 (for two tax stamps) to change it over to a SBR.

Edited by nalioth, 05 November 2009 - 02:17 AM.

"Tactical" is a mindset, not an equipment list.

#5 thehopping1

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 02:20 AM

If you get the AOW stamp first (for just the VFG), you'll end up paying $400 (for two tax stamps) to change it over to a SBR.

Depending on where you live I suppose? Here in AZ an AOW stamp is $5. Or is that just for domestic firearms?
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#6 nalioth

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 02:25 AM



If you get the AOW stamp first (for just the VFG), you'll end up paying $400 (for two tax stamps) to change it over to a SBR.

Depending on where you live I suppose? Here in AZ an AOW stamp is $5. Or is that just for domestic firearms?

No sir.

It costs $200 to make any NFA weapon.

It's only $5 to transfer an AOW.

Do you think a class 3 manufacturer is gonna screw on a VFG on your personal pistol for you for nothing (essentially manufacturing an NFA weapon), just so you can get a $5 transfer?

In my neck of the woods, it's cheaper to pay the guv the $200 'making tax' and do it yourself.

Edited by nalioth, 05 November 2009 - 02:29 AM.

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"Tactical" is a mindset, not an equipment list.

#7 thehopping1

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 02:33 AM

Ahhh yes, transfer an AOW. It is all making sense now. One of my friends just got a Mossberg Cruiser and is putting a 10" barrel kit on it and was talking crap because I have to spend $200 on a stamp if I want a short barrel on my S12 and he only had to spend $5 on his. Thanks for clearing that up Nalioth.
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#8 Moe Zambeak

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 02:59 AM

I wouldn't think that a VFG is "mall ninja", just something to help me from shooting an extra hole in my hand.

The S12K is an AK-47 frame modified to fire shotgun shells in a semi-automatic fashion.


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#9 GySgt New River

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 01:13 PM

If you showed up at your FFL/SOT with the weapon and had the VFG mailed to his office, to avoid contructive intent issues, he shouldn't charge you all that much to attach and registar it as a AOW.

His fee, I'm gunna assume, $50 plus the cost of the VFG, plus the $5 AOW trans fee isnt that bad....personally I'd just go the SBR route instead of pistol to AOW to SBR because you can always add a VFG to a rifle/SBR for no cost and cut out the BS run around with waiting to RE-registar with the ATF.

Go from pistol to SBR = $200 Form 1 ATF fee, engraving the receiver $50(assumed), cost of stock.<<---- I'd go this personally.
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#10 DistalRadius

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 05:48 PM

I got a Remington 870 AOW as my 1st NFA weapon. At the time the $200 seemed a bit much. Now I'm about to re-register it as an SBR because guns need stocks. The things just no fun to shoot not to mention inaccurate as hell. Seriously, go SBR or don't waste your time.
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#11 Moe Zambeak

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 06:07 PM

Thanks for the replies!

SBR it is! ...Or will be.

The S12K is an AK-47 frame modified to fire shotgun shells in a semi-automatic fashion.


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#12 -Shooter-

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 07:17 PM

Go from pistol to SBR = $200 Form 1 ATF fee, engraving the receiver $50(assumed), cost of stock.<<---- I'd go this personally.


That's exactly what I plan on doing. Running a shorty upper as a AR pistol, while going through the process to get the lower SBR'd.

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#13 Frank Rizzo

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 12:07 AM

I got a Remington 870 AOW as my 1st NFA weapon. At the time the $200 seemed a bit much. Now I'm about to re-register it as an SBR because guns need stocks. The things just no fun to shoot not to mention inaccurate as hell. Seriously, go SBR or don't waste your time.

Youre gonna SBR a shotgun? Interesting!
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#14 -Shooter-

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 03:25 AM


I got a Remington 870 AOW as my 1st NFA weapon. At the time the $200 seemed a bit much. Now I'm about to re-register it as an SBR because guns need stocks. The things just no fun to shoot not to mention inaccurate as hell. Seriously, go SBR or don't waste your time.

Youre gonna SBR a shotgun? Interesting!


I see what you did there. :D

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#15 Corbin

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 03:13 AM

I'd love to SBR a Draco, but unfortunately MI doesn't yet allow for SBR, but they do allow AOW. Still, I'm not sure I'd want to spend $200 just to put a Vert grip on it. It might feel nice to hold, but not worth it to me I don't think.


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#16 Shandlanos

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 09:52 PM

I'd love to SBR a Draco, but unfortunately MI doesn't yet allow for SBR, but they do allow AOW. Still, I'm not sure I'd want to spend $200 just to put a Vert grip on it. It might feel nice to hold, but not worth it to me I don't think.


Corbin


You could probably get it done for less than that, if you know a friendly manufacturer; they can "manufacture" the pistol as an AOW, do the engraving, and transfer the weapon back to you. FFL in my area does similar stuff for $75 plus the transfer tax.
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#17 rightwingnut

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 03:57 AM

there are two reasons to Make AOW rather than SBS:

1. you want to be able to arbitrarily throw it in your trunk & do interstate travel w/o sending in the notification of out of state travel form.

2. you live in a state where SBS or SBR are illegal.

The fact that you can tranfer an already made AOW for only $5 is also nice. But is is $200 to make the AOW initially.

Tactically, there might be some very limited circumstances where a AOW coudld serve as somer sort of last ditch close defense weapon perhaps, but having a shoulder stock makes the weapon way more useful & versitile.

If you can SBR the AK pistol then just do that, then you can have folding stock & VFG.

Edited by rightwingnut, 27 March 2010 - 03:58 AM.


#18 Matthew Hopkins

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 12:06 AM

I'd love to SBR a Draco, but unfortunately MI doesn't yet allow for SBR, but they do allow AOW. Still, I'm not sure I'd want to spend $200 just to put a Vert grip on it. It might feel nice to hold, but not worth it to me I don't think.


Corbin



IMO it simply isn't worth to spend a dime to make a pistol a AOW. just grab the magazine, it's basically the same thing, it's just a few inches back.

#19 Ben Vampatella

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 08:45 AM

actually, an AOW has to have never been a rifle shotgun or pistol. I dont think even an sbr or sbs can go aow, due to the fact that it had a buttstock attached to it.
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#20 Shandlanos

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 02:35 PM

actually, an AOW has to have never been a rifle shotgun or pistol. I dont think even an sbr or sbs can go aow, due to the fact that it had a buttstock attached to it.



I'm certain you're correct about long guns and sbr/sbs not being legal to convert to AOW, but almost as certain that pistols can be manufactured into AOWs.

Edited to add: I recall having read an ATF letter on wallet holsters explaining that wallet holsters which conceal the weapon in a way that allows it to be fired turn the pistol into an AOW, and that the pistol must be re-manufactured as an AOW in order to remain in compliance. This letter pertained specifically to those little mini-revolvers.

Edited by Shandlanos, 29 March 2010 - 02:37 PM.

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#21 BobAsh

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 02:54 PM

Yes, unfortunately you can turn a pistol into an (illegal) AOW by the addition of a VFG according to a BATF letter that I've seen.
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#22 BobAsh

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 02:59 PM



U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives

Washington, DC 20226

May 4, 2006
Adding a Vertical Fore Grip to a Handgun

“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…. Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).

Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as:

… a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (B) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) as:

… any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e).

ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.

To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun. A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2. The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch.



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